Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[Count Arioch the 28th]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

Only if they have both at the same time.

[Antariuk]

So, if fighters are drawn with bigger tits and cocks than wizards, that affects class balance?

Only if they have both at the same time.

There's probably an archetype for that somewhere.

[Slade]

So, the ACG is out and according to the interwebz, a few problems/loopholes from the playtest made it into the final book. So far, so unsurprising. But I found this little gem from someone defending the ACG's current status:

Anyway, where Insain Dragoon says it sounds like there was no communication between people working on different sections of the book, it isn't a matter of communication. It's a matter of bandwidth and working in parallel. There wouldn't be time to write all the spells, feats, and archetypes after the playtest finishes. That work has to be done at least partially in advance. Which means it gets revised, more than once, when playtest feedback is incorporated and designs evolve. It's kind of like trying to change the tire on a car that's still in motion.

It's a hard job, and I guess what I'm saying is I'm consistently amazed that things come out as well as they do.

Pad yourself on the back for making schedules so tight there's no time to check for continuity errors, since the product got released anyway. Or something.

But I have to admit I am curious about the feats that are supposed to counter whole class features. And a while ago someone here asked for a trait or something that adds CHA to all saves, apparently that need will be served by the ACG as well.

The feat only works if you have mysteries, domains, or other divine 9th level class feature.
Yes, a Pal 2/Oracle 1 can have as x2 Cha to saves.
As does a Oracle 1 if he wishes to emulate Divine grace with a feat.

They do this and then have a feat that limits dex to dam to one handed slashing and rapiers...

[Antariuk]

So, the ACG is out and according to the interwebz, a few problems/loopholes from the playtest made it into the final book. So far, so unsurprising. But I found this little gem from someone defending the ACG's current status:

Anyway, where Insain Dragoon says it sounds like there was no communication between people working on different sections of the book, it isn't a matter of communication. It's a matter of bandwidth and working in parallel. There wouldn't be time to write all the spells, feats, and archetypes after the playtest finishes. That work has to be done at least partially in advance. Which means it gets revised, more than once, when playtest feedback is incorporated and designs evolve. It's kind of like trying to change the tire on a car that's still in motion.

It's a hard job, and I guess what I'm saying is I'm consistently amazed that things come out as well as they do.

Pad yourself on the back for making schedules so tight there's no time to check for continuity errors, since the product got released anyway. Or something.

But I have to admit I am curious about the feats that are supposed to counter whole class features. And a while ago someone here asked for a trait or something that adds CHA to all saves, apparently that need will be served by the ACG as well.

The feat only works if you have mysteries, domains, or other divine 9th level class feature.
Yes, a Pal 2/Oracle 1 can have as x2 Cha to saves.
As does a Oracle 1 if he wishes to emulate Divine grace with a feat.

They do this and then have a feat that limits dex to dam to one handed slashing and rapiers...

You're not kidding? I approve of any and all buffs to the Rage Prophet, but that's a bit ridiculous.

[Juton]

From what I seen it won't let you get 2x CHA to saves, but it pretty much kills the Paladin 2 dip. If you take this feat with divine grace all you get is a measly +1.

This is a really strong feat. I like that, I think feats should be strong and affect characters. What they really should have done is remove those prereqs so that any CHA focused character can snag this feat.

[Rawbeard]

Strong feats? NEVAR! I just stumbled into a discussion about Pageantry of the Peacock. To overpowered, makes the wizards, who put points into knowledge skills feel useless.

Good one! You are joking, of course. You ARE joking, right? Oh fuck, you aren't joking! MUAHAHAHAHA!

[animea90]

I see no reason to be charitable. Saying that people can play a decent class poorly is not the same as claiming that artwork and preferences changes the actual balance point between classes.

Preferences can definitely change balance points.

If someone is in a diplomatic game with little focus on combat, they will place more value on skill points and think classes without those are underpowered. By contrast, someone in a combat only game will think skillpoints are negligible and focus solely on the combat power of classes.

And then we have the balance point of system mastery. Where some classes are better at low system mastery and others are better at high levels. I am sure people on this forum will prefer balance around each class being played perfectly, but most players likely aren't looking online for guides and play mediocrely.

Now, both of these are completely subjective so you are going to have differences in what each group considers good.

No, you're confused; it certainly isn't subjective. The bard is objectively better than the fighter in a diplo game. The raw numbers (and spells on top) are measurably better: Preference doesn't come into it. You may want bards and sorcerers rather than wizards (and still want clerics, because sense motive and some charisma access), but fighters are still shit, but this is all because of the objective numbers that are built into the classes. Subjective preference still has no role at all.

If subjective preference was a factor, you could build a diplo fighter. Strangely (yeah, right), that class still sucks balls and your preference leads to a bad decision.


Quality of play isn't something you can balance around, because it is completely outside of the influence of designers. Bad play or competent play is a reflection of the individual player, not the class. The 5e champion path fighter isn't better balanced because it has no options and is simple to play, and thus requires no system mastery. It remains a piece of shit in all circumstances, it is just more accessible to idiots.

From the developers perspective a good game or good class is based on what the players like. If your player base is entirely idiots than the champion path fighter is better than if your player base is made of geniuses.

[Koumei]

So the moral of the story is "Some games are made for idiots"? That's not much of a surprise.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I want to play a Brawler now.

With the archetype that gives you the alchemist's mutagen ability.

And I want to RP the mutagen as special preserved herbs that I store inside of tins.

[TiaC]

I want to play a Brawler now.

With the archetype that gives you the alchemist's mutagen ability.

And I want to RP the mutagen as special preserved herbs that I store inside of tins.

And a few ranks in Profession (Sailor)?

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I want to play a Brawler now.

With the archetype that gives you the alchemist's mutagen ability.

And I want to RP the mutagen as special preserved herbs that I store inside of tins.

And a few ranks in Profession (Sailor)?

Of course!

[Antariuk]

It seems that the ACG kinda-sorta brought back the flask rogue to PF with the Underground Chemist:

Chemical Weapons (Ex): At 2nd level, an
underground chemist is able to retrieve an
alchemical item as if drawing a weapon. She adds
her Intelligence modif ier to damage dealt with
splash weapons, including any splash damage.
She adds 1/2 her level to Craft (alchemy)
checks. This ability replaces evasion.

Precise Splash Weapons (Ex): At 4th level, an underground
chemist can deal sneak attack damage with splash weapons.
The attack must be her f irst attack that round, qualify for
dealing sneak attack damage (such as against a f lat-footed
target), and be directed at a creature rather than a square.
This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 4th level.

[...]

[Amalie Gaston]

It seems that the ACG kinda-sorta brought back the flask rogue to PF with the Underground Chemist:

Chemical Weapons (Ex): At 2nd level, an
underground chemist is able to retrieve an
alchemical item as if drawing a weapon. She adds
her Intelligence modifier to damage dealt with
splash weapons, including any splash damage.
She adds 1/2 her level to Craft (alchemy)
checks. This ability replaces evasion.

Precise Splash Weapons (Ex): At 4th level, an underground
chemist can deal sneak attack damage with splash weapons.
The attack must be her first attack that round, qualify for
dealing sneak attack damage (such as against a flat-footed
target), and be directed at a creature rather than a square.
This ability replaces the rogue talent gained at 4th level.

[...]

Why even bother giving the ability if they're just going to make it nearly useless?

[Axebird]

They also brought back self-Awakening.

Animal Soul
Your close bond with an animal allows you to use magic
that targets animals on yourself.
Prerequisite: Animal companion or mount class feature.
Benefit: You can allow spells and effects that affect
animals, animal companions, and special mounts to affect
you, even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of
your type. For example, you could cast animal growth or reduce
animal on yourself, even though those spells normally affect
only animals. An ally could cast raise animal companion on
you to bring you back from the dead. An opponent could not
cast charm animal or dominate animal on you unless you chose
to allow the spell to affect you as if you were an animal.

If you can find a way to get your Int drained to 2, you can awaken yourself.

[Rawbeard]

This is to beautiful not to share, I call it "why clerics aren't that great"

And here's the thing about Clerics being 9th level casters, oh my. . ..

Up until 3E, they where full casters, but that only meant they had 7th level spells. Yep, 7th, not 9th. 3E wanted to stream line the system and bumped them up to 9th level spells, but what they did was stretch out the spell levels, literally adding to whole spell levels without many actual new spells to fill in the gaps. That leads to the vast majority of spells of 6th level or higher being extremely underpowered for what they do, when they come online, and what they work against. This generally leads to more than a few entire spell levels being filled with very, well crappy spell options. Unlike basically every other caster, 9th level or not, the Cleric list is also filled with a lot of spells that overlap a lot, rather than stack, (for example, most AC boost offer Deflection, most Save boosts offer Resistance bonus, where even the Druid gets a lot of alternates and variety), and are pretty terrible about scaling. So the truth is, while technically the Cleric is a 9th level full caster, the reality of it in practice is that they are really more like a 6th level full caster.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Well, from what I've seen of 2E D&D, clerics were more proportionately powerful in 2E D&D than 3E D&D, what with the whole accelerated advancement. This is especially the case if you introduce splatbooks into the mix.

Just, no one really seems to bring this up because wizard spells are soul-crushingly devastating. So that's what made everyone sit up and gape. They're still powerful now, but the shit I hear about 2E fireball and illusions... how.

[TiaC]

They also brought back self-Awakening.

Animal Soul
Your close bond with an animal allows you to use magic
that targets animals on yourself.
Prerequisite: Animal companion or mount class feature.
Benefit: You can allow spells and effects that affect
animals, animal companions, and special mounts to affect
you, even if the spells do not normally affect creatures of
your type. For example, you could cast animal growth or reduce
animal on yourself, even though those spells normally affect
only animals. An ally could cast raise animal companion on
you to bring you back from the dead. An opponent could not
cast charm animal or dominate animal on you unless you chose
to allow the spell to affect you as if you were an animal.

If you can find a way to get your Int drained to 2, you can awaken yourself.

If you have friends who can cast feeblemind and awaken, you're golden.

[Kaelik]

Why even bother giving the ability if they're just going to make it nearly useless?

Yeah this. That is not a flask rogue. That is a piece of shit waste of a talent, and I don't even know what talents do.

[ishy]

Inquisitors and warpriests traditionally place the coins on the corpses of those slain in battle, usually one over each eye or one in the mouth.

At 1 gold piece a coin, large battles are going to be expensive.

[Antariuk]

Also, suddenly every inquisitor or warpriest believes in the ferryman Charon? That is some serious horseshit, even for a have-it-all kitchensink like Golarion.

But I quite enjoyed the nerdrage over the Dex-to-damage fiasco with the ACG, especially since JB sneak-peaking another feat from the upcoming Player Companion for the new classes proves that it won't change in the forseeable future. I mean, what exactly is their problem with offering straight Dex-to-damage options anyway?

[Axebird]

Plus Charon is an explicitly evil archdaemon in the Pathfinder setting.

[icyshadowlord]

So now the mechanics are inconsistent with existing lore? I'm not exactly surprised.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I mean, what exactly is their problem with offering straight Dex-to-damage options anyway?

It makes Dexterity even more of a God stat and Strength even more useless. Of course, the 6-stat system of d20 sucks anus anyway so who gives a fuck?

[Axebird]

Not so much a "god stat". You dump some feats for a better Reflex save and Initiative compared to someone wearing heavy armor and focusing on Strength. Especially with the addition of the Belt of Mighty Hurling in UE to give Str focused characters a less horrible ranged option.

Assuming Dex to damage is available as a feat, two characters starting with an 18 in either Strength or Dexterity and a 13 in the other end up roughly comparable in AC with the Dex character having better ranged options and a somewhat higher Reflex and Initiative, while the Strength character has superior melee damage output (and carrying capacity/break checks, but those don't come up as often).

The total is +12 on the primary ability and +7 in the secondary ability, assuming all level bumps go into the primary and you've got +6 stat items and your inherent bonuses. +5 Mithral Celestial Plate is +8 max dex, the best the Dex character is going to get is +8 Bracers of Armor (the plate is 50,000 gp, bracers are 64,000 gp). The plate wearer is looking at +14 armor +7 Dex for a total of +21 to AC from armor and Dex, the bracers user is looking at +8 armor +12 Dex for a total of +20 to AC from armor and Dex. Attack bonuses are identical, save that the Strength character has the option of using a weapon two handed for an extra +6 damage, better returns from Power Attack, and access to Furious Focus. Better flat-footed AC.

The Dex character, aside from the two handed weapon stuff they lose out on (unless you go with an Elven Curve Blade, lets you reclaim the extra Power Attack output at the cost of another feat), ends up +5 on Initiative, Reflex, and Dex-based skills, and with a better touch AC, at the cost of a couple feats. They can get another +1 in every area by dumping Str to 7 and boosting Dex another two points (or upgrading some other abilities), but that nixes Power Attack two handing and limits them to light weapons for Piranha Strike.

It's also worth considering that Reflex is a less valuable save than Fortitude or Will. Fight-ending Reflex saves exist, but are less common than fight-ending Fortitude saves or Will saves- and while failing a Fortitude or Reflex save might kill you, a Will save might turn you into a turncoat.

[Username17]

Plus Charon is an explicitly evil archdaemon in the Pathfinder setting.

Has been in basically all D&D settings since 1983. Charon was one of the big named Daemons in AD&D's Monster Manual II.


Neutral Evil Exemplar

-Username17