D&D 5e has failed

[Josh_Kablack]

You don't see much in the way of magic items in fantasy fiction at all (at least compared to D&D),

It's rare for a character in fantasy fiction to personally own more than 3 magic items (Sting, Ring of Invisibility, Mithral Shirt; Club, Nemean Lion Skin, Arrows Poisoned with Hydra Blood, etc). And in cases where characters do have more than three it tends to be more like "one set of thematically linked items".


This really means that in fantasy RPGs designed to simulate the source material: class and level abilities should keep you relevant to level-appropriate opponents and then magic items should give you abilities that are sweet, but not required to fight the opposition you are expected to fight.

[MfA]

So sweet but not actually sweet.

[FatR]

So sweet but not actually sweet.

If you say that the model of mandatory magic items does not completely fucking suck, you are wrong. Literally the only thing that the "PCs cherry-pick their own gear" does is adding time to character generation, complexity to numbers on charsheet and more exploitable loops to the mechanics. But the end result in 3.5 is exactly the same as if gear did not exist and monsters had their numbers dialed down appropriately. Except with above-mentioned hassle and worse flavor.

[MfA]

No, what I'm saying is that even if an item doesn't shift the RNG it can still substantially change what encounters you can handle ... and in the mid to high level of the game I don't see players calling anything less than that sweet either.

[hogarth]

Literally the only thing that the "PCs cherry-pick their own gear" does is adding time to character generation, complexity to numbers on charsheet and more exploitable loops to the mechanics. But the end result in 3.5 is exactly the same as if gear did not exist and monsters had their numbers dialed down appropriately. Except with above-mentioned hassle and worse flavor.

Here's an interesting challenge: come up with an example of a D&D magic item that doesn't result in having the PCs fight a slightly different class of monster than they would without having that item.

[Korgan0]

Literally the only thing that the "PCs cherry-pick their own gear" does is adding time to character generation, complexity to numbers on charsheet and more exploitable loops to the mechanics. But the end result in 3.5 is exactly the same as if gear did not exist and monsters had their numbers dialed down appropriately. Except with above-mentioned hassle and worse flavor.

Here's an interesting challenge: come up with an example of a D&D magic item that doesn't result in having the PCs fight a slightly different class of monster than they would without having that item.

Literally every single stat-buff item (gloves of dex, belt of str, etc)? Also, most weapons are invalid solely because of dr/magic.

[Night Goat]

Here's an interesting challenge: come up with an example of a D&D magic item that doesn't result in having the PCs fight a slightly different class of monster than they would without having that item.

Amulet of Health
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Amulet of Natural Armor
Amulet of the Planes
Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location
Apparatus of the Crab
Bag of Holding
Bag of Tricks
Bead of Force
Belt, Monk’s
Belt of Dwarvenkind
Belt of Giant Strength
Blessed Book
Boat, Folding
Boots of Elvenkind
Boots of Levitation
Boots of Speed
Boots of Striding and Springing
Boots of Teleportation
Boots of the Winterlands
Boots, Winged
Bottle of Air
Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals
Bracelet of Friends
Bracers of Archery, Greater
Bracers of Archery, Lesser
Bracers of Armor
Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals
Brooch of Shielding
Broom of Flying
Candle of Invocation
Candle of Truth
Cape of the Mountebank
Carpet of Flying
Censer of Controlling Air Elementals
Chaos Diamond
Chime of Interruption
Chime of Opening
Circlet of Blasting, Minor
Circlet of Blasting, Major
Circlet of Persuasion
Cloak of Arachnida
Cloak of the Bat
Cloak of Charisma
Cloak of Displacement, Minor
Cloak of Displacement, Major
Cloak of Elvenkind
Cloak of Etherealness
Cloak of the Manta Ray
Cloak of Resistance
Crystal Ball
Cube of Force
Cube of Frost Resistance
Cubic Gate
Darkskull
Decanter of Endless Water
Deck of Illusions
Dimensional Shackles
Drums of Panic
Dust of Appearance
Dust of Disappearance
Dust of Dryness
Dust of Illusion
Dust of Tracelessness
Efficient Quiver
Efreeti Bottle
Elemental Gem
Elixir of Fire Breath
Elixir of Hiding
Elixir of Love
Elixir of Sneaking
Elixir of Swimming
Elixir of Truth
Elixir of Vision
Eversmoking Bottle
Eyes of Charming
Eyes of Doom
Eyes of the Eagle
Eyes of Petrification
Figurines of Wondrous Power
Bronze Griffon
Ebony Fly
Golden Lions
Ivory Goats
Marble Elephant
Obsidian Steed
Onyx Dog
Serpentine Owl
Silver Raven
Feather Token
Anchor
Bird
Fan
Swan Boat
Tree
Whip
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Gauntlet of Rust
Gem of Brightness
Gem of Seeing
Gloves of Arrow Snaring
Gloves of Dexterity
Glove of Storing
Gloves of Swimming and Climbing
Goggles of Minute Seeing
Goggles of Night
Golem Manual
Clay Golem Manual
Flesh Golem Manual
Iron Golem Manual
Stone Golem Manual
Stone Golem Manual, Greater
Hand of Glory
Hand of the Mage
Handy Haversack
Harp of Charming
Hat of Disguise
Headband of Intellect
Helm of Brilliance
Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic
Helm of Telepathy
Helm of Teleportation
Helm of Underwater Action
Horn of Blasting
Horn of Blasting, Greater
Horn of Fog
Horn of Goodness/Evil
Horn of the Tritons
Horn of Valhalla
Horseshoes of Speed
Horseshoes of a Zephyr
Incense of Meditation
Instant Fortress
Ioun Stones
Iron Bands of Binding
Iron Flask
Lantern of Revealing
Lens of Detection
Lyre of Building
Mantle of Faith
Mantle of Spell Resistance
Manual of Bodily Health
Manual of Gainful Exercise
Manual of Quickness of Action
Marvelous Pigments
Mask of the Skull
Mattock of the Titans
Maul of the Titans
Medallion of Thoughts
Mirror of Life Trapping
Mirror of Mental Prowess
Mirror of Opposition
Necklace of Adaptation
Necklace of Fireballs
Orb of Storms
Pearl of Power
Pearl of the Sirines
Periapt of Health
Periapt of Proof against Poison
Periapt of Wisdom
Periapt of Wound Closure
Phylactery of Faithfulness
Phylactery of Undead Turning
Pipes of Haunting
Pipes of Pain
Pipes of the Sewers
Pipes of Sounding
Portable Hole
Restorative Ointment
Ring Gates
Robe of the Archmagi
Robe of Blending
Robe of Bones
Robe of Eyes
Robe of Scintillating Colors
Robe of Stars
Robe of Useful Items
Rope of Climbing
Rope of Entanglement
Salve of Slipperiness
Scabbard of Keen Edges
Scarab of Protection
Scarab, Golembane
Shrouds of Disintegration
Silversheen
Slippers of Spider Climbing
Sovereign Glue
Stone of Alarm
Stone of Controlling Earth Elementals
Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone)
Stone Horse
Stone Salve
Strand of Prayer Beads
Sustaining Spoon
Tome of Clear Thought
Tome of Leadership and Influence
Tome of Understanding
Unguent of Timelessness
Universal Solvent
Vest of Escape
Vestment, Druid’s
Well of Many Worlds
Wind Fan
Wings of Flying

[Username17]

There are several things that magic items could do to be justified in the game.

They could be a reward for "doing better." The monster has a hidden magic ring and if you find it you have a magic ring and if you don't... you don't. This kind of magic item is not about balance, but about keeping score. And what you're being scored on is how thoroughly you've managed to loot dungeons.

They could be a patch for characters underperforming. If the Fighter is dragging the rest of the team down, he unlocks the secret class feature "artifact sword" by having the MC place an item for him to use that is more powerful than the rest of the swag the team finds. This system deliberately has no semblance of balance between the items found, because it's supposed to be layered on top of (and mitigate the differences between) characters who already aren't pulling the same amount of weight.

They could be selectable class features. In this model, players choose their own gear, and attempt to differentiate characters one from another. In this model, gear is supposed to be balanced very finely, such that it is primarily an aesthetic choice whether the player wants to be the guy with an ice katana or the guy with the poison glaive.

They could be trophies of your adventures. In this model, you have a poison glaive because you fought the Yuan-Ti and you have a vest of dragon scales because you killed a rampaging blue dragon. A character's heroic history is displayed by the crazy mismatched stuff they are outfitted with.

These are not compatible concepts. To the extent that your magic item system does one of these things, it probably doesn't do the others very well. 3rd edition tried to do #3, and if you think that is actually the worst option on the list, I can't say you're wrong. More specifically, magic items that actually do things never really boil down to a pure aesthetic choice. People end up making the same choices over and over again, which leads to a relentless sameness of characters when the entire purpose of the system was supposed to be to make one character different from another.

-Username17

[hogarth]

Here's an interesting challenge: come up with an example of a D&D magic item that doesn't result in having the PCs fight a slightly different class of monster than they would without having that item.

Amulet of Health
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Amulet of Natural Armor
[..]
Pearl of Power

Huh? These are examples that FatR used of items that do exactly one thing: they allow you to fight slightly tougher monsters or slightly larger groups of monsters. Most of the rest of the items you listed fall in the same category.

I did think of some items that don't boil down to "you're slightly better at fighting monsters" -- for instance, a Decanter of Endless Water or a Lyre of Building. But if my D&D game is 60% fighting monsters, 30% talking to NPCs, and 10% "other" (all values made up, but that's probably not far off in my experience), then it's hard to get excited by items that fall in the 10% category.

There are several things that magic items could do to be justified in the game.

They could be a reward for "doing better." The monster has a hidden magic ring and if you find it you have a magic ring and if you don't... you don't. This kind of magic item is not about balance, but about keeping score. And what you're being scored on is how thoroughly you've managed to loot dungeons.

They could be a patch for characters underperforming. If the Fighter is dragging the rest of the team down, he unlocks the secret class feature "artifact sword" by having the MC place an item for him to use that is more powerful than the rest of the swag the team finds. This system deliberately has no semblance of balance between the items found, because it's supposed to be layered on top of (and mitigate the differences between) characters who already aren't pulling the same amount of weight.

They could be selectable class features. In this model, players choose their own gear, and attempt to differentiate characters one from another. In this model, gear is supposed to be balanced very finely, such that it is primarily an aesthetic choice whether the player wants to be the guy with an ice katana or the guy with the poison glaive.

But it sounds like you're still talking about the same thing in each case: a magic ring, an "artifact sword" and a poison glaive all fall into the "now you can fight tougher monsters" category that FatR is against.

[erik]

I don't think Nightgoat understood the conversation and just thought it would be clever to spam the entire list of wondrous items.

For Frank's examples the ring is not necessarily a booster. I don't know how you could possibly group it since he didn't specify it's function other than as a trophy. It could give horizontal abilities like invisibility allowing different options rather than simply larger numbers.

[nockermensch]

And in today's "biased report of the day", we have this:



EDIT: Post corrected.

[DSMatticus]

And in today's "biased report of the day", we have this:

http://blog.roll20.net/post/10795719471 ... rt-q4-2014

The TL;DR: 5e is now the second most played game in the roll20 platform. Pathfinder remains confortably at #1. Seemingly, 5e sucked players from other systemas, not from Pathfinder.

Also, hilariously, 3.5e is the first place in number of players. Doesn't that most accurately measure popularity?

I think you should visit the bottom of page 26. I hear it's lovely this time of year.

[CapnTthePirateG]

Am I the only one who finds it both sad and hilarious that the 5e elemental evil launch is tied to the Neverwinter MMO?

[Dogbert]

Am I the only one who finds it both sad and hilarious that the 5e elemental evil launch is tied to the Neverwinter MMO?

So was the Tyranny of Neckbeards.

They're not actually tied, just Cryptic Studios releasing versions of the canned adventures as they come up, which means you don't need to pay for 5E to play them since NWO is F2P.

[Ferret]

aaaaaaand Wizards just fired Chris Simms and Jennifer Wilkes

[CapnTthePirateG]

aaaaaaand Wizards just fired Chris Simms and Jennifer Wilkes

I know Chris Simms, not Wilkes. Who is she?

[DSMatticus]

I think they both have 5e editor credits, and Wilkes has done some MtG stuff? Unless I'm missing something big, I don't think it's particularly noteworthy. They don't seem important enough for their layoffs to be indicative of anything other than "sometimes firings happen," and if they are important enough then I am in the dark as to why.

[Previn]

aaaaaaand Wizards just fired Chris Simms and Jennifer Wilkes

I know Chris Simms, not Wilkes. Who is she?

Was a Senior Editor.

[infected slut princess]

WHEN ARE THEY GOING TO FIRE MEARLS

[name_here]

Yeah, seriously, I thought for sure his luck was going to run out this year. He's out of bosses, so I am shocked they're doing another round of layoffs that doesn't include him now that 5e is out the door.

[MfA]

So did the news just get out late or did they get a christmas pink slip like usual?

[Dogbert]

and Wilkes has done some MtG stuff?

If that's true then she must have messed up badly to get demoted to the d&d division.

[Antariuk]

and Wilkes has done some MtG stuff?

If that's true then she must have messed up badly to get demoted to the d&d division.

It's the other way around: since MtG these days has better art, better mechanics, and a better storyline (for fuck's sake!) it doesn't matter who was send down to D&D, it was an improvement in talent anyway.

[Prak]

Basically she was sacrificed in the hopes that it would improve D&D, you mean?

[tussock]

They probably had difficulty explaining why they had editors when they're not planning on putting out any books. You might think they'd start with the designers and developers, but they're still churning out web articles, now with less editorial oversight.