Pathfinder Crash Course

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Shatner
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Pathfinder Crash Course

Post by Shatner »

I've just been invited into a Pathfinder 3.5 game. I know vanilla 3.5 quite well but I don't know diddly nor squat about Pathfinder. Regardless of people's opinions of it, a lot of folks here seem pretty familiar with Pathfinder, so I'm wondering if you all could give me a crash course in how it differs from regular 3.5 edition (or could point me at a website to explain the differences, to save you all some typing).

It doesn't have to be a line-item comparison, just a number of the larger, more generally relevant changes, especially those relevant to someone about to create a new, 8th-level character.

Thanks a ton everyone.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Phonelobster's Pathfinder/3.5 practical player conversion guide

1) It's mostly the same game
So just consider most of your 3.5 knowledge to be applicable.

2) Except Character Creation takes 9 million years
There is like an additional layer (or several) of character creation choices to make for no good reason, there are some great little options but buried in a sea of pointless almost deliberately terrible dross.

You could A) Ignore it and not be badly off, most players even if they select it will often fail to use these lesser non-3.5 options anyway. B) Pick something random and be shit, who cares, again, most players dont use it to it's potential value. or C) Dumpster dive deep for something stupid good then abuse it because that seems to be why it's there.

3) There are things hidden in random parts of the rules that are randomly different for no good reason.
Do not worry about these things. Just ignore them. Most people do. Most people never even READ the damn things and rely on garbled memories of 3.5, 3.0, d20 modern, that one game Ted ran that could have been anything, and maybe childhood memories of 2nd edition basic/advanced.

The actual people who play pathfinder generally do not (accurately) know the actual differences. They MIGHT claim to but as a general rule you can safely say they are actually still playing a vague inaccurate version of 3.5 totally ignorant of actual changes that pathfinder made and if they DO say "this is different in pathfinder" what they ACTUALLY mean is "this is one of my own house rules and I somehow do not comprehend the difference between that and official pathfinder rules changes".

So just ignore the little differences for difference sake.

4) Some spells and stuff have been utterly randomly nerfed for no good reason, or just not, also possibly for no good reason
Just act like they haven't been and generally you'll be fine since most pathfinder players... yeah just refer back to point 3 only for spells and feats instead of basic mechanics.

5) Pathfinder GMs play with house rules
Everyone does, that's D&D, but pathfinder in my experience... more so... I suspect it's because as a continuation of the 3.x family it was BORN "old" and with old rpgs... come countless house rules.

It is more important to learn your GM/Groups stupid fucking critical miss house rule than it is to learn any actual differences in the pathfinder rules from 3.5.

MUCH more important.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DSMatticus »

I don't think there are any larger changes. Pathfinder is 3.5 but different. That it's whole thing. Mechanically... well... make sure you look up the combat maneuver bonus bullshit and figure out how that works. The skill list is slightly different. You get feats every odd level, not every third. Feats suck slightly worse overall, but there are tons of them so... go forth and dumpster dive through this brand new world of garbage. Note the presence of traits (small bonuses that are somehow even less valuable than feats that you get to grab at level 1) and archetypes (an archetype swaps some of your class features for different class features).

The most practical advice I have is that if you find yourself looking at a non-caster class, look harder and you will find a class that can do all the things that class can do but is also a caster. So yes, you should always, always, always, always be at least a partial caster.

Also the FAQ is one long, hilarious string of fuck ups. FAQ ups, if you will. Dread the FAQ. Loathe the FAQ. Piss on the FAQ.
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Post by Shady314 »

There are traits worth MORE than actual feats actually. Because fuck balance and sometimes people don't understand what the fuck they are writing. If your DM is using traits there are some badass ones. If not there is a feat that gets you two traits which could be worth it.

But yeah as others said, you want to play a caster. You will probably want an archetype which is just a package of ACFs.

The most important thing is the SRD. Most DMs Ive found permit far more dumpster diving than usual because they can find almost everything on the site. So go acquaint yourself with it because it's really got all you need to know.
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Post by Prak »

My only real tip is that if you're playing a caster in PF you want your traits to be Outlander (Lore Seeker) and Signature Spell so that you can have +2 CL on one spell and +1 CL on two others that also have +1 DC. I think you might get three traits, but you can only improve your spells with those two, but I could be wrong.
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Post by Username17 »

As mentioned, noone actually plays with or even knows all the differences between Pathfinder and 3.5. It's like how noone really played with all the fiddly changes from 3e to 3.5, but like over nine thousand.

The basic advice is to never ever ever play a non-caster. Because first of all the Combat Maneuver Defense bullshit is something that most DMs will at least try to use, and it spits out numbers that basically make combat maneuvers across the board non-viable at most levels of play. And secondly because Pathfinder lacks objective statements about when and how you can get sneak attack, so you're at the complete mercy of your DM's weird grognardy bullshit house rules as to whether and when you get to do level appropriate damage.

And the third reason that you never ever want to play a non-caster is that Pathfinder constantly throws red meat to casters. Wizards get extra hit points and a brick of class features for no reason. Pathfinder is caster edition. Like, more than 3.5 already was if you can wrap your mind around that.

You'll have to find out what subsystems your DM uses, and how they think all kinds of shit works, and what spells they will allow, and so on and so forth. It's like signing up for a game and being told that the table has house rules about ancestry and social class that influence character creation. So no making a character at home and bringing it in - your DM is probably rolling fucking mouse skulls to assign traits or whatever the fuck.

But basically each spell that is allowed is probably just going to do whatever it says it does. No DM has the patience to line item house rule all the fucking spells in D&D. Pick a caster class, select a pile of spells out of the PFSRD (or Spell Compendium, if allowed), and then rock the house.

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Re: Pathfinder Crash Course

Post by OgreBattle »

Shatner wrote: Thanks a ton everyone.
Ask to be a synthesist summoner, after it's rejected for being 'too powerful', play as a wizard, cleric, druid, or just regular summoner.

If you don't want real ultimate power but want to try out a new class take a look at alchemist.
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Post by MisterDee »

Assuming you'll be playing a normal campaign (i.e. it will fizzle out before level 12, and probably a lot earlier than that), any non-fighter, non-rogue, non-monk class will be tolerable. If you're allowed to dumpster-dive to your heart's content, you can even play some archetypes of monks.

Things that you really need to know:

1-barring extremely rare exceptions, prestige classes are terrible.
2-review the visible character creation changes -favoured class bonuses, how many feats/traits you get, how skills work, the CMB/CMD stuff.
3-If you're planning on using a specific trick/skill, make sure to review the appropriate sections for random changes, and also plug the appropriate keywords in the d20pfsrd. You never know when a random skill investment could pay off in extra points of AC or whatever.
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Post by FatR »

The main differences are:

-There are more viable casters, and they represent relatively wide archetypes, like "Witch" or "Summoner". However you look at it, even Beguiler and Archivist in 3.X were more of a bunch of rules thrown together rather than something people can think of playing before studying 3.X's rulebooks.

-Between this and archetypes, which are a superior substitute for prestige classes that allows you to play your desired theme from level 1, there is no fucking reason to ever play anything that is not at least a 3/4 caster. Nature Fang Druid is a better Ranger than Ranger. Vivisectionist Alchemist is a better Rogue than Rogue. The only arguable exception is Paladin at low-to-mid levels, who might just be better at being a combat monster than Cleric until your Cleric can reliably get Righteous Might and/or Divine Power going every encounter.

-Melee is even more useless past low levels than in 3.X. Sure, if you optimize meticulously with very specific equipment, even martial classes can keep up with monsters, but without dumpster-diving the only way to not suck dicks in melee past low levels is having both a really powerful pet and really good buffs on your spell list. Physical damage is better achieved through ranged attacks.

-Favored class bonuses, archetypes and some other changes make prestige classes generally terrible. Disregard them.
Last edited by FatR on Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Seerow »

It is more important to learn your GM/Groups stupid fucking critical miss house rule than it is to learn any actual differences in the pathfinder rules from 3.5.
Those are the easiest houserules to learn. "Oh they exist? Have a fun game, I'm going to go do something more enjoyable. Like find a vice to put my balls in"
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Post by Pixels »

FrankTrollman wrote:And secondly because Pathfinder lacks objective statements about when and how you can get sneak attack, so you're at the complete mercy of your DM's weird grognardy bullshit house rules as to whether and when you get to do level appropriate damage.
The most bizarre part is the one condition Pathfinder explicitly lists as disallowing sneak attacks: concealment! Rogues in Pathfinder are disabled by things like dim lighting and fog, which just baffles me.
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Post by Axebird »

Concealment already stopped sneak attacks before Pathfinder. It's dumb, but not dumb that's exclusive to Pathfinder.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Pixels wrote:Rogues in Pathfinder are disabled by things like dim lighting and fog, which just baffles me.
With fog (and obscuring mist) you only have concealment beyond 5ft, so someone can still walk right up to you to sneak attack you. I've seen the "beyond 5ft" used as a houserule for dim light conditions. So then you can still stalk right up to someone in the darkness to stab them good.
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Post by Dogbert »

People already covered the castery part, so:

-SoDs were abolished, but SoL are still around, so make sure to load up on SoL.
-There are Traits which grant you extra Class Skills, so mixed with the high Int of a Wizard, you can get a pretty well-rounded character.
-Speaking of Traits, Desperate Casting and Desperate Resolve are pretty much a tax for all casters since Concentration is no longer a skill, and checks are made with your level+Casting stat Modifier, so every bit counts. Still, you can get 2 additional Traits by taking Drawbacks.
-Magic Item creation no longer costs XP, so go nuts. Furthermore, you can cut crafting costs by up to 40% if the items you create "Require possessing a specific skill" and are "Class-specific"... so yeah, custom-tailor your items for you and your cronies always.
-The Necromancy specialization for Wizards is the game's Real Ultimate Power since it gives you Rebuke Undead at lvl 1. Just get a shadow, then a spectre, and then create your undead army. Granted, your Cha is probably low, so you want to cast Command Undead first, and once your prey is pacified just spam Power Over Undead until it sticks.
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Post by rasmuswagner »

Dogbert wrote: -Magic Item creation no longer costs XP, so go nuts. Furthermore, you can cut crafting costs by up to 40% if the items you create "Require possessing a specific skill" and are "Class-specific"... so yeah, custom-tailor your items for you and your cronies always.
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First of all, those rules don't mean "40% discount on all my wands", second, fuck you, third, those are ported over 3.5 rules.
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Post by ishy »

OgreBattle wrote:With fog (and obscuring mist) you only have concealment beyond 5ft, so someone can still walk right up to you to sneak attack you.
That is not true.
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Re: Pathfinder Crash Course

Post by TheFlatline »

OgreBattle wrote:
Shatner wrote: Thanks a ton everyone.
Ask to be a synthesist summoner, after it's rejected for being 'too powerful', play as a wizard, cleric, druid, or just regular summoner.

If you don't want real ultimate power but want to try out a new class take a look at alchemist.
I played an Alchemist once. I managed to piss the DM off because he wanted me to take the jeckell/hyde route and I was like "why?". I don't think I ever used it.

No, Alchemist is a half-assed caster who gets to play Flask Rogue. You don't get sneak attack but you do get extra buffs, bombs, and the ability to cast flight and invisibility on yourself later, which kind of snaps the game in 2.

It's not Real Ultimate Power, but power gaming it a little I believe I hit most creatures, starting at level 1, on like a 3 or higher on an attack roll. Damage doesn't scale well unless you use your bombs, of which you've got like... 10 of them a day or something stupid like that. Plus flying around dropping bombs on people is kind of fun too. So much fun that our GM decided every encounter after that first one was going to occur in places where I couldn't fly.

I think by about level 8 or so the rest of the party catches up to you in damage output if they don't optimize. But what you lack in sheer oomph at that point you make up for by breaking the RNG with ranged touch attacks that you get to add your INT bonus to or whatever it was on anything that didn't have a naturally high dex modified AC.
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Post by TheFlatline »

FatR wrote:
-Melee is even more useless past low levels than in 3.X. Sure, if you optimize meticulously with very specific equipment, even martial classes can keep up with monsters, but without dumpster-diving the only way to not suck dicks in melee past low levels is having both a really powerful pet and really good buffs on your spell list. Physical damage is better achieved through ranged attacks.
This is generally true if memory served. We had a straight up fighter in the party in our one pathfinder game and it basically took the entire party's resources to keep the fighter even remotely useful.

That was a shit game anyway. Second level the DM gives the wizard a rod of maximize and by the end of the game I received a single ring of protection +1 as a hand-me-down that I could actually use. Severe favoritism.

We each were suppose to get this "signature" magic item and the DM gives the summoner a teapot that dispenses an unending supply of perfectly brewed, perfect temperature tea.

First time we decided to like... I think melt through a wall of ice with the teapot since hey, unlimited hot water, the DM said "no I'm not letting you have that magic item" even though we were like 4 *months* past the point where he gave it out.

Anyway back on topic yes, we totally had to dump all our assets into the fighter to afford the gear that kept him from getting outclassed entirely.
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Re: Pathfinder Crash Course

Post by Longes »

OgreBattle wrote:
Shatner wrote: Thanks a ton everyone.
Ask to be a synthesist summoner, after it's rejected for being 'too powerful', play as a wizard, cleric, druid, or just regular summoner.

If you don't want real ultimate power but want to try out a new class take a look at alchemist.
Synthesist Summoner meta is actually hilarious, and something anthropologists could study. Synthesist Summoner is good at one thing - making the fighter non-casters go green with envy at your sick Power Ranger cosplay. At basically everything else SS is worse than the normal Summoner, who can just spam Summon Monster till the cows come home while his animal companion animal companions. But Synthesist Summoner is the one considered OP.
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Post by Axebird »

Come on guys. Pathfinder has no shortage of things to talk shit about but at least verify your claims.
Speaking of Traits, Desperate Casting and Desperate Resolve are pretty much a tax for all casters since Concentration is no longer a skill, and checks are made with your level+Casting stat Modifier, so every bit counts. Still, you can get 2 additional Traits by taking Drawbacks.
Both of which are "Magic" traits, and you can only take one trait from a given category. They also both provide trait bonuses, so they wouldn't stack anyway.
Magic Item creation no longer costs XP, so go nuts. Furthermore, you can cut crafting costs by up to 40% if the items you create "Require possessing a specific skill" and are "Class-specific"... so yeah, custom-tailor your items for you and your cronies always.
Which is a straight rip from D&D, and doesn't obviate needing to ask your GM about custom stuff you're making.
No, Alchemist is a half-assed caster who gets to play Flask Rogue. You don't get sneak attack but you do get extra buffs, bombs, and the ability to cast flight and invisibility on yourself later, which kind of snaps the game in 2.
Being able to turn yourself invisible at 4th level or fly at 7th doesn't break shit any more than normal casters doing it levels before you does. Especially since you can't even full attack with bombs until 8th level (and at that point it's a nova option that burns your bombs/day quickly).
It's not Real Ultimate Power, but power gaming it a little I believe I hit most creatures, starting at level 1, on like a 3 or higher on an attack roll. Damage doesn't scale well unless you use your bombs, of which you've got like... 10 of them a day or something stupid like that.

I think by about level 8 or so the rest of the party catches up to you in damage output if they don't optimize. But what you lack in sheer oomph at that point you make up for by breaking the RNG with ranged touch attacks that you get to add your INT bonus to or whatever it was on anything that didn't have a naturally high dex modified AC.
Either your reading comprehension failed you for months at a time or you were straight up cheating. It's just a normal ranged touch attack (BAB+Dex+Misc), you add Int to damage. And bomb damage is never very impressive, the best it does is some decent AoE at low levels for slaughtering chump warrior 1s and whatnot, and at higher levels carries nice rider effects from discoveries. And you get Level+Int bombs per day if you don't take any other options for it (hobgoblins and kobolds can burn their favored class bonus for more, and there's a shitty feat that gives you two extra bombs per day).
Synthesist Summoner meta is actually hilarious, and something anthropologists could study. Synthesist Summoner is good at one thing - making the fighter non-casters go green with envy at your sick Power Ranger cosplay. At basically everything else SS is worse than the normal Summoner, who can just spam Summon Monster till the cows come home while his animal companion animal companions. But Synthesist Summoner is the one considered OP.
First, you're right about Synthesist summoners basically just making martial characters feel like crap. But normal summoners can't use their summon monster SLA while their eidolon is out and can only have a single use of it active at a time (if they use it again, the last casting just ends). Casting summon monster out of their spell slots is kinda crap compared to just using control spells and stuff, since they're slightly behind and have no more advantage doing that than a normal caster.
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Re: Pathfinder Crash Course

Post by rasmuswagner »

Longes wrote: Synthesist Summoner meta is actually hilarious, and something anthropologists could study. Synthesist Summoner is good at one thing - making the fighter non-casters go green with envy at your sick Power Ranger cosplay. At basically everything else SS is worse than the normal Summoner, who can just spam Summon Monster till the cows come home while his animal companion animal companions. But Synthesist Summoner is the one considered OP.
Well, he doesn't summon summon while the Eidolon is out, but underneath the half-caster disguise is a conjuration/buff-focused full caster, so yeah, synthesist is a big downgrade.
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Post by Insomniac »

Summoners get level appropriate Summons, Eidolons that can show up most non magical and low magical martials in combat and spells earlier than others. Second level Haste, third level Black Tentacles, Pit spells, etc.
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Post by TheFlatline »

Axebird wrote:
It's not Real Ultimate Power, but power gaming it a little I believe I hit most creatures, starting at level 1, on like a 3 or higher on an attack roll. Damage doesn't scale well unless you use your bombs, of which you've got like... 10 of them a day or something stupid like that.

I think by about level 8 or so the rest of the party catches up to you in damage output if they don't optimize. But what you lack in sheer oomph at that point you make up for by breaking the RNG with ranged touch attacks that you get to add your INT bonus to or whatever it was on anything that didn't have a naturally high dex modified AC.
Either your reading comprehension failed you for months at a time or you were straight up cheating. It's just a normal ranged touch attack (BAB+Dex+Misc), you add Int to damage. And bomb damage is never very impressive, the best it does is some decent AoE at low levels for slaughtering chump warrior 1s and whatnot, and at higher levels carries nice rider effects from discoveries. And you get Level+Int bombs per day if you don't take any other options for it (hobgoblins and kobolds can burn their favored class bonus for more, and there's a shitty feat that gives you two extra bombs per day).
My memory is probably at fault here. Could you use point blank shot with flasks? I think I stacked that, used point buy on elf to have a 20 INT and 18 (maybe 20 DEX and 18 INT? I can't remember) DEX, stat dumped pretty much everything else. So 1 + 4 (or 5) +1 (point blank shot) to have a total of +6/+7 to hit. Our DM was pretty crappy so for a while we were having 10-11 DC ranged touch attacks. So while not 3, maybe a 4 or 5? I'm still hitting like 75% of the time. Even Dude wearing Full Plate has a ranged touch attack AC of 11 max I think it was unless there's a size difference. So an AC 20 dude in full plate might be a significant challenge for the party, I'm still hitting on a 4 or better with a 20 starting dex. Once you pick up Cat's Grace as an extract you get an extra +2 to hit for a few minutes.

As I think I mentioned, and if I didn't I apologize I should have, our DM never did learn to throw high-DEX mobs at us so my hit rate was pretty much over 50% most of the time.

And while damage from a single flask sucked, I pretty much could always be relied on to hit. So while the fighter may hit 30% of the time and throw 2D6+6 damage every three rounds on average, I'm throwing 1D4+5 pretty much *every* round. And I could step that up with bombs or change to acid or contact poison or whatever. And at low levels that DPT is pretty significant.

Edit: I think I remember picking up a cracked ioun stone or something that gave me a +1 to attack as well fairly early on. Maybe 2nd level. I know there was at least one or two times where we calculated that I had to roll a 3 or higher to hit, and a +8 to hit at level 2 is doable I think on top of a ranged touch attack AC of 11.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

FrankTrollman wrote:
You'll have to find out what subsystems your DM uses, and how they think all kinds of shit works, and what spells they will allow, and so on and so forth. It's like signing up for a game and being told that the table has house rules about ancestry and social class that influence character creation. So no making a character at home and bringing it in - your DM is probably rolling fucking mouse skulls to assign traits or whatever the fuck.
Story time: before I left my last Pathfinder game I had to re-write my character 3 times because of all the house rules they were using.

When I asked if I had them all last time, I was told by the GM "We don't have any house rules, all of these are in the books". I'm not positive that I had it right even after the third time...
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Post by Dogbert »

Aaaaaaaaaaaand that's why stopped PuGing tables years ago.
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