Pathfinder homebrew and novel resource schedules.

[DSMatticus]

So, that list of seventeen (well, there's two lists, one has seventeen and the other eleven) classes Frank brainstormed way back keeps coming up, and I kind of want to churn them out (with some minor tweaks) for fun. My group plays a weird bastard child of 3.5, PF, Tome, and houserules, so I'm probably just going to pretend I'm making Pathfinder homebrew and if you want to use it for your game it's not like that'll be hard.

I'm not going to put the actual classes here, I'll throw those in IMOI as I work on them. This is just a soliciting ideas thread where I repeat a bunch of things Frank said with minor tweaks, fill in some basics, and poke TGD with a stick until it responds. Also, one big thing: every class is going to have their abilities set up like they were a spellcaster. If you're a hero your abilities are called deeds, and deeds are organized into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc level and as you level up you pick off better lists exactly like you were a wizard.

There are seven martial classes (assassin, berserker, champion, marshal, monk, paladin, rogue) and ten caster classes (alchemist, cleric, elementalist, enchanter, necromancer, psion, shaman, sorcerer, warlock, wizard). The goal is to give every class six levels of abilities unlocking at 1,4,7,10,13,16. The monk, the druid, the warlock, and the elementalist are exceptions to this pattern, because these classes all learn multi-level bundles of abilities. The monk, the druid, and the warlock unlock new bundles at 1,7,13, while the elementalist's bundles span the entire level range.

Martials

The Champion
[*]Their abilities are called deeds.
[*]Does not know the entire deed list. Does not need to prepare deeds.
[*]Deeds can be activated at will without limitation.
[*]d10 HD; good BAB; fortitude, will; 4+int
[*]Light, medium, and heavy armor; shields; simple and martial weapons.

The Assassin
[*]Their abilities are called marks.
[*]Does not know the entire mark list. Does not need to prepare marks.
[*]Marks cost precision, and the assassin builds precision against a specific target by spending actions studying them.
[*]d8 HD; average BAB; reflex; 6+int
[*]Light armor; simple and assassin weapons.

The Berserker
[*]Their abilities are called furies.
[*]Does not know the entire fury list. Does not need to prepare furies.
[*]Furies cost rage, and the berserker builds rage by taking and dealing damage.
[*]d12 HD; good BAB; fortitude; 4+int
[*]Light and medium armor; shields; simple and martial weapons.

The Marshal
[*]Their abilities are called strategies, orders, and warnings. They also know a small number of deeds from the champion list.
[*]Does not know the entire list of any. Does not need to prepare for any.
[*]Strategies are always-on passive benefits that can be changed with a swift action. Each turn, the marshal randomly draws a certain number of orders and warnings based on their level and can activate any of them as an immediate action before their next turn (when they are lost and redrawn). Deeds are at will abilities, as per the champion.
[*]d8 HD; average BAB; fortitude, will; 4+int
[*]Light and medium armor; shields; simple and martial weapons.

The Monk
[*]Their abilities are called styles.
[*]Does not know the entire style list. Does not need to prepare styles.
[*]Styles offer the monk a stance (a passive benefit) and a number of techniques (abilities the monk can use at will in that style). Changing styles is a swift action.
[*]d8 HD; good BAB; fortitude, reflex, will; 6+int
[*]Simple and monk weapons.

The Paladin
[*]Their abilities are called inspirations.
[*]Knows the entire inspiration list. Needs to prepare inspirations. Preparation requires brief meditation (five minutes).
[*]The paladin draws a certain number of prepared inspirations based on their level each turn, and can use as many of them as they have actions for. They discard any unused inspirations and redraw at the start of their next turn.
[*]d8 HD; good BAB; fortitude, will; 4+int
[*]Light, medium, and heavy armor; shields; simple and martial weapons.

The Rogue
[*]Their abilities are called tricks.
[*]Does not know the entire trick list. Does not need to prepare tricks.
[*]Every trick has a catch, which is a condition that must be met for the rogue to use that trick.
[*]d8 HD; average BAB; reflex; 8+int
[*]Light armor; shields; simple and rogue weapons.

Casters

The Sorcerer
[*]Their abilities are called gifts.
[*]Does not know the entire gift list. Does not need to prepare gifts.
[*]Gifts can be activated at will without limitation.
[*]d6 HD; poor BAB; will; 4+int
[*]Simple weapons.

The Beguiler
[*]Their abilities are called deceptions and mysteries.
[*]Does not know the entire list for either. Needs to prepare deceptions, but does not need to prepare mysteries. Preparation requires brief study (five minutes).
[*]Each prepared deception can be activated once, while mysteries can be activated at will.
[*]d6 HD; poor BAB; reflex, will; 6+int
[*]Light armor; simple weapons.

The Cleric
[*]Their abilities are called prayers.
[*]Knows the entire prayer list. Does not need to prepare prayers. Each cleric selects some number of domains which adds to their list of prayers.
[*]Each prayer has a certain amount of time that must pass once it is activated before it can be activated again.
[*]d8 HD; average BAB; fortitude, will; 4+int
[*]Light and medium armor; shields; simple weapons.

The Elementalist
[*]Their abilities are called elements.
[*]Does not know the entire element list. Does not need to prepare elements.
[*]Each turn, the elementalist rolls a die (size based on level) for each element they know. The higher the roll, the more powerful abilities of that element that are available.
[*]d8 HD; poor BAB; will; 4+int
[*]Light armor; simple weapons.

The Enchanter
[*]Their abilities are called infusions and discharges.
[*]Does not know the entire list of either. Needs to prepare both. Preparation requires doing fancy calligraphy (one hour).
[*]An enchanter enchants objects by preparing an infusion and a discharge into each. The infusion is a passive effect that lasts until the discharge is used. The discharge is an activated spell effect.
[*]d8 HD; average BAB; fortitude, will; 6+int
[*]Light and medium armor; shields; simple and martial weapons.

The Necromancer
[*]Their abilities are called rites and curses.
[*]Knows the entire list for both. Needs to prepare both. Preparing rites requires rituals (one hour, possibly more). Preparing curses requires brief study (five minutes).
[*]The necromancer has a limited amount of essence that they can spend animating or improving undead minions (rites) or gaining access to abilities they can use at will (curses).
[*]d6 HD; poor BAB; will; 4+int
[*]Simple weapons.

The Psion
[*]Their abilities are called powers.
[*]Does not know the entire power list. Does not need to prepare powers.
[*]The psion has a reserve of points they can spend activating their powers. They can also spend these points to apply a limited number of levels worth of metamagic feats to their powers as they activate them, even if that would push their final level above what the psion could ordinarily cast. Points recover with five minutes of rest.
[*]d6 HD; poor BAB; will; 4+int
[*]Simple weapons.

The Shaman
[*]Their abilities are called spirits.
[*]Does not know the entire spirit list. Does not need to prepare spirits.
[*]Each turn, a random spirit answers the shaman. They may use any of that spirit's abilities freely. At higher levels, they can force a reroll of the spirit that answers them or even manifest multiple spirits.
[*]d8 HD; average BAB; fortitude, will; 4+int
[*]Light and medium armor; shields; simple and druid weapons.

The Warlock
[*]Their abilities are called pacts.
[*]Does not know the entire pact list. Does not need to prepare pacts.
[*]Each of the warlock's pacts has multiple abilities. Some are usable at will, while using others risks a stacking debuff culminating in death.
[*]d6 HD; average BAB; reflex, will; 6+int
[*]Light armor; simple weapons.

The Wizard
[*]Their abilities are called spells.
[*]Does not know the entire spell list. Needs to prepare spells. Preparation requires brief study (5 minutes).
[*]Each of the wizard's prepared spells can be used at will.
[*]d6 HD; poor BAB; will; 4+int
[*]Simple weapons.

I know it's boring to look at shit like HD/BAB/saves/skill points/proficiencies, but is there anything in there that anyone finds outright stupid?

And far more importantly, any comments on the proposed resource mechanics? Any suggestions for what sort of class features a particular class should be getting to round out its pseudo-spellcasting?

[OgreBattle]

For Assassin, 'mark' is a good alternative name for 'precision' and recalls phrases like "marked for death". Your format could be switched around a bit. "What does this class do" should go before "this class prepares his abilities from a list/doesn't", and all of that can be in one sentence instead of two bullet points.

Something like...

Warlock Pacts (Drain)
Each of the warlock's pacts has multiple abilities. Some are usable at will, while using others risks a stacking debuff culminating in death. Does not know the entire pact list and does not need to prepare pacts.
[*]d6 HD; average BAB; reflex, will; 6+int
[*]Light armor; simple weapons.

...gives the same information with less space taken.

As for new resource mechanics... how about the 'reserve spell' user? You have fireball memorized, keeping it memorized lets you use burning hands at-will, but once you launch the fireball it has to be re-memorized, similar to your enchanter except no passive buffs are given. Though that could simply be part of the wizard's system.

There's also the TOME Totemist that prepares X amount of 'totemic powers' that give passive buffs, with those powers requiring a short cooldown before use. Somewhat similar to enchanter but the totemist doesn't lose its passive buffs when a certain totem is on cooldown.

[ishy]

I know it's boring to look at shit like HD/BAB/saves/skill points/proficiencies, but is there anything in there that anyone finds outright stupid?

Yeah. Hero is probably the stupidest class name I've ever seen.
No clue what a hero's theme is supposed to be or what a hero is supposed to do. Also whether you're a hero or not is a campaign choice, if everyone decides to play good then everyone is a hero, if everyone decides to play evil, then nobody can be a hero.
And you get stuck with a 'hero code', where if you don't chose the hero RP option, everyone is going to grief you.
Even fighter would be a better name.

What design limits are you working with pathfinder wise (are hit dice linked to bab? Are martials supposed to suck balls?)

Assassin: arts and building precision both sound kinda stupid imho.
I'm also not convinced about having to spend actions before you can do your stuff (too big a chance that your target is going to be dead / you can't attack your target etc for that to work)
And it is also kind of boring.

Berserker: Are they supposed to cut themselves before combat?

Marshal: Can you change out your list? Seems kind of bad otherwise. You have average bab, though you're stuck full-attacking every round. Pray to the RNG gods you can do something useful with your immediate action and be bored out of your mind when you get unlucky.

Monk: Monk abilities are called styles, styles are called stances.
Pick one or the other imho.

Rogue: Since they need to meet conditions before they can do stuff, either let them know their entire list or give them multiple options per condition (say you can pick 72 tricks known if you flank, 72 tricks know if you catch the target unaware etc.)

Cleric: requiring a certain amount of time, can be very annoying. In my experience most people, don't track the in-game time that well.

Druid: oh, even worse than the marshall. Pray to the RNG gods you can do anything or run away I guess.

The elementalist: Seems like a lot of die rolling. While probably being frustrating at low levels when you don't know many elements yet. Also calling it elements seems like a bad idea considering elements already have a definition in PF.

I know it's boring to look at shit like HD/BAB/saves/skill points/proficiencies, but is there anything in there that anyone finds outright stupid?

Can't really comment too much without knowing the class features / what the class is supposed to be doing.

[DSMatticus]

For Assassin, 'mark' is a good alternative name for 'precision' and recalls phrases like "marked for death".

Mark doesn't sound as good when you're talking about building up a numerical quantity. It's not a binary condition, after all. You have X precision and abilities cost Y precision.

Your format could be switched around a bit. "What does this class do" should go before "this class prepares his abilities from a list/doesn't", and all of that can be in one sentence instead of two bullet points.

The format is:

The Name
[*]What do you call the items on your selection list?
[*]Do you know all the items on that list?
[*]Do you have a preparation mechanic or are all known items available?
[*]How do you use these the items on that list?
[*]Basic class numbers.
[*]Proficienciers.

I'll combine know/prepare into one line, but otherwise I like it written that way. All of the questions I consider important have answers in the exact same place each time. If I collapse everything into mini-descriptions, you'll note that classes like the monk, paladin, or necromancer in particular would look very different. The actual class writeups will look totally different, but for now separating the answers to those questions out makes it a lot easier to keep track of everything in my head and on paper.

What design limits are you working with pathfinder wise (are hit dice linked to bab? Are martials supposed to suck balls?)

[and stuff]

No, hit dice are not linked to anything. No, martials are not supposed to suck balls. It'll probably come in under expanded Tome balance, but then again expanded Tome balance is pretty fucking crazy sometimes.

@Hero: It's your generic fantasy armor guy, whether they are actually a hero or a villain or an ordinary dude. They swing their sword and eventually do improbable weeaboo hijinks. They should taste bland, because they are.

@Assassin: You can build precision by giving up your move (maybe even your swift, haven't thought about it too much) and still take a standard action that turn using the precision you've built up. But yes, it is a risk, exactly like the Tome Assassin, except less because you have intermediate options.

@Berserker: The original suggestion by Frank was that fatigue set in a certain amount of time after you started gaining rage, encouraging you not to cut yourself or murder sacks of rabbits too much. There are alternatives, like limiting the building of rage to 'stressful' situations where taking 10 on skill checks would be inappropriate or whatever. I'm open to ideas.

@Marshal: The number of draws that the marshal gets increases as they level up, and they are not supposed to be hyper specific abilities like fire resistance 5 if the sun is up and it's Tuesday. But yes, it's a random resource mechanic. You don't control it, you just get a pile of stuff and choose one. It is kind of weird that they're generic beatsticks outside of their interrupts. I don't think any other of the seventeen classes I've proposed defaults to full attack. Hm.

@Monk: Um, what. Styles aren't called stances. A style is a stance and several techniques. Remember the Tome of Battle? Imagine if you took a single stance and a handful of strikes/boosts/counters and packaged them together. Voila, the monk's styles.

@Rogue: Hm. It does seem kind of annoying to write enough situational abilities that the rogue nearly always has something available and multiple rogues are meaningfully different from one another.

@Cleric: The times aren't going to be particularly variable. They'll either be measured in X rounds (i.e. maybe in the same combat), 5 minutes (take a breather), 1 hour (take a big breather), or some number of days (downtime). My biggest worry for the cleric is declaring it knows everything and doesn't prepare. That's a dazzling array of options, and I am quickly having second thoughts.

@Druid: What? Okay, I think you just hate random resource schedules. Each spirit has a number of abilities associated with it, and you get one entire spirit randomly, not one ability. At higher levels I'd probably have to do something to help them fish for higher level spirits instead of getting their low level ones (multispirits? rerolls?).

@Elementalist: At low levels, you're more likely to roll high for any given element because the die is small. At high levels, you've got more elements and more chances to roll high. But basically your turn starts and you roll XdY and then pick an ability. Not particularly problematic unless you don't have a technique for rolling multiple dice when order matters.

[TarkisFlux]

Elementalist power variation per round goes up substantially if the die size grows as they level up (maybe you meant that it depends on level in a different way though?). That might be countered by having additional elements as you level up or weighting the dice, as the odds of rolling one well enough might be acceptable, but it would be a fine line to walk to ensure that they had level appropriate powers available even most rounds. They probably need a fall back option, and "some prepared elements, some random elements" doesn't seem to be a used mechanic yet.

[Edit] that's what I get for not previewing the thread again before posting...

[erik]

Since there's not a lot to go on, I'll start on names.

On names:
Rebrand Hero as Champion and it is at least something less generic sounding, if only slightly. Could replace it entirely with a Hunter/Warden (ways or paths as abilties) because that niche is missing.

I do agree that Marks sound better than Arts for Assassin.

Enchanter misled me because I was expecting Beguiler instead of "another alchemist". I'd replace this class with either a Beguiler or Illusionist and rename powers to Deceptions.

Druid may sound better named as Shaman since you are dealing with spirits.

I would support any means of getting rid of Cleric entirely. Paladins cover them fairly well already. Just need to find a new class to take over the cool-down resource method. I'd propose a Shapechanger/Transmuter with powers named as "Forms"

Replacing Wizard with something that implies a restriction on what sort of spells they use would be a plus. Conjurer maybe.

Necromancer "Investments" sound kinda dumb. I'd opt for something like "Rites" especially since you require rituals to prepare them.


On Mechanics:
Elementalist activation method sounds like balls. Like your power level is random each round? Pass.
If you want varying power levels you could have power points that you accumulate each round by rolling, and maybe an option to draw more points in exchange for a move or standard?

Druid Activation probably shouldn't be changing on a round by round basis as that's a lot of busy work that doesn't seem to fit thematically.
Alternatively could have a permanent spirit (and maybe more that you can accumulate as you level up) and then you can also access random spirit when rolling initiative. Maybe have a mechanic for rerolling to try for a different spirit in combat as a move action or something.

[MisterDee]

The one thing that bugs me is the assassin's "do-nothing-for-a-while" mechanic.

You probably should have some way of building up some ressources quickly and/or automatically (either "as a free action you can do once a turn, earn one point against the dude of your choice" or flat out "whenever you attack a dude, get one point against this dude" or even both.). A big boost when spending a full round action studying is fine too, it just can't be the only method of earning points.

[Echoes]

For the druid, it sounds like the best way to go would be to have the power level of the spirits you get randomly go up as you level, while your lower-level spirits become at-will(-ish) to represent your increasing mastery over them. "Yeah, it used to be that air elementals were too capricious for me to reliably snag one, but now that I can wrangle wendigos (or whatthefuckevers), basic elementals are a cinch!"

So you can have your basic (scaling) stuff on the lower-tier spirits while your higher tiers are more powerful, but also less controllable. How many tiers you want is entirely down to how much granularity you want in the power scaling. If you just want "Regular" and "Awesome", you can do that. You start out doing WoF for Regular spirits, and then at some level you get Awesome spirits. You now get Awesome spirits via WoF, while you can select some number of regular spirits to have access to at will. Maybe include the ability rotate between your at-will spirits with a bit of downtime (like 5 minutes).

Your rogue sounds like the rough outline idea I had for rogues as well. Your basic abilities all do some damage and impose a first-tier condition (like shaken, sickened, etc). These are your "setup" moves. Then you have "exploit" moves that let you capitalize on enemies who are already under some kind of negative condition (whether you imposed it or someone else), which are bigger, harder hitting, and scale the conditions up to worse ones. Finally, I gave them a handful of "finishers" to choose from which required higher-tier conditions to trigger but did nasty SoD-type stuff like petrification, outright death effect, etc. One rogue by himself would take a bit of time to work up to really painful stuff, but a bunch gang-banging you gets really bad, really fast. The class was all about combos and synergy with itself and the rest of the party.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The one thing that bugs me is the assassin's "do-nothing-for-a-while" mechanic.

You probably should have some way of building up some ressources quickly and/or automatically (either "as a free action you can do once a turn, earn one point against the dude of your choice" or flat out "whenever you attack a dude, get one point against this dude" or even both.). A big boost when spending a full round action studying is fine too, it just can't be the only method of earning points.

You are recreating the Iron Heroes' Archer's 'Aim Pool,' and you should stop.

[ishy]

@Monk: Um, what. Styles aren't called stances. A style is a stance and several techniques. Remember the Tome of Battle? Imagine if you took a single stance and a handful of strikes/boosts/counters and packaged them together. Voila, the monk's styles.

Several techniques that you can only use in that stance. And changing a style is a swift action (or is that supposed to be changing a stance?). Or are multiple styles going to use the same stance? Otherwise, it is less confusing to just call it stances.

@Druid: What? Okay, I think you just hate random resource schedules. Each spirit has a number of abilities associated with it, and you get one entire spirit randomly, not one ability. At higher levels I'd probably have to do something to help them fish for higher level spirits instead of getting their low level ones (multispirits? rerolls?).

If it controls everything you can do and you have no influence over it at all, I do hate randomness yes. At least have some default stuff to fall back.

@Elementalist: At low levels, you're more likely to roll high for any given element because the die is small. At high levels, you've got more elements and more chances to roll high. But basically your turn starts and you roll XdY and then pick an ability. Not particularly problematic unless you don't have a technique for rolling multiple dice when order matters.

And at low levels you're also more likely to have a low rolling streak.
I'm also afraid that having to cross reference all your elements with your die rolls to see which are available might take a lot of table time.

[DSMatticus]

@Erik:
Hero -> Champion: Done.

Arts -> Marks: I do like that. Done.

Enchanter: I am/was torn on enchanter. To enchant means both "to be magically bewitching" and "to put magic in things." The former lends itself to a beguiler-clone. The latter lends itself to a battle-mage who scribbles runes on everything he owns. But the mechanic itself sounds a lot more like the dude who puts runes on everything than the beguiler-clone. But I can also see a beguiler who keeps their magic in items they hand out to party members or even trick other people into wearing. Anyone else have any opinions on this?

Druid -> Shaman: Hm. Sure, why not. It doesn't have much of a relation to the D&D druid, so I'll give up the name.

Cleric and Paladin and Transmutation: Ehh. I'm gonna solicit additionals opinions on this one too. Anyone else think I should just smash the cleric and paladin together and make a new class that uses cooldowns? If so, any class in particular?

Wizard -> Conjuror: I know "one wizard to rule them all" is something of a problem, but I'm actually worried that if I narrow it I won't be able to cover all the types of magic. I also don't think a conjuror would lend itself well to spammables. Summon monster all day erry day?

Investments -> Rites: Yeah, investments is just a shitty placeholder. I'll switch that to rites and if I think of something better after that I'll switch it again.

Elementalist activation: You roll one die per element. The idea isn't that some rounds you suck, the idea is that the element you have the best access to this round isn't the same as the one you had last round. It definitely requires some tinkering to make the probability work out, but I'm not especially concerned. If I have to, instead of just increasing the die size I can also add flat numbers to guarantee minimum proficiency.

Druid (and this is @Echoes, too): Spirits come in lesser (1), greater (7), and primordial (13). The abilities within a spirit are also slightly levelled to fill the gap. The current idea is that when you hit greater you can force a reroll (must take the second result), and when you hit primordial you roll twice and take both.

The one thing that bugs me is the assassin's "do-nothing-for-a-while" mechanic.

You probably should have some way of building up some ressources quickly and/or automatically (either "as a free action you can do once a turn, earn one point against the dude of your choice" or flat out "whenever you attack a dude, get one point against this dude" or even both.). A big boost when spending a full round action studying is fine too, it just can't be the only method of earning points.

Again, you can spend a move action building precision and spend your standard action activating an ability that expends that precision. Building up for a big shot is either what you do to start combat or just a risk you take. I know the Tome Assassin can be a rough class to play in practice, but this is slightly more forgiving than that.

Several techniques that you can only use in that stance. And changing a style is a swift action (or is that supposed to be changing a stance?). Or are multiple styles going to use the same stance? Otherwise, it is less confusing to just call it stances.

A style is a fixed passive benefit and a bunch of activated abilities. The passive benefit is called a stance. The acivated abilities are called techniques. You can change styles as a swift action. It looks like this:

Hungry Hippo Style
Stance: You gain a bite attack.

Are You Gonna Eat That?: As an immediate action when an enemy you threaten takes damage from a source other than you, you can make a bite attack against that enemy.

Hippo Hide: As an immediate action, you gain a +6 bonus to your AC against an attack. If the attack misses, you gain total concealment until your next turn. If anyone at the table groans at this pun, you gain 1 temporary hitpoint.

I Ate Too Much: As a standard action, you may vomit on an adjacent target. They must make a fortitude save or be nauseated for one round.

If it controls everything you can do and you have no influence over it at all, I do hate randomness yes. At least have some default stuff to fall back.

This list includes a lot of WoF-style classes, and they're not going anywhere. There are also a lot of non-WoF classes. The warlock, for example, is structurally very similar to a druid but without the randomness. They both pick abilities in bundles (pacts, spirits).

[Username17]

In D&D 3rd edition, "enchantment" means mind control. This is extremely dumb, because it ends up with "Enhanced Swords" rather than "Enchanted Swords." There's historical reason for the terminology, but it's fucking confusing. Things would be better if we went back to enchanting swords. And if for clarity we had to call mind control something else, that would be an incredibly small price to pay.

Even Magic the Gathering, which I remind you is made by the same company, does not acknowledge D&D's use of the word "enchantment" as valid.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

Alright, so I've been thinking about it, and currently there is a trickster mage (beguiler) shaped hole in the class list (not counting warlock, who is less trickster magic and more creepy magic). So here's what I'm thinking:

1) The enchanter loses its battle mage direction, and instead of getting the cleric chassis it gets the standard caster chassis and imbues objects with trickster magic.

2) The alchemist turns back into an illusionist, like in Frank's original write-up, and gets a bunch of trickster magic they can use once per day. I like the idea of the vancian caster being a chemistry dude, because, well... it seems very obvious. But oh well.

3) I fold the cleric into the paladin, like Erik suggested, and the cooldown class becomes the trickster mage. I honestly don't know how I feel about illusions and what not on cooldowns. It kind of works (you can't just pull the same trick over and over), but it feels like the weakest connection of the bunch.

[Username17]

Trickster Magic has a better game mechanical reason to be on spell slots than anything else except maybe healing. If your powers make damage not happen, that has to run out, otherwise you end up in perpetual lock downs that are really really dull.

-Username17

[DSMatticus]

I should point out that the class with all the heals is currently on cooldowns. Could be worse, you can definitely use cooldowns to lock out spamming of certain abilities.

If I use the enchanter to fill the trickster mage role, then it becomes a weird D&Double entendre - a person who casts enchantment spells by enchanting them into items. That leaves trickster magic on spell slots and healbotting on cooldown.

If I replace the alchemist with the trickster mage, that puts trickster magic on spell slots and leaves healbotting on cooldown.

If I fold the cleric into the paladin and put the trickster mage on cooldowns, then healbotting gets put on random draws - i.e. take X enough times and heal everything you know how to heal.

Well, I suppose #3's out. I really like the idea of the spell slot caster being a dude who can't reuse his spells because he drank them (or tossed them, whatever), but I hate the idea of the enchanter being a meta-pun instead of a warrior-mage even more. I'll probably end up swapping the alchemist back for the illusionist/beguiler/something along those lines.

[Pedantic]

For the elementalist, how about rolling one die to determine which element is good? Whatever element you role is "ascendant" for the round and you get it's good powers. If the element changes, then the old ascendant element is either weak or unavailable this round. If it doesn't change, there's no weak element and the strong one stays the same.

[Orion]

Healing powers can't all be on the same class if this is a D&D hack. Alchemist, Hero, and Druid need to have some healing. Elementalists, Warlock, and Assassins probably also should.

[Dean]

I'm interested in the Monk stances and techniques idea. I always felt that the Tome Monk's only weakness was that it lacked choices. As a result I've always given it full Warblade maneuver progression and have been satisfied with that, more or less. The idea of techniques seems to fill that role but it sounds like a fuckton of bookkeeping to me.

If a Monk player has three Stances that he constructs Tome Monk style and each stance gives him access to a 3 different strikes apiece then that is a ton of writing to fit on a character sheet and that's by 4th level. Perhaps doing something like Warblade Maneuvers where the Monk always knows a selection of maneuvers he can use in any style.

[TiaC]

Ok, started this post hours ago and forgot all about it, os some of it is out of date.

Getting rid of 2+int skills was good, but the upper end could stand to be a bit higher too.

It might be better if the monk's styles scaled to level so that your character can maintain some thematic consistency.

Cleric does seem a little too broad. Perhaps give them only domain spells with some sort of ritual system to cast off list?

Shaman seems like it could also use scaling sprits. You'll still have a bunch of low-level abilities, but you will also have some that are more level-appropriate. You also still have a "Druid" in the description. Are these going to be Binder-like (but not sucky) collections of abilities?

If elementalist is straight XdY, you'll get a lot of swing if the y grows too fast relative to the x.

I recommend giving the assassin some form of nuisance strike that generates precision. Something low-damage, but with a minor status rider. Perhaps an ability that generates precision when an ally hits your target? Either fit with the finding the weak point theme.

As to Rogues, perhaps give them some abilities that worsen other player's attacks. E.g. they saved for partial, but you can force them have to make it again.

[DSMatticus]

I'm interested in the Monk stances and techniques idea. I always felt that the Tome Monk's only weakness was that it lacked choices. As a result I've always given it full Warblade maneuver progression and have been satisfied with that, more or less. The idea of techniques seems to fill that role but it sounds like a fuckton of bookkeeping to me.

If a Monk player has three Stances that he constructs Tome Monk style and each stance gives him access to a 3 different strikes apiece then that is a ton of writing to fit on a character sheet and that's by 4th level. Perhaps doing something like Warblade Maneuvers where the Monk always knows a selection of maneuvers he can use in any style.

Well, the Tome Monk-Warblade you describe would have something like 10 fighting styles with two or more abilities each and 13 maneuvers, for a grand total of 33+ things to remember/write down at level 20. My hypothetical monk might have 3 styles, 2 greater styles, 2 enlightened styles each with a passive benefit and 3-4 abilities per. That's 28-35 things at level 20. I don't think there's any unique problem here, just the usual "high level characters have a lot of shit going on." If it gets out of hand, I can always implement a trade-in approach where instead of always learning new bundles sometimes you just replace old ones. That would actually really help the druid in particular.

@Tiac:
Skills: Sadly, I am willing to chop off the low end, but I'm not willing to break the mold. I don't think it's too much of a problem.

Monk, Shaman, Warlock: Styles, spirits, and pacts span about 6 levels (except for the last batch, which span the final 8). They're definitely going to have internal scaing (probably new abilities that unlock at the 4,10,13 benchmarks those characters otherwise lose out on), but I consider a little bit of thematic drift occurring every 6 levels a feature, not a bug. It's how you level up from a ninja who hangs out in dark corners to a dude who reaches through space and time to stab people in the back or whatever.

Cleric: I actually added a bit about domains at some point. The current plan is to give them basic cleric utility (healbotting and the like), and then have people decide whether they want to be a beatstick cleric or a blaster cleric or whatever by picking domains that give them spells (with cooldowns). I might still heavily condense what I consider the cleric essentials into new multispell type dealios to reduce list bloat, but that's the current plan.

[RobbyPants]

The beguiler and wizard seem to have the exact same resource management scheme (doesn't know all, needs to prepare, prepares in five minutes). Was that intentional? I know they'll have different spells, making them different classes, but all of the other classes are somewhat unique in their resource mechanics.

[DSMatticus]

The beguiler can use each of their prepared abilities once. The wizard can use each of their prepared abilities at will.

Edit: Practically, this means the beguiler has more powerful spells and probably a bit more flexibility, while the wizard has more consistency. I will probably give the beguiler some cantrips (any name suggestions?) they just know and can use at will, because running out of spells and defaulting to crossbow is boring. I might also increase the beguiler's prep time to an hour, but am unsure.

[DSMatticus]

So, I'm kind of curious how many abilities of each tier people think characters should know/have available, and whether or not certain characters should replace old low level abilities with high level ones to avoid bloat. Also, the first tier will probably always have slightly more than later tiers, because if you don't front load this shit the early levels are even more super boring than normal.

Elementalist: The elementalist is something of a unique case, and I won't be entirely sure until I'm making it. Starting with 2 elements and ending with 4 seems reasonable for now.

Monk/Warlock/Shaman: These classes have three tiers of bundles. I'm thinking two bundles per tier, with the shaman alternating between learning a new bundle and replacing a weaker one to help with their random access mechanic. With a tiny boost at level 1, that's 3/2/2 and 1/2/2 respectively.

Champion/Berserker/Assassin/Rogue: These classes have six tiers of abilities, and each known ability is basically available at all times. I think the assassin/rogue should know slightly more than the champion/berserker to represent them being more versatile characters. So 2, 3, or 4 per tier?

Paladin: I'm thinking paladins should start the game preparing 4 inspirations and end it preparing 10, and they get to draw half of however many that is each round. Once they have access to multiple tiers, only half of those inspirations can be drawn from their highest level.

Marshal: The marshal is really similar to the paladin, just with two stacks of draws plus strategies to swap between. Like the shaman, they pretty clearly need to replace low level stuff with higher level stuff to avoid bogging their random access down with crap. I'm really not sure what sorts of numbers make me happy with this guy.

Sorcerer/Wizard/Necromancer: The sorcerer should probably just look like the champion, with 2-4 per tier. The wizard just needs to have noticeably less prepared abilities than the sorcerer has known; the wizard'ss versatility between combats is paid for by having less options in a specific combat. The necromancer has a fairly narrow class list, so it's not too much a problem if someone blows all their essence having more at wills than a sorcerer or whatever.

Beguiler/Enchanter/Psion: "Per tier" doesn't make sense for these guys, because they shouldn't actually go from 1 spell per fight to 1 per spell per round. They need more fixed numbers. Or in the psion's case, their pool needs to scale with costs.

Cleric: The question doesn't even make sense for these guys, so forget that.

So... yeah... tl;dr how many styles should monks get? How many deeds should champions get? How many gifts should sorcerers get?

[Orca]

The champion's for people who want/need a simple character, right? So they should probably upgrade some of their deeds too, reducing their number of options so as to reduce the chance of option paralysis. Beserkers may be similar. If that's not an issue for the particular people you game with never mind.

Rogues on the other hand should have a large number of very specific tricks IMO. More than assassins probably.

[RobbyPants]

The beguiler can use each of their prepared abilities once. The wizard can use each of their prepared abilities at will.

Edit: Practically, this means the beguiler has more powerful spells and probably a bit more flexibility, while the wizard has more consistency. I will probably give the beguiler some cantrips (any name suggestions?) they just know and can use at will, because running out of spells and defaulting to crossbow is boring. I might also increase the beguiler's prep time to an hour, but am unsure.

Whoops! Missed that bullet point. Never mind, then.

I agree with the cantrips thing. That's something I've done in my house games for a while, to give low level casters something casterish to do when not using their good spells.