Pathfinder Is Still Bad

Avoraciopoctules · Post by **Avoraciopoctules** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:56 pm

Mask_De_H wrote:Minor thing Lago, you mean the Revelry subdomain of Chaos. Whimsy gives you another Hideous Laughter effect. You also probably want Nobility for the Rulership variant channel, depending on what your DM rules for variant channeling.

All this build talk is making me want to play a Cleric because once again they are the master class. What are some neat tricks a Wizard can do besides craft constructs?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-cl ... eportation
Very useful when combined with battlefield control effects. If you fail to trap someone in a force bubble, then you can hide in the force bubble before they can do anything. It's also arguably letting you use dimension door-modifying stuff early.

Wizards can make nice blasters when you combine damage with save-or-lose effects in a single spell, usually through abusing metamagic.

erik · Post by **erik** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:16 pm

I blame this fucking thread for the 2-3 hours I lost last night delving through the pfsrd trying to find good prestige classes since the plethora of tiny adjustments via racial class options and what not mostly bored me. Goddamn if PrCs aren't piles of suck.

I was initially interested in making a Sorcerer gish/archer(?), and fuck if you're not just better off 20 Sorc. I mean, yes, this was true in 3e and 3.5 as well, but I was hoping Gish technology had advanced some in the past 6-8 years since I stopped following such things. My final result was that I'd probably have to talk to my DM and write my own class to do what I wanted (or at least explain that arcane archer's +6 BAB requirement is shittastic).

I didn't want to even get started on having to learn all the minute changes to spells. I still mix up 3.5 and 3e versions.

I think I'll wait until Pathfinder 2nd edition comes out and hope beyond hope that they make it different enough that I won't confuse editions and that they don't fuck it up either. My confidence level is low that this will occur.

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:30 pm

It's hard to get that to work out for a sorcerer, but it's pretty do-able as a wizard. Assuming your GM doesn't prescribe to the insanity of using SLAs to qualify for prestige classes that's in the FAQ;

Wizard 5/Martial 1 gets you into Eldritch Knight.

Wizard 5/Martial 1/EK 3 qualifies you for Arcane Archer as your 10th class level.

Wizard 5/Martial 1/EK 3/AA 3 gets you everything you want out of Arcane Archer without losing more caster levels.

Wizard 6/Martial 1/EK 10/AA 3 nets you CL 17 with BAB 17. You're almost as good as a full caster, but you get fun tricks like tagging people with anti-magic fields using Imbue Arrow. You still get 9th level spells, and you get all your iterative attacks. You could also take a 4th level of Arcane Archer instead of Wizard 6, but you'll have slightly worse saves for a couple extra hitpoints, and 1/day Seeking Arrow (which is kinda useless).

Sorcerer can theoretically do the same thing, but you don't get 9th level spells since you only go up to 17th level casting. If you don't mind being shafted on 9th level spells, it's not a huge deal.

Oh, and if traits are in play you can take Magical Knack to end up with a CL of 19. An ioun stone can boost that up to 20. And if your GM is insane, a race with a 3rd level spell as an SLA (like an Aasimar) you can start leveling into Eldritch Knight as early as 3rd level.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:21 am

Mask_De_H wrote: All this build talk is making me want to play a Cleric because once again they are the master class. What are some neat tricks a Wizard can do besides craft constructs?

Are Clerics really in fact the "master class"? Do they outclass even wizards? I admit, I never really touched Cleric in 3.5 due to lack of interest in religious classes and a GM who would likely enforce needing a religion or god for it.

Also, I think the reason I ask every so often about mixing beatstick with magic is because sometimes you just want to be able to step out onto the battlefield, and be such an ass kicker that your foes lament your coming. Or maybe be like Ganondorf in Hyrule Warriors.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:24 am

If your DM was crazy enough to let that slide, you could actually go Sorc 1/Martial 1/EK 5/AA 3, then ride EK to 10 and finish Sorc. Aasimar get bumps to Wis and Cha so you're golden. Still top out at CL 17/BAB 17 but you come online at 9th/10th.

I'd personally allow it because who gives a fuck, really? It's a neat concept and it's at a level you'll actually get to.

Joda: Clerics can do almost everything Wizards can do except for damage spells and Planar Binding on a better base class chassis and with more abilities. PF gives Wizards abilities, but they give Clerics Planar Binding and fuck damage spells outside of a few of them.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:50 am

Wizards are shit right on your face powerful but they're definitely less forgiving to play than Clerics. On a simple metagaming level the lowered stats and higher difficulty of acquiring new spells relative to clerics means that you suffer more if you fuck up or end up with a DM that spot nerfs spells that offend him.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:20 am

If I was gonna go sorc/EK I would be a native outsider like an ifrit or sylph and meet the martial prof req that way. 6 sorc/3 EK/4 AA/7 EK can be done but I would feel dumb enough losing 1 caster level let alone 2.

And given that I about never get to play past level 10 that would be extra sad.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:19 am

Aasimar are also outsider (Native) so they still work. I totally forgot native outsiders got MWP. You'd qualify earlier (like 0-level) and actually get to Arcane Archer at a reasonable time frame. Sorc 3/EK 5/AA 2 would do you.

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:00 am

According to the PF devs, being a native outsider doesn't give you proficiencies. You need outsider hit dice.

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:45 am

Longes wrote:According to the PF devs, being a native outsider doesn't give you proficiencies. You need outsider hit dice.

Pffft. Then they should have written their entries differently.

Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

That phrase shouldn't have been used if they didn't mean it. Those morons.

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:53 am

Plus they have specific language in the humanoid type that keeps you from getting its hit die related benefits if you're a 0hd race with class levels, which is absent from the outsider writeup. Throughout all their printings (four at this point, I think?) they've never changed it with errata. I don't think they've even released an FAQ on it either.

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:29 pm

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedRaceGuide/raceBuilder/racialQualities.html#type-quality wrote:ARG[/url]] The second difference is that all of these race types are 0-Hit Dice creatures, which means that their Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw progression, skill points, class skills, and weapon and armor proficiencies are based on the class levels each member of a race takes

erik · Post by **erik** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:33 pm

And now I retract my moron-calling for this particular instance. No fair making me read the whole SRD to learn things.

I am now even less interested in making pathfinder chars.

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:08 pm

I maintain my moron calling. The ARG is an expansion. The rules in core remain as they are, and are conflicting, plus that would only cover 0HD races in the ARG.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:55 pm

"herp, derp, native outsiders get all the proficiencies, derp"

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:09 pm

I don't think it's a good idea either. But it's the one Paizo has published in the primary source.

Dean · Post by **Dean** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:45 pm

Fuck aasimirs, trying to early enter classes through pathfinder racial abilities is missing the forest for the trees. This is pathfinder, just play a monster race. Why bend over backwards to make a 10th level character with 9 caster levels when you can make a 10th level character with 13 caster levels, sneak attack and a +15 BAB and puppies and free candy. Playing a monster race was OP in Ad&d, terrible in 3.E, and better than ever in Pathfinder

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:14 pm

Anyone check out the Occult Adventures playtest? Or would you rather wait till it comes out on the pfsrd?

K · Post by K » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:39 pm

radthemad4 wrote:Anyone check out the Occult Adventures playtest? Or would you rather wait till it comes out on the pfsrd?

It just looks really substandard. The classes are just giant blocks of text with tons and tons unique mechanics that call to other unique mechanics, so there is a good chance that only the person with the class and the DM actually understand what the fuck you are doing. Hopefully.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:50 pm

Undercasting might be a good solution to the nova problem with psionics, but the classes are way too fucking dense.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:21 pm

I looked at the playtest. I just find the classes to be very meh.

Count Arioch the 28th · Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:42 pm

I tried reading it, and found it very hard to keep all the fucks I give from fleeing into the night.

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:00 pm

The Kineticist is kinda like a warlock, if they got dicked over harder by energy resistance and had even less interesting options.

The Medium is a clusterfuck binder clone where the spirits you can bind depend on comparing their alignment and ability score to the last one you bound and based on what they share you get different abilities and oh my god they unironically made a class that uses the word quaternary in a class feature. For bonus points the final thing is supposed to have 54 spirit options- note that each spirit has an alignment, an associated ability score, a "seance bonus", and four tiered special abilities.

The Mesmerist is a six level caster with a focus on hypnotizing allies into being better and enemies into sucking or being charmed. Has 3/4ths BAB and absolutely no incentive to make use of it.

The Occultist is a six level caster who casts through objects that are thematically important. Gets special abilities by investing "mental focus" into their implements in a vaguely Incarnum way. Has 3/4ths BAB and no reason to attack anyone.

The Psychic is an int based sorcerer. It kinda reads more like a big-ass bloodline/archetype than it does its own class.

The Spiritualist is a summoner if they didn't have the summon monster SLA and their eidolon was a kinda cruddy pseudo-ghost instead of a combat monster.

The Psychic, Spiritualist, and Mesmerist are pretty dull and straight forward classes. The Kineticist has some cool ideas but falls on its ass since their primary resource is carving up their health with nonlethal damage that can't be healed and they have weak options that don't relate to their crappy at-will laser. The medium is ridiculously complicated for what amounts to a 3/4ths BAB class with 4 level casting and nothing good enough to make that not horrible. The occultist has potential to be kinda neat, but as is their one really good trick is to invest everything they have into a fueling a power called Shadow Beast that summons shadow conjuration summon monsters that scale up at the same rate as full casting and are 50% real. At 20th level they can do that somewhere in the ballpark of 35 times per day.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:32 am

Axebird wrote:The Kineticist is kinda like a warlock, if they got dicked over harder by energy resistance and had even less interesting options.

Or it's like the Pathfinder alchemist class with an extremely tiny spell list (so far).

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:49 am

Sort of. But Alchemists have limited bombs per day, more burst potential since they can full attack with them (with a discovery, and can use TWF and Rapid Shot), and do much more interesting things on a hit. Kineticists are limited to a small number of SLA options, they don't get casting.