Pathfinder Is Still Bad

ishy · Post by **ishy** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:19 am

Paizo actually FAQ'd (Errata) monks to be stronger

Count Arioch the 28th · Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:31 pm

The "monk unarmed strikes hit incorporeal creatures as if they were magic" is such a common house rule that I occasionally forget that it's not actually a rule.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:49 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:The "monk unarmed strikes hit incorporeal creatures as if they were magic" is such a common house rule that I occasionally forget that it's not actually a rule.

That's okay, because Pathfinder said they were going to errata it over a year ago, but they just can't seem to get around to doing it.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:09 pm

Axebird wrote:Sort of. But Alchemists have limited bombs per day, more burst potential since they can full attack with them (with a discovery, and can use TWF and Rapid Shot), and do much more interesting things on a hit.

An alchemist goes nova by using up his limited bomb uses and a kineticist goes nova by taking burn damage, but the principle is similar. And yes, the list of alchemist bomb types is longer than the list of kineticist add-ons (which is not surprising).

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:43 pm

how does Pathfinder justify the limitation alchemists have of bombs per day and 'only the alchemist can throw them' in a way that doesn't sound like 4e?

Longes · Post by **Longes** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:59 pm

OgreBattle wrote:how does Pathfinder justify the limitation alchemists have of bombs per day and 'only the alchemist can throw them' in a way that doesn't sound like 4e?

Alchemist is a technocrat from Mage, and bombs are a Forces effect. They don't work for other people because they don't believe in magic enough.

name_here · Post by **name_here** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:30 pm

I think the official explanation is that they're not exactly our modern sort of bomb and keeping them explosive without blowing up in your face demands skilled labor.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 8:45 pm

Kinda disappointed that they fucked up Occult Adventures. The Beguiler is my favorite 3.5 class and the Summoner is my favorite Pathfinder class. I was kinda hoping for more great stuff in that vein.

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:26 pm

It's not out yet. Theoretically they could fix the problems before release. After the Advanced Class Guide I kinda doubt it though.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:07 pm

Does anyone on here know of a way for a cleric to cherry pick certain wizard transmutation spells like Blood Money or Telekinesis without losing caster levels?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:29 pm

I know you said 'cleric', but:

Oracles have this archetype.

Shamans have the Arcane Enlightenment hex.

And finally, for all divine spellcasters you have this bojangles. Be sure to pack plenty of pearls of power and/or wands of Channel the Gift. Clerics still have the hardest time using this feat, but I'm sure you can cook up some special roleplaying bullshit that will let you use the feat while largely playing the same character you want.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:31 pm

Dreamed Secrets feat. Lets you add two Sor/Wiz spells up to one level below the highest you can cast to your list, and can be different ones each day.

Requires a DC 20 Will save to cast them, but hey, you're a Cleric.

Edit: Ninja'd

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:19 pm

Just be a Samsaran.

Pixels · Post by **Pixels** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:36 pm

TiaC wrote:Just be a Samsaran.

As nifty as they are, samsaran don't cross the arcane/divine gap.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 9:36 pm

Pixels wrote:
TiaC wrote:Just be a Samsaran.
As nifty as they are, samsaran don't cross the arcane/divine gap.

Hm, true. Could have sworn there was a domain with Telekinesis though.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:49 pm

I'm monkeying with constructing a spellcasting cleric with a splash of melee (by which I mean wields a longspear to keep out of reach and stab foes with AoOs that get too close), and am trying to figure out feats and domains. Lago's list a couple pages ago was helpful, but I'm wondering if I should go with two castery domains (Void and Artifice (Construct), perhaps), or one caster domain (Void, Artifice (Construct), or Darkness), and one more fighty domain (I have no idea, Destruction (Rage) or Glory (Heroism), maybe?)

Also, feats. I was looking at the aforementioned one for cherry picking wizard spells too, and maybe Combat Reflexes, but don't know otherwise.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:12 am

If you're doing a reach build, Combat Reflexes (and some dexterity to go with it) is mandatory. Mid-level reach clerics may also want to consider dipping into the Improved/Greater Trip line, too, because they can pump their attack bonuses respectably high enough to reliably nail the CMB check.

However, the big dilemma you're going to be facing with Reach cleric builds is whether you want to emphasize melee damage, you're content with (increasingly irrelevant) zone of controls, or just seeing your longspear use as a bridging build for the low levels. The reason why I pushed the Cleric Monk and Cleric Archers builds earlier was that they can get quite high damage bonuses without dipping too much into their stock of feats, which generally is the soft cap on damage. Other kind of clerics have a significantly harder time doing so, to the point where if they want to throw down enough damage to make monsters care they have to consider options like STR + polymorph builds and nicking Good Hope. If you're not planning on advancing past level 9 or so this isn't a big deal at all, but your damage really starts dropping off past then even if you're using stuff like haste boots and your extra iterative attack.

EDIT: You might find this guide helpful, too.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:19 am

While pumping melee damage sounds nice, I fear that it would suck up too much of my resources for my liking, since I don't want to compromise my casting that much. I suppose that the spear is mostly just a bridging thing for low levels, possibly with a zone of control or whatever damage i can pump with just spell buffs and possibly a domain.

Also, of your list of worthy domains, what would you say the top 5 for caster focused clerics would be?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:36 am

'Caster' is too broad of a term. If you mean 'blaster' (or, as I should've said in the first place, 'battlefield control') cleric, I recommend some combination of Void, Charm, Luck (Imagination), Darkness (Night), and Earth [Caverns]. Though keep in mind:

[*] If you're going Veiled Illusionist (and if you're a battlefield control cleric, you need a strong reason not to go this route), the Darkness/Luck domain isn't as much of a must-have. It's still not a bad domain to have because, you know, domain slots but you should consider something else unless you're doing the level 1 to beyond slog or you're being cockblocked by deity choice.
[*] If you have a domain that already gives out GREAT options nearly every level (like Charm or Darkness) you don't have to double-pick two battlefield control domains. It's not a bad idea to pick up a domain that gives general utility like Water [Flotsam] or Trickery (Innuendo) or Freedom.

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:03 am

At mid levels, the Fortuitous weapon property can help you keep a reach cleric scaling. It still falls off a bit (no haste extra attack or 3rd iterative), but it helps quite a bit- especially since you can keep your enhancement bonus on your weapon solid with greater magic weapon and a bead of karma.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:21 am

Ok, I think I should just say "screw it" to the spear thing, and just go full casting focused cleric. Probably battlefield control as described before. Since when I actually have a chance to play said cleric, there exists a high chance of me being the only caster in the party, I'll want to be able to access some of the wizard mojo too. Between the Dreamed Secrets feat and a good domain, I should be able to be a plenty good "wizard" cleric, so it's mostly a matter of domains. I was thinking either Void or Darkness along with either Artifice (Construct) for the creation spells and free animate objects, or Water [Flotsam] for free creation of stuff. Also, the character I have in mind is not too big on magical mind control, so the Charm domain doesn't really fit. If eventually taking Veiled Illusionist, would Void and Construct or Flotsam be a good combination, or would there be a better combination for a pure magic cleric (that is, one who sits in the back and throws out awesome spells, rather than slashing or stabbing or bashing with weapons.)?

Axebird · Post by **Axebird** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:09 am

Yeah. Dreamed Secrets means you have access to pretty much any downtime wizard spell you like, which is pretty sweet. Go nuts making simulacrums of demon/empyreal lords and stuff.

Water [Flotsam] is really cool later but it's balls until you get Flotsam's ability; Icicle is one of the worst kinds of domain abilities. If you can stomach that (and want the domain spells), it's solid.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:04 am

Watch out when using a spear in Pathfinder. Unlike 3e, it has openings:

Code: Select all

3e longspear&#58;
XXXXX
X   X
X O X
X   X
XXXXX

Pathfinder longspear&#58;
 XXX
X   X
X O X
X   X
 XXX

So your enemies just have to move like bishops to avoid the AoO.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:12 am

Actually, the Paizo FAQ simultaneously says that (with a 10ft reach weapon) you do not threaten diagonals and that you will still get an AoO for people approaching you on a diagonal. Sean K. Reynolds declared that AoO's were measured using Warhammer-style ruler distances on the abstraction created by the grid. A square one away on a diagonal is 5ft. A square two away on a diagonal is 15ft. Your reach weapon creates a literal band on the grid at 10ft, and anyone who crosses that band provokes an AoO. It is impossible to move from 15ft to 5ft without crossing this band. Ergo, you get the AoO. Also, this band is not actually a band, because it uses grid distances and grid distance corresponds to different real distances for straight movements, odd diagonal movements, and even diagonal movements. So it's really just eight non-contiguous segments from two different circles.

If this sounds fucking stupid to you, that's because it is. The real story is that for whatever reason, Pathfinder omited 3.5's "reach weapons count all diagonals as one square" rule. When asked for clarification on whether this was intentional, one of the devs made an official statement in the FAQ acknowledging that reach weapons follow the 1-2-1-2 diagonal counting rule. This lead immediately to the problem you describe, and having been shown conclusively that their decision was fucking stupid they saw the error of their ways and corrected themselves like mature adults Sean K. Reynolds added an unnecessarily complicated pile of bullshit into the FAQ to fix the problem.

Paizo is staffed by defensive and insecure manchildren. Seriously. They cannot admit to or learn from their mistakes, and they will go to ridiculous lengths in order to avoid going back on a decision they've made once they've made it. It's why the FAQ is such a hilarious sack of fail.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:41 am

DSMatticus wrote:The real story is that for whatever reason, Pathfinder omited 3.5's "reach weapons count all diagonals as one square" rule.

That's because there are some rules (or rule snippets) that are not in the SRD but that are in the corresponding 3.X core rulebook.

DSMatticus wrote:They cannot admit to or learn from their mistakes, and they will go to ridiculous lengths in order to avoid going back on a decision they've made once they've made it.

There's definitely a reluctance to say "oops, we overlooked that" in favour of trying to solve issues with pretzel logic.