Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[rasmuswagner]

So, between the Druid and the Wizard, which one would you say has the "better", stronger spell list?

The Druid list is nice enough, you can always find a buff, blast, mobility or battlefield control spell, but it's not the Wizard list. Nothing is.

[Archmage Joda]

So, how would a conjurer wizard deal with foes on his own? Just by bringing summons down upon their heads? (Maybe it's a solo game or something, but at any rate I'm asking in a case of said wizard doesn't have a party backing him up, and isn't a dedicated blaster build, because apparently that sucks monkey tits)

[Orca]

Do you want to put any sort of level range on that? The answers won't be the same at level 1 and level 20, or at various points between. And it's not like there's only one effective build of conjuration wizard, either.

[nockermensch]

Any reviews about Path of War?

[Archmage Joda]

Do you want to put any sort of level range on that? The answers won't be the same at level 1 and level 20, or at various points between. And it's not like there's only one effective build of conjuration wizard, either.

Well, given my group and the tendency to split the party even knowing it's a bad idea, it'd probably be starting at level 5, and I am aware there's more than one effective approach, I was simply hoping for examples of different approaches a conjuration wizard could take to being effective on their own, since the only one I can think of is by way of summoning and calling minions.

[TiaC]

So, every so often, Paizo will print something insane. This one is very nice, but on a mediocre class. Potion Glutton allows alchemists to quicken all their spells. Expect errata FAQ soon.

[Insomniac]

The prerequisite of worshipping...

Prerequisite(s): Worshiper of a god of gluttony, disease, and undeath

Likely keeps this from being bonkers.

Now, that being said, what if you re-skin it/change the fluff and keep the crunch? Wouldn't it make more sense for this to be associated with a Good God, Cayden Cailean the Ascended, The Lucky Drunk?

Why not call the feat Chug A Lug, Down the Hatch, Binge Drinker or Pound A Shot?

[Dean]

Clearly the best name for it would be Potent Potables. Even with all swift action buffs the Alchemist isn't broken. If anything that would improve his playability and let him count as a big-boy class who doesn't have to feel like a limp dick around the spellcasters.

[Shiritai]

Yeah, I agree with Dean. Without that feat alchemists essentially take a full-round action to "cast" (move action to retrieve the extract, standard to drink it), and even with the feat they're not drinking 2 extracts/round unless they start their turn with one in hand.

[hogarth]

Without that feat alchemists essentially take a full-round action to "cast" (move action to retrieve the extract, standard to drink it) [..]

Not true. "An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action."

Having said that, I don't think the ability to use two buffs in a round is mind-blowingly awesome, but I dislike that feat on principle ("it's okay for bad guys to get all kinds of cool stuff for cheap because it can't fall into the hands of the PCs!").

[erik]

I'm entertained by: "Worshiper of a god of gluttony, disease, and undeath"

Maybe they meant 'or' and just don't know what words mean. That's an awfully specific restriction. Sounds like they just as well should have named the deity if filtering it that much.

How is Pathfinder on lost prerequisites? Do you lose feats if you no longer qualify for them?

And +1, "Down the Hatch" is a way better name for the feat.

[hogarth]

I'm entertained by: "Worshiper of a god of gluttony, disease, and undeath"

Maybe they meant 'or' and just don't know what words mean. That's an awfully specific restriction. Sounds like they just as well should have named the deity if filtering it that much.

The deity name was stripped from the d20pfsrd version because it uses the OGL. The actual book presumably refers to Urgathoa.

http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Urgathoa

[Shiritai]

Without that feat alchemists essentially take a full-round action to "cast" (move action to retrieve the extract, standard to drink it) [..]

Not true. "An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action."

Huh, the pfsrd is mysteriously missing that key piece of text. Thanks for the catch.

[Insomniac]

Has anybody ever tried an investigator? They are like a Rogue that gets mechanically straightjacketed into being Melee only because if they didn't, nobody would ever play a Rogue.

They have some abilities like Studied Opponent (Half level insight bonus to attacks and damage) and some sort of Sneak Attack thing. They use the Alchemist spell list.

Is there anything to do with them? They seem neat.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Studied Opponent is crap because you can apply it at most to two strikes in a round. The investigator talents are crap because you're locked out of the good stuff until near the end of the game, when you don't care. The spellcasting is also crap because you gain it at a 2/3rds rate (at level 9, you will still have 3rd-level spells--sorry, extracts) and the alchemist list isn't even very good. The best formulae makes you a better short-range combatant but the stuff isn't as good as even the inquisitor; you don't get much plot fuckery stuff at all, so your spellcasting is a sham that's only good for increasing your combat prowess, 4E D&D style. The icing on the urinal cake is that the class is MAD what with being a melee combatant that needs intelligence to justify picking it over a rogue skill-monkey at low level and to use its 'spells' at all. Weapon Finesse won't even really help you close the MAD gap because you don't even get your first die of pseudo sneak-attack until level 4. Yes, as a level 3 character I sure would love to dish out 1d8 + 1 damage as a melee combatant unless I rolled Da'Vane stats.

Basically, it's a stupid-ass class that sits in power between a 3.5E D&D rogue and a Pathfinder rogue. It has a ton of stupid bullshit you can do which you don't care about because it's all smalltime crap and is subject to action clog.

[Insomniac]

Hmm, and here I just say combat boosting and 6th level spells and just assumed it wouldn't be a trap.

Yeah, I think Inquisitor is the way to go. Just something like Animal Domain with Boon Companion gives you a better spell list, better attack boosting and a nice flanking buddy.

Most of the Investigator talents look really good until you see how JACKED the pre-reqs are. 2d8 to every attack with a weapon of choice sounds pretty good, prereq 19th level. By the time you're in a 19th level party people are too busy summoning multiple buffed Solars and yanking Wish, Miracle and Time Stop and a bunch of broken cheese out of their cellars. But you're +9 to attack with rapiers!

Melee seems like a big time trap in the edition too, and being 3/4 BAB with a poor Fortitude save makes the early levels Hell and the top ones unappealing, too.

Thanks for talking some sense into me. Trap Class all the way, then?

[Mask_De_H]

Speaking of the Inquisitor, I wonder if is it the best of the 2/3rds casting classes? Decent attacking chassis, the ability to pilfer domains/get a flanking buddy and a solid enough spell list seem like a winner. My guess it's either that or the Alchemist.

So, gun to the head/no ability to play a full caster, which 2/3rds caster gets the nod?

EDIT: I completely forgot the Summoner exists. They definitely win. So who's the runner-up?

[Night Goat]

I'm not that familiar with Pathfinder-only classes, but I think I'd go with the Summoner. You get some good buff, debuff and control spells, and the Eidolon looks like it's probably better than an animal companion.

[TiaC]

I'd say Summoner by virtue of having accelerated spell access. Alchemist can be nice if you use all the tricks like Potion Glutton. I don't know Inquisitors that well, so I'll stay silent on that. Out of the ACG, Hunters might be decent.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Also: Bard, Inquisitor, Paladin, and Warpriest are usable as narrowly-focused melee asskickers from level 1 until about level 9-10, if you pick the right archetypes, min-max to the hilt, and have two other people cover 'real' spellcasting. A ranger performs barely adequately for that expanse of time, but there's almost no reason to pick one over a druid with that archetype I keep shilling. Upgrade that to absolutely no reason if you play a Samsaran and plunder the few good spells they have on their list, unless you've got a serious hard-on for full-BAB. Which you don't, because Pathfinder Manyshot + Rapid Shot.

[Dean]

Summoner by a mile then second place is Alchemist. They have great archetypes to choose from and can fulfill a lot of roles satisfactorily as well as having the ability to do ridiculous amounts of irresistible damage if they go nova with force bombs.

Ordering the Inquisitor, Bard, Warpriest, and Investigator in order of power would be hard, but I just did it and that's the order I'd go in. Inquisitor is fine but I've been at the table with one and it really struggled to keep up beyond level 9. Everything else looks like it would be even worse but I haven't studied the Bard or Warpriest as well as I've investigated the others.

If you had to play an Investigator see if you can play the one they originally released in their alpha packet. It was a great class before they nerfed it with the intention of not making it overshadow ROGUE which by definition all classes and animal companions will do.

[TiaC]

Lago, Dean, what about the Hunter and Magus?

[Silent Wayfarer]

Hunter is a 2/3rd caster druid/ranger who's locked into an animal companion, but said animal companion gets all your teamwork feats and you get more teamwork feats to begin with. With proper optimization you can turn yourself and your pet into a horrific mass of murde. The Packmaster archetype, combined with some other way of getting an animal companion (such as Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) or the Additional Animal Companion feat), you can do it with multiple animal companions.

It's a bit like the drone rigger in Shadowrun at that point.

The Magus is better and worse than the Duskblade of 3.5. They're both meant to be melee caster hybrids, but the Duskblade emphasizes fighting more while the Magus has better spells and class features (arguably). Magus has fun archetypes (bladebound, hexcrafter, kensai) and the ability to ignore the spell prep system via the arcane pool system, and has a much better ability to make full attacks (combine a movement spell with arcane strike) and self-buff (arcane pool) than the Duskblade, especially since its spell list gets a bunch of good wizard spells and it gets to just flat out add 14 spells of level 0-6 from the wizard list to itself at level 19 (this is not meant to make it better than the wizard, just better than the duskblade). You also get a decent selection of bonus feats and the arcana system usually ends up being better than equivalent feats. It's one of the better blends I've seen, even if I think it should have had some way to get full BAB without Transformation.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Magus just isn't very good. You don't have a good passive damage booster, don't get spells that kill people, your defenses are pretty naff, and the class is MAD. Your 3/4ths BAB hurts you quite a bit because you can't really benefit from two-weapon fighting (even if you fist-fight) and can't wield a weapon in both hands.

Spell Combat is really the closest the class comes to being able to do anything and even then it's just not very good. Being able to drop an 10d6 extra damage from a spell coupled with a round of neutered attacks just doesn't compare to just making 5 attacks with +10 extra damage stapled on top of it -- a standard of asskicking inquisitors, bards, alchemists, and warpriests with the right archetypes can reach.

Bottom line, if you're going to be any good as a 2/3rds spellcaster that doesn't get spells that nuke people or advance the plot, you need to have some sort of force multiplication or extra action trick. Spell combat almost qualifies but it just doesn't go far enough.

[Silent Wayfarer]

Spell Combat is really the closest the class comes to being able to do anything and even then it's just not very good. Being able to drop an 10d6 extra damage from a spell coupled with a round of neutered attacks just doesn't compare to just making 5 attacks with +10 extra damage stapled on top of it -- a standard of asskicking inquisitors, bards, alchemists, and warpriests with the right archetypes can reach.

How do Inquisitors do it, judgement? bane?

Also I find that Dervish Dancing magus tends to shrink the requirements to Dex and Int, and if you put on mithral celestial plate armor you get to max out your AC and Dex bonus while being able to run around with blur and mirror image. But it doesn't have the damage output of, say, a Dawnflower Dervish so everything else is largely true.