League Of Losers

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:59 pm

It sounds like you're going to get totally ruined very early. Vayne is no top laner.

I always build BoRK because of the dueling potential is brings. The overall lifesteal from the passive goes up, but the lifesteal from non-passive damage goes down, so it's better for sustaining in duels and worse for topping off your hit points. BoRK is even better top lane because tanks usually live there and the AS + on-hit effect will let you shred them.

IE is not happening on Vayne. Shiv is a starvation item, and it's components are the same cost as BoRK anyways. BT was popular because it had high AD and Vayne's tumble is based on AD, so it's significantly less important to rush unless you find yourself getting bursted a lot.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:06 pm

I wasn't aware that you could lifesteal off the BotRK passive (the % current health on-hit part). Is that true?

I'm actually pretty experienced with AD carry top, so I'm not too worried about getting dumpstered (and I don't pick it when I don't know what the enemy top laner is going to be). I played a LOT of Corki top back before Phage got nerfed. (Haven't touched it since then.)

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:25 pm

IIRC, all on-hit physical damage procs lifesteal. So Nasus's Q, BoRK's on-hit, Vayne's tumble, etc.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:29 pm

Vayne's top lane is pretty good against a lot of people. She has an escape (tiny though it may be), a knockback, and farms from range. She's great against the champs who can't close onto you from range, and even then she can shove them back and kite them with tumble and autos.

The main thing that sucks about Vayne top is that she has no waveclear, needs to run a defensive summoner in addition to flash (exhaust is quite good on her), and forces her team to run a tanky jungler.

Recommended Vayne stuff for top lane:

Max silver bolts (but first skill tumble most of the time) first. Buy BotRK first. After BotRK you can get a PD or shiv, then go right into an LW or defensive item. Final item should be a BT or IE, depending on if you need more defense or more damage.

Your goal is to split push forever and duel people.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:10 pm

I've been getting Ghostblade second item, which seems all the rage on Vayne right now. If I desperately need to clear the wave I'd buy shiv second item.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:16 pm

Surgo wrote:I've been getting Ghostblade second item, which seems all the rage on Vayne right now. If I desperately need to clear the wave I'd buy shiv second item.

Vayne needs to clear fast because she's usually a split pusher for her team (and shiv adds some more burst to her kit, which is nice to have). Ghostblade is a great dueling item, but Vayne is already god-queen of duels with ult, tumble, silver bolts, and BotRK. If Vayne isn't winning duels she's most likely playing it wrong.

Ghostblade gives you flat armor pen (nice for midgame, negligible late), some AD, some crit chance, and an active that gives you decent AS and MS. Compare that to Shiv which gives you the AS of the ghostblade active, more crit chance, some extra burst and waveclear, and permanent MS.

Most of Vayne's damage (especially with BotRK and maxing silver bolts) isn't coming from her base autos or crits, it's coming from silver bolt procs and BotRK passive + active. Her autos hurt (especially with her ult running and tumble), but she's mostly using tumble to reposition to set up condemns, run away, or catch people out. What shiv is missing in duels is made up for by the permanent MS (get places faster!) and the waveclear so you have the time to move around after you finish a wave off.

The only reason PD is an option is because it lets Vayne transition into teamfights easier if she goes BotRK, PD, IE, LW as her damage items.

tl;dr: I highly recommend shiv for top lane Vayne. It makes her more useful to her team, and her dueling is already awesome.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:18 pm

So I've played some games on the new Sona and it's not as bad as I initially feared. New Sona isn't really that different, all that has changed is you feel worse about yourself playing her because making her Auras do anything for people is like herding cats. Power cord does less in lane but a lot of that power got moved to her Q aura which is basically a mini powercord for the whole family, so your harass combo is now Q->aa->W which remains the freest trade ever with the new shield on your W.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:38 pm

Heads up everyone, there's a BotRK bug where it either won't smartcast or just straight up won't cast at all. A bunch of people were complaining about it today.

Also, AP Janna support is still tits.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:11 pm

I have been bitten by that bug numerous times.

icyshadowlord · Post by **icyshadowlord** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:31 pm

So how does the new champion work?

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:04 pm

He's pretty OK, but it's easy to avoid him if he's close to being mega.

He looks fun because of that bounce ability.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:22 pm

He works by harassing you to death with boomerangs and never missing farm or being caught unless you're quinn/teemo. In Mega form he's a kite-able burst machine.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:03 am

Honestly Gnar is pretty weak. His boomerang doesn't do that much damage and his aa range is pretty short, his jump has a really long CD and Mega Gnar will never do anything because it's so easy to play around. So he doesn't bring anything to the table the existing ranged top laners can't do better. If you're used to dealing with Lulu and Nidalee (or better yet main those champions) Gnar shouldn't be an issue.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:26 am

I've figured out how Gnar is supposed to work!

He's like a Quinn (ranged dps who you build as a tanky dps), but you focus more on tank stats. In fights he's supposed to use boomerangs to slow and just dps in his small form, then he's meant to try and bounce in as he turns into mega Gnar.

He's definitely not overpowered, but he does have a presence that you need to deal with. He's very tanky and kind of annoying. Mega Gnar is pretty much Alistar with fucking huge damage and that rock throw.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:27 pm

Also Tristana is the best adc, that's an indisputable fact at this point right? Sure she has a bit of a dip in her power curve around the point where everyone else get's their first big item, but once she has shiv+i.e. she has such ridiculous damage relative to how safe she is.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:03 pm

I just hate ranged top laners. Until Riot does something magical to fix the melee bruiser problem, I will forever hate ranged top laners. Between mini-gnar's range, disengage, and %HP damage, I consider him second only to teemo in annoyingness.

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:46 pm

Teemo is basically an early game only champion at this point thanks to the nerfs and Gnar sucks. I'd be more concerned about Ryze and Lissandra.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:40 pm

Yeah, I can ignore Gnar, literally ignore him, as Nasus. That is pretty pathetic for an early lane bully champ. At least I have to actively try to avoid giving away teemo shots, but even Teemo is pretty easy to deal with.

Ryze on the other hand, is fucking hell.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:43 pm

Let's talk about Ryze, because fuck that guy.

Is there anything fun about Ryze, either playing as or against him? He's so fucking boring.

Everything he does is targeted and has very little decision making due to his passive (you MUST rotate spells in a certain order for maximum dps). What decisions does Ryze ever make aside from positioning (which is very forgiving because he is a fucking tank) and "who should I dps?" Those are decisions everyone has to make anyways.

Beating Ryze isn't even fun because he's basically a number check with no other options. If he falls behind he's garbage for a long time and doesn't contribute.

What interesting thing does Ryze do that other champions don't? Is he filling a niche? What the fuck does his kit bring to the game aside from "very powerful mid-late game ranged tanky dps champion."

There are plenty of interesting and strong tanky dps champions, I don't understand why Ryze exists except that he's named after a higher-up at Riot. Does the game need a low-range hyper scaling magic damage tanky dps? Could we at least fill that role with something remotely interesting?

If you made it so Ryze had to build squishy to get damage he'd be a more interesting champion. If you took away mana scaling on his spells and gave his Q do a riftwalk style stack mechanic so the more spells he pops off the higher his dps gets he'd be a more interesting champion. Almost any change would make Ryze more interesting because he's shit design (and he's shit design that Riot admits, they say you shouldn't get tons of damage for building tank).

Edit: You can argue Ryze is fun because League is fun, but Ryze doesn't bring anything interesting with his kit. Even Teemo brings something unique and fun, and everyone complains about that fucker.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:17 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Edit: You can argue Ryze is fun because League is fun,

Does there exist anyone on the entire planet who likes Ryze?

Surgo · Post by **Surgo** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:43 pm

I only play Ryze at all because I need someone to pick against certain top lane matchups. I don't necessarily enjoy it.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:56 pm

That's the thing, I think people like Ryze because he's strong rather than anything to do with his design or play patterns.

I don't really have that issue with other champs because they have fun designs, and I love me some AP Teemo (both playing as or against) because he has counterplay. I just don't understand Ryze's design.

Mistborn · Post by **Mistborn** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:30 pm

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:I just don't understand Ryze's design.

Ryze is sort of like Lulu, an invasive species that has gotten out of control in a new environment. As a mid lane champion Ryze's powerful late game is balanced by a weak early game where traditional mids can poke without retaliation. Unfotunately traditional top laners don't have those sorts of tools so he can run right over them and scale up with ease, so he pretty much always ends up going top.

...You Lost Me · Post by **...You Lost Me** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:56 am

Speaking of invasive species, has anyone noticed an influx in the number of top lane AP Alistar? I've been wrecked in two ranked games because top lane Alistar got fed and 2-shot my carry.

Pseudo Stupidity · Post by **Pseudo Stupidity** » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:02 am

...You Lost Me wrote:Speaking of invasive species, has anyone noticed an influx in the number of top lane AP Alistar? I've been wrecked in two ranked games because top lane Alistar got fed and 2-shot my carry.

Blame the EU. It was picked in their LCS and now everybody is picking it (NA LCS included). Tank top lane is in vogue, and cow doesn't have huge mana problems anymore.

I still don't think he's a great laner, but if he can survive the lane he's obnoxious.