Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[DrPraetor]

You should have a stealth level, which allows you to get away with a certain amount of shenanigans based on how much higher it is than the perception level of the people around you. Three sneaking PCs and three guards should be, at maximum, 6 rolls for the whole encounter.

Also, maybe the Prince is not as stealthy as the Assassin - in fact, pretty obviously he isn't or the Assassin is going to be justifiably upset.

But the Prince needs to be stealthy enough to sneak out of the castle at night.

In order to satisfy the needs of the genre, breaking and entering needs to be unrealistic easy - or, player characters in general need to be unrealistically good at it.

This is why I favor mechanics in which sneaking around is some kind of savings throw (or equivalent) and your level bonus (or equivalent, like Edge or whatever) applies as a bonus to it. It is, like not being killed by a stray arrow at Agincourt - one of those things that is successful because you are a hero.

Since hp play that role in D&D, Dean's suggestion is logical for this - presumably, sniping some fool on your way in or out would cause you to suffer stealth damage? - although I think in practice it would be kinda clumsy.

[Kaelik]

This is why I favor mechanics in which sneaking around is some kind of savings throw (or equivalent) and your level bonus (or equivalent, like Edge or whatever) applies as a bonus to it. It is, like not being killed by a stray arrow at Agincourt - one of those things that is successful because you are a hero.

Indeed, this is why characters like the Hulk, or comparable giant brute characters, always have a part where they just suddenly fucking start sneaking around.

[Fucks]

What would be an solid alternative, then?

New stealth rule: the "stealth" tag.

A character gains the "stealth" tag in various ways, such as using the "sneak" skill.

In order to spot a "stealth" character or monster, you must make a Will save with DC = 10 + Level/2 + (Appropriate ability modifier, typically dexterity). This happens passively once per round, with modifiers if you're not in a featureless empty parking lot.

Hm. What would be the DC check to rolling stealth? How does a good result improve the Will save DC? Can perception be used as an aid skill for the Will save?

[RadiantPhoenix]

What would be an solid alternative, then?

New stealth rule: the "stealth" tag.

A character gains the "stealth" tag in various ways, such as using the "sneak" skill.

In order to spot a "stealth" character or monster, you must make a Will save with DC = 10 + Level/2 + (Appropriate ability modifier, typically dexterity). This happens passively once per round, with modifiers if you're not in a featureless empty parking lot.

Hm. What would be the DC check to rolling stealth? How does a good result improve the Will save DC? Can perception be used as an aid skill for the Will save?

You don't. You have a stealth score, a bit like an Armor Class, and observers roll against it.

This does mostly ignore skills.

[Rawbeard]

This makes stealth kinda passive, how about perception is treated as AC and stealth roll as the attack?

[hogarth]

What would be an solid alternative, then?

The only really important thing to add is some way of noting that you don't need cover to sneak up on a distracted character.

[Dean]

That's not true. Abstracting stealthy actions is important such that we don't need to keep track of who's in cover against whom but there are lots of other important considerations that generally ruin stealth systems.

One problem is that most system don't allow any failure, meaning any rolls bring you closer to failure so interacting with the system is the way to lose it. Making stealth an hp like system allows stealthy characters to potentially succeed at a mission even if not every single roll goes their way. Stealth systems also seem to almost always be planned for 1 on 1 roll offs which is foolish. If your system can't handle someone sneaking past 20 people it isn't good. Radiant's above system, for instance, is an example of a roll off system where any failures cause the stealth game to be failed. As a result if there are 20 people in between a stealthy character and their objective they will almost always fail as someone inevitably rolls a 19 or 20 knocking the character out of "Stealth". Either that or the character will be entirely off the RNG and can move past everyone without ever interacting with the stealth game.

An hp like system where your stealth rating goes down as people make passive perception attacks on you is what will work. It means you want to move by opponents quickly before their notice attacks add up. Higher level characters will have higher perceptions and will naturally do much more damage per successful hit. High level stealth characters will also have stealth DR making them largely unconcerned with large numbers of mooks but still worried about level appropriate characters throwing lots of notice damage per attack. Making the stealth the active part and perception the passive part also allows the PC party to be snuck up on without telling them to roll perception to see if they notice all the ninjas.

[tussock]

You know, AD&D has functional stealth rules. 1st edition of course.

Each side is surprised 2-in-6, but less if a perceptive class or monster, and more if the enemy are stealthy. Using common-sense stealth you can get +1 or +2 (maybe +3) to surprise your enemies, and monsters come with that pre-determined for ambush predators and tricksters.

Stupidly complicated and obtuse in the detail of that, as everything was in 1979 by Gygax, but sneaking past the guards, or at least getting a few free attacks before they ring the gong, it's simple, and most people don't roll anything. Sometimes you get surprise, much more often if stealthy, a bit less often if they're unusually perceptive, and with surprise you can just walk past people who don't know you're there, instead of killing them.


I mean, later editions you'd be crazy to bypass them because you might lose XP, but 1st edition you don't want to fight the monsters, so it even makes sense to be stealthy. I'm pretty sure that's how 3e stealth was supposed to work too, they just don't ever say so in the rules, except in the DMG combat examples where that's kinda how surprise works.

[Fucks]

An hp like system where your stealth rating goes down as people make passive perception attacks on you is what will work. It means you want to move by opponents quickly before their notice attacks add up. Higher level characters will have higher perceptions and will naturally do much more damage per successful hit. High level stealth characters will also have stealth DR making them largely unconcerned with large numbers of mooks but still worried about level appropriate characters throwing lots of notice damage per attack. Making the stealth the active part and perception the passive part also allows the PC party to be snuck up on without telling them to roll perception to see if they notice all the ninjas.

I like that. How would you determine the hp pool size? Based on stealths +level+x?

[Username17]

Actually doing it as AC and hit points is too many rolls. Two rolls per sentry per sneaker per round is too many die rolls. We know this because lots of games tried that with simple opposed stealth vs. perception rolls and it is too many die rolls. Putting all of the die rolls onto one side of the DM screen would speed things up, but it's still too many rolls and I don't want to do it.

What you want instead is to give everyone a stealth number and a perception number and then depending on how they compare there is a checklist of things that would cause one character to detect another. So you have to be a serious badass to continue sneaking after you stabbed someone, for example.

One of the things that give you away is simple proximity. If you roll a decent stealth check, then there's a distance you can sneak up on someone before they detect you. If you roll a shit stealth check, there is still a distance, it just happens to be relatively large and that is where encounter distances come from.

One of the things that can give you away is time in an observer's presence. If you roll a really good stealth check, you can spy on the baron's entire mad speech, and if you don't you can't get out of the vault with the statue before the alarm is sounded. Perception checks can also set set how large an area is considered someone's presence according to terrain, and that is where outdoor encounter distances come from.

One of the things that can give you away is actions. Attacks, obviously, are the ones most people care about. If you roll a good stealth check, you can get off a sniping attack or two without giving away your position.

The whole chart would probably take about a page. But since it covers a lot of scenarios and is important for a lot of subsystems, I consider that acceptable.

-Username17

[ishy]

What if we had no die rolling at all for stealth?

[virgil]

I developed something conceptually similar awhile back, the big difference being the quota of actions that can be done before being noticed doesn't diminish with time; and if you can snipe once without being seen, you can snipe a thousand times without being seen.

[Username17]

What if we had no die rolling at all for stealth?

Then we'd have to model all the vagaries of sight lines and facing and shit that gets abstracted into die rolls for the combat system.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

So:
1. Roll stealth check, record number.
2. GM compares your number to the static perception scores of all relevant NPCs (including modifiers).
3. Whenever you do something that increases an NPC's perception score (like approaching them), the DM compares the numbers again.

You probably make the check at the first moment you could be caught, to avoid 'Oh, I rolled bad. Guess I'll do do something else for now.'.
Presumably there are ways to take cover or otherwise increase your check without rerolling.

[Foxwarrior]

What if we had no die rolling at all for stealth?

It works pretty well, although the lack of an arbiter as a different person from the person controlling the opponents (the DM) does mean that the DM has to go into full roleplaying mode to keep the guards from always doing exactly the things that would be needed in order to successfully notice the intruders. So the guards have to follow sensible walking routes and such. To keep a sneaking scene tense with no rolling, you really have to have some secret information which the players have the option of tripping over and having to deal with, like a really quiet janitor on break leaning against a wall in an unexpected place, or a squeaky door.

[Dean]

Actually doing it as AC and hit points is too many rolls. Two rolls per sentry per sneaker per round is too many die rolls.

Only if you model it to be that way. Catharz has my plan exactly. In my vision the Sneaker makes one stealth check per turn opposed by the passive Notice DC set by the people he is trying to sneak past and how many of them there are. The sneaker's check stays unchanged for the turn unless he takes certain actions like making attacks or interacting with objects both of which force him to make additional stealth checks each time creating additional opportunities to fail. Failing to pass a Stealth check means you take Notice Damage to your SP (Sneak Points). If someone's SP ever reaches 0 they are discovered by anyone who dealt them Notice Damage that turn.

For instance a Thief trying to sneak past 5 Guards adds +2 to the Guards normal Notice checks due to their number. If the Thief's Stealth check surpasses the Guards Notice checks+2 he takes no damage. The Thief's check stays for the entire turn unless he does something that forces him to roll again like opening a door, which creates another opportunity for those Guards to potentially deal damage. If there is a Guard Commander and the Thief's check passes the Guards Notice DC but not the Guard Commanders notice DC then the Thief only takes notice damage from the Guard Commander.

[tussock]

The point of an abstract pool of hit points is that we don't want to deal with the very many possible results of someone putting sharp metal inside you, nor particularly desire to interact with them. Like, is your small intestine still intact, or is the cut at least small enough to maybe form a stable cyst, how long ago did you eat anyway, and how does medieval bowl sectioning work again.

With stealth, you get seen, you might want to talk your way past. Or stab them before the ring that bell. Or draw them into a trap. It's the opposite of wounds, there's only one result of note and you totally want to interact with it strait away.


With count-down stealth failure, how do I interact with the enemy who hurts my stealth points? Is that healing? Do I stab the lone guard to regain stealth points? Does my Eddie Murphy routine get me bonus stealth, even though these guys know I'm here, or is that a different pool of things that I'm counting down? I see complications without benefit. Why would I only interact with the last failure, if earlier ones are more appropriate? If you want reliable stealth that runs out, you can do that with a class feature that overrides the normal function x/day (rerolls can be fun, or whatever works).


Mostly I'm just thinking I tried that whole points thing for various charms and stuff at one point, and discovered that adding and subtraction is bad enough with hit points, more counters is just strictly bad for the game. IME. You'd want a really clear benefit to go that way. Like figuring out which 4 first level spells to prep is only interesting a few times, and breathing fire 3/day is a bit annoying, and having 27 rage points is fucking stupid.

[Grek]

An actual functional stealth system would look something like this:

To sneak, make a Stealth skill check. The result of this check is your Stealth Rating. Anyone who can perceive you while you are making your Stealth check remains able to detect you while you are sneaking. You remain undetected by everyone else as long as your Stealth Rating remains greater than their Perception Rating. A character knows their own Stealth Rating, but not the Perception Rating of observers unless they have a feat or special ability that says otherwise.

You may take up to one move action per round without hindering your stealth. Taking a second move action reduces your Stealth Rating by 1. A standard action reduces your Stealth Rating by 2. Run actions and Full Round Actions reduce your Stealth Rating by 3. Additionally, your Stealth Rating naturally decreases at a rate of 2 per minute sneaking or 1 per minute of hiding in place without moving. Certain actions (such as speaking too loudly or opening noisy doors) may cause additional reductions to your Stealth Rating and certain terrain types (such as noisy metal floors or exceptionally brightly lit areas) may increase the cost in Stealth Rating to move across them. The GM should always inform a character trained in the Stealth skill of such actions and areas before the character interacts with them and before reducing their Stealth Rating. If the character's interaction with the item is do to the player's choice (as opposed to another character throwing flour at them or pointing a spotlight) the GM should generally allow the player to change their mind and take some other action.

Observers have a passive Perception Rating equal to their modifier on Perception skill checks. Actively searching for hidden intruders requires a standard action and a Perception skill check. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. As long as the character continues to concentrate, their active Perception Rating is equal to their skill check result. If something interrupts the character's concentration, they make another Perception check in place of the usual Concentration check to ignore the distraction and continue searching. A character's Perception Rating receives a -1 penalty for every 5' between them and the sneaking character and a +4 bonus if a character who has already detected the sneaking character calls our their location.

[Sakuya Izayoi]

Are there good examples in the books of SLAs that require skill levels to use? So like, at higher levels, Hanzo Hattori leverages his stealth and skulduggery abilities into turning into a cloud of sentient, free-roaming vapor? While Axel Foley might get so good at disguising himself that he, given sufficient props, can effectively cast Polymorph Self several times per day?

[Dean]

With count-down stealth failure, how do I interact with the enemy who hurts my stealth points? Is that healing? Do I stab the lone guard to regain stealth points? Does my Eddie Murphy routine get me bonus stealth

Stealth should be a shallow hp pool that people make attacks against when they try to detect you. The pool should regenerate when it's not being damaged so getting out of sight for a round or two can be a big boon.

If a guard hurt your stealth points your options are: try to leave before being discovered, continue on and hope he doesn't hit you again likely discovering you, find a place he can't detect and spend some time staying there quietly to regenerate your stealth points before trying again, or kill the guard. Attacking the guard would force another Stealth check making it more likely that he and any others around detect you. If you pass the check the guard is still aware that he was shot (or whatever) and would react accordingly likely raising alarm or calling other guards. If you killed him in one shot you've now got a body to hide (interacting with an object) so that no one finds him but once you've done that you can just keep going on your mission with one less guard around.

Are there good examples in the books of SLAs that require skill levels to use?

The Tome of Prowess may be what you want if you've never checked it out.

[Username17]

An actual functional stealth system would look something like this:

To sneak, make a Stealth skill check. The result of this check is your Stealth Rating. Anyone who can perceive you while you are making your Stealth check remains able to detect you while you are sneaking. You remain undetected by everyone else as long as your Stealth Rating remains greater than their Perception Rating. A character knows their own Stealth Rating, but not the Perception Rating of observers unless they have a feat or special ability that says otherwise.

You may take up to one move action per round without hindering your stealth. Taking a second move action reduces your Stealth Rating by 1. A standard action reduces your Stealth Rating by 2. Run actions and Full Round Actions reduce your Stealth Rating by 3. Additionally, your Stealth Rating naturally decreases at a rate of 2 per minute sneaking or 1 per minute of hiding in place without moving. Certain actions (such as speaking too loudly or opening noisy doors) may cause additional reductions to your Stealth Rating and certain terrain types (such as noisy metal floors or exceptionally brightly lit areas) may increase the cost in Stealth Rating to move across them. The GM should always inform a character trained in the Stealth skill of such actions and areas before the character interacts with them and before reducing their Stealth Rating. If the character's interaction with the item is do to the player's choice (as opposed to another character throwing flour at them or pointing a spotlight) the GM should generally allow the player to change their mind and take some other action.

Observers have a passive Perception Rating equal to their modifier on Perception skill checks. Actively searching for hidden intruders requires a standard action and a Perception skill check. This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. As long as the character continues to concentrate, their active Perception Rating is equal to their skill check result. If something interrupts the character's concentration, they make another Perception check in place of the usual Concentration check to ignore the distraction and continue searching. A character's Perception Rating receives a -1 penalty for every 5' between them and the sneaking character and a +4 bonus if a character who has already detected the sneaking character calls our their location.

Pretty sure it would look very much not like that. First of all, it's completely absurd for walking quickly down the unguarded corridor to fuck your stealth tally when you get to the next guarded area. Secondly, to even vaguely come to grips with that issue you'd need to let people reroll their stealth whenever they started creeping again, which since they know their own stealth number is just telling everyone to take 20 all the time.

Really, you just need to generate a stealth number as soon as it is important, and to have it apply to a set of people you are trying to be sneaky relative to rather than being a number that follows you around. And the amount that your stealth number beats their perception (or vice versa) creates a set of criteria that would let them detect you.

Fucking around with modifiers for moving various speeds and shit is missing the point. If you roll good enough that you can move full speed without giving away your position, you should just do that. The key is set of criteria for detection, not counting modifiers. And further, those criteria should be relative. Being in someone's presence for X amount of time should break stealth. But the area that is defined as presence should be defined by their perception check (so more perceptive characters act as sentries over larger areas). On the other side, moving quickly breaks stealth if your stealth and their perception are close enough, but "quickly" is defined by your literal stealth number (low stealth characters have to move at half speed, high stealth characters can do silent running).

It has a couple moving parts, but it could actually work.

-Username17

[...You Lost Me]

Could we do away with the roll entirely? It doesn't seem very useful.

[schpeelah]

Could we do away with the roll entirely? It doesn't seem very useful.

Only if you want players to always know exactly what they can get away with in every stealth encounter with a known enemy and pretty much never get caught, and to have every encounter with enemies of similar perception level go about the same.

[Dean]

How do people think the roll isn't important. I dont know how anyone can make that statement. Clarify your thinking

[Username17]

It seems to me that if literally one single thing in your entire cooperative narrative has uncertain results, it should be acts of stealth. Dude is sneaking by the guard, the guard either notices him or not, the story then branches into having successfully snuck past the guard or having the alarm raised and going to fight or flight. How the actual fuck are you supposed to have that branch point without at least one die roll?

I mean yeah, the whole thing where lots of games want you to roll many dice every fucking round is clearly apeshit, but I don't understand why people are even suggesting bringing the die rolling to zero. You want to minimize rolling, but the case for the minimum being zero is laughably weak.

-Username17