Pathfinder Is Still Bad

[spongeknight]

Basically I am saying that the current pathfinder world doesn't make sense when wizards can cast teleportation circle, but he says that it costs a lot and a wizard would "run out of money".

Uh, is the cost in Pathfinder still 1,000 gp of amber dust? One casting of Wish gets you 25,000 gp of amber dust, infinitely repeatable as long as you kill things worth at least 5,000 xp in between castings. So... that's an answer.

Or you could do something like Genesis an entire plane of amber dust, making a 10,000 square mile demiplane that contains only amber dust, and share the info with all the friendly wizards you want so they can all Plane Shift there to grab materials whenever they want. Like, totally easy nearly infinite castings of Teleportation Circle after that. This stuff isn't hard.

[Insomniac]

I think the problem with full casters is they start doing things that generate infinite money and power on tap for a substantial amount of the game (last 5 levels or so) that obviates the need for adventuring.

Like, I understand why an 11th party of a Bard, Ranger, Barbarian, and a Paladin adventures. I am just kind of struggling to think of why 11th level Wizards and Clerics and Druids and the like would go "adventuring." At that point they are likely strong enough to be in charge of their own nation states.

I mean, an 11th level Fighter is gonna get out there and stab things in the face so he can get that extra +Whatever to his gear and hit 12th level for another feat and some fiddly bonus stuff. The Rogue is out there to rogue it up and thieve even bigger loot piles. Yet why would a high level Cleric or Wizard, high level being 6th level spells onwards, go in a "party" with the Fighter and the Rogue to help them be better at stabbing things when he or she could be like, a master of a Wizard college that dominates his own nation state, the sovereign religious leader of a major swatch of sacred groves or a Pope?

[RadiantPhoenix]

why would a high level Cleric or Wizard, high level being 6th level spells onwards, go in a "party" with the Fighter and the Rogue to help them be better at stabbing things when he or she could be like, a master of a Wizard college that dominates his own nation state, the sovereign religious leader of a major swatch of sacred groves or a Pope?

Because:

Edit:

That's why the model of PC taking over the kingdom by being the biggest and baddest doesn't work.

Um... no. The entire purpose of the government is to kick ass on threats. That's it. All of the politicizing and alliance building is just a complex dance of getting other people to help you kick ass on threats. Any faith in traditions or resistance to change is essentially fear that if things are different then there might not be anyone to kick ass on threats. And so on.

If there is a threat and some dude walks up and beats it down without this being the will of the ruler of the land - that dude is the government. Sure, if the baron entices mercenaries to go kill the manticore in exchange for silver coins and wenches - the baron is still in charge. The manticore was defeated because of the baron's ability to mobilize silver nd wenches. And that's what the government is for.

But if some paladin finds out that there's a manticore rampaging around and kills it on his own - the monster was defeated by the paladin - not by whatever the hell the baron was doing (or not). As such, the peaants are going to start paying their taxes to the paladin in an attempt to get him to stay (since he is more of an asskicker, and therefore a better government than the previous administration). Maybe the baron will then come after the paladin to try to get his position back, maybe the duke will come down to attempt to get arrangements of fealty with the paladin - maybe the duke will throw his lot in with the old administration. Whatever. But for right now, the Paladin is by definition a successful revolutionary whether he likes it or not.

Under Feudalism, if you kill the local dragon and are not working for the government, you are the government. No exceptions.

That's why kings are so completely willing to give large sacks of cash money and/or marriage to family members to heroes. If they didn't, they'd lose the country by default and have to try and take it back by force.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

Why do level 11-15+ spellcasters adventure at all when that shit is super-dangerous and they already have bomb-ass tricks like succubi harems and interdimensional castles? It's because D&D posits a ridiculously fast rate of advancement for adventurers, even for people already on the high end of the power scale.

Source material has non-adventuring spellcasters gaining a trickle of power over decades or even centuries; D&D can have you go from level 1 to 20 in 2-3 years if you adventure full-time. There are of course a lot of reasons why you as a full-caster would want to settle down and content yourself with gaining a level every 20 years once you got planar binding and teleport, but if you want to be an ass-kicker now you hit the adventuring trail.

[Insomniac]

Also, I'm probably coming at it from a really gamey standpoint where a Cleric would go, "Holy fuckballs! I'm Level 13 in good prestige classes! Time to become the Mayor of my setting's New York City and then have my eyes on the presidency."

The Cleric would be more likely to go, "Wow, I'm gaining power out the ying yang and who knows when this craziness is ever going to stop? All aboard the POWER TRAIN!"

[MisterDee]

I've finally been volunteered into running a high-level one-shot adventure (level 15).

The setup: this is the Magic Castle of Baron von Evildude, the mastermind behind everything bad that has ever happened to you. It's now time to murderhobo his ass off. Go.

And... that's where I run into the Wall of What-the-fuck-I-never-ran-anything-past-level-11-and-that-was-in-2nd-ed. So... help?

Objectively, even if my players figured out infinite wish factories and assorted shenanigans, they wouldn't use them, so I don't have to worry about that. By the same token, it's a one-shot, so downtime nightmares and Logistics and Dragons gaming do not apply either. Same with scryport and stuff - I can expect a certain amount of "let's not ruin the adventure" cooperation.

I still don't want this to be 4e, though. So how do I make the castle interesting? (Also, it doesn't need to be a castle, although I sort of like the imagery.)

Also, I figure I have to adjust WBL for the characters, since conservation of ressources is irrelevant in a one-shot. I think that going with 80% wealth, 3/4 of which spent on permanent stuff ought to be more reasonable. Opinions?

[erik]

Baron von Evildude liked the Clone spell [or his own version which allows multiples]. Gotta kill em all. Each clone has taken up in part of the castle with their own experiments and servitors. Don't want to be too noisy or the players will have to deal with multiple barons at once.

[maglag]

Why do level 11-15+ spellcasters adventure at all when that shit is super-dangerous and they already have bomb-ass tricks like succubi harems and interdimensional castles? It's because D&D posits a ridiculously fast rate of advancement for adventurers, even for people already on the high end of the power scale.

Source material has non-adventuring spellcasters gaining a trickle of power over decades or even centuries; D&D can have you go from level 1 to 20 in 2-3 years if you adventure full-time. There are of course a lot of reasons why you as a full-caster would want to settle down and content yourself with gaining a level every 20 years once you got planar binding and teleport, but if you want to be an ass-kicker now you hit the adventuring trail.

I would say other important factors are:

Adrenaline- Challenging the unknwown and facing danger head on would surely be an addicting rush for several people. For example, in Rome there were cases of gladiators who had earned their freedom only to come back to the arena for more.

Showing off-People like attention. They also like having an audience. Kinda hard to get that inside your private plane. Sure you can bind outsiders to your will, but that's basically like ordering hookers, it's just not the same thing as actual fangirls. This is also why wizards build giant towers despite them granting no special bonus to their magic. Wizards build giant towers because they can and they're hard to not notice.

Bigger Purpose-Maybe you want to kill all the orcs. Maybe there's still somebody out there you believe owes you something. Maybe you want to spread a religion/mentality. Either way ou're not gonna stop until you fulfill that purpose.

[Shady314]

Baron von Evildude liked the Clone spell [or his own version which allows multiples]. Gotta kill em all. Each clone has taken up in part of the castle with their own experiments and servitors. Don't want to be too noisy or the players will have to deal with multiple barons at once.

That's awesome. I'd also add something Highlander-esque so killing one buffs the final baron. Maybe they're all trying to kill each other which is why each one is dug in and ready for a fight. Then make it possible for some to be incapacitated, captured or talked down.

[Orca]

Basically I am saying that the current pathfinder world doesn't make sense when wizards can cast teleportation circle, but he says that it costs a lot and a wizard would "run out of money".

Uh, is the cost in Pathfinder still 1,000 gp of amber dust? One casting of Wish gets you 25,000 gp of amber dust, infinitely repeatable as long as you kill things worth at least 5,000 xp in between castings. So... that's an answer.

Or you could do something like Genesis an entire plane of amber dust, making a 10,000 square mile demiplane that contains only amber dust, and share the info with all the friendly wizards you want so they can all Plane Shift there to grab materials whenever they want. Like, totally easy nearly infinite castings of Teleportation Circle after that. This stuff isn't hard.

You've run headlong into some of the changes PF made. Wish now costs 25K gp (not XP) and can't make stuff except as allowed by duplicating another spell (with up to a 10K material component, BTW.)

Genesis doesn't exist. The Create Demiplane line can make living stuff and earth, stone, wood or water, but it doesn't suggest you can create a vast vat of amber dust. Maybe you could create a swamp and mine it but that sounds too much like hard work.

That said a teleportation circle should be able to make you some serious dosh by replacing shipping as ships cost a lot more than 1K and are a lot slower. You should be able to create a large network of circles with the profits even if as a 17th+ level caster you somehow don't have more than enough cash.

[Slade]

Forget the decanter. Cleric Orison. Cast at-will. Create Water. 2 gallons (per level) every standard action (6 seconds).

They nerfed create water in pathfinder, if no one drinks it, it evaporates.

"This water disappears after 1 day if not consumed"

[Shady314]

Forget the decanter. Cleric Orison. Cast at-will. Create Water. 2 gallons (per level) every standard action (6 seconds).

They nerfed create water in pathfinder, if no one drinks it, it evaporates.
"This water disappears after 1 day if not consumed"

Pathfinder stealth nerf strikes again. Goodbye easy moats and man made lakes. Still 24 hours is a lot of time to use that water. I'm imagining a team of adepts (with gifted adept trait) keeping the water in an aqueduct flowing.

[Ferret]

has pathfinder done a manual of the planes analog, is there still a Glittering Heavens?

[Antariuk]

has pathfinder done a manual of the planes analog, is there still a Glittering Heavens?

The only planar sourcebook for PF I'm aware of is "The Great Beyond—A Guide to the Multiverse". I think it's still 3.5 rules, but I don't remember any details. I know they still have the City of Brass and some other classics like that.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Like everything else Pathfinder has done, the outer planes are very similar in a lot of ways but makes random changes for no obvious reason. Personally I'm in favor of dropping the planes and instead have the different types of outsiders as creatures from different parts of the universe.

[TOZ]

Unchained Rogue gains the Skills Unlocked system, which grants extra uses for skills at 5, 10, 15, and 20 ranks.

[Seerow]

Unchained Rogue gains the Skills Unlocked system, which grants extra uses for skills at 5, 10, 15, and 20 ranks.

Honestly if these end up being any good, I'll be happy with the existence of the book for that alone.

Chances of them being good... meh.

[Ice9]

Well, by normal Paizo procedure, they would mostly be underwhelming, a few actually useless, a few decent ones, and a couple really good ones.

And the good ones will be very specific, so that everybody who uses ranged attacks now wants to have 10 ranks in Profession (surveyer) for example.


... wait a minute. I just realized what this reminds me of.
Rifts!
The PF trait system (and to an extent, other selectable stuff) is Ballet all over again!

[TarkisFlux]

Unchained Rogue gains the Skills Unlocked system, which grants extra uses for skills at 5, 10, 15, and 20 ranks.

Hrm... why does that sound familiar...

[Insomniac]

Because that is basically somewhere between Tome Skill Feats and 3.5's Skill Trick system.

[Archmage Joda]

So, I'll be playing some pathfinder on saturday, and I kinda just want to take a big ol' weapon in hand and smash faces. I realize that full casters are still the best and everything, but I'm thinking either Barbarian or Bloodrager. Which one would I likely be better off with between those two specifically, since I'm not using the Primalist archetype for bloodrager to trade bloodline powers for rage powers?

[souran]

So people are getting their physical copies of "Pathfinder Unchained" and instead of being the BIG BOOK OF D20 FIXES people thought that they were getting it is instead quite literally just a pathfinder version of unearthed arcana. Enworld has a detailed preview.

Basically, I would venture to guess that except for the stamina system and the class fixes that exactly NONE of the other changes are ever allowed in pathfinder society play. Which basically means that this will be a big book of shit nobody cares about because you can't ever find a game that uses these house rules adjustments to the 3.5 houserules that are pathfinder.

The only reason I think that the Stamina system will be allowed is because it is entirely contained within feats and PFS play really only limits people to not taking item creation feats.

Further, even the EN World reviewer seemed underwhelmed by what the stamina could be used to do. You have to have an assload of feats to be able to do more than 1 or two things with stamina anyway, and then what you can do STILL does not appear to be as good as buffing with longer duration buffs and running through the dungeon.

The fact that they offer 4 different ways of fixing the skill system and most of them are completely incompatible with the others means they don't have a fucking clue why the system sucks.

The one thing I did find interesting was this

The next part is the removing Iterative Attacks system. It works like this: When you make a full attack, roll your highest bonus and then compare it to the target's AC. If you fail by less than 6, you do miss damage. You do damage on a hit, and land an additional hit for each 5 points of success. Criticals apply to one hit, and there are special rules for TWF, Natural Attacks, Haste, Rerolls, and True Strike that I won't explain here.

I actually think that this is a little bit interesting. A system like this would seem to help do two things. First it would make power attack and its ilk obsolete by virtue of making attack bonus more relevant.

Secondly it would seem to help with the issue of armor in D&D not feeling like it was worthwhile at high level. It might be purely psychological, but feeling like your armor protected you from a portion of the damage would help people feel like armor was not pointless.

However, I don't see how this sort of change could be implemented without a significant rebalance of every monster and PC in terms of hit points armor class and attack bonus. It seems like if you just drop this in an existing game your PCs will take more damage and die and you will be back to the old way after a session or two. Its hard to talk in detail without more specifics but this, like converting armor to damage reduction, seems like it wouldn't work without a huge amount of revising of material in order to incorporate it for what is a very slim gain.

[Ferret]

yeah that seems like it would be super deadly. Plus everyone starts dumpster diving for both Attack Bonus and At-Will Touch attacks so they can do X6 damage on an attack.

I don't dislike it as a mechanic, though - it resonates similarly to the degrees of success from Shadowrun.

[maglag]

Any news about the monster creation rules they had promised?

[Seerow]

I toyed around with something similar to bonus attacks for higher success, except more limited (adding +1[W] per +5, rather than a whole extra attack). Even with a more limited bonus it wound up being a pain in the ass to make work in a way that felt right.