Insomniac wrote:So then it really is like Magic, where MTG deliberates prints crappy cards and junk rares so you "feel good" when you understand "card evaluation." So Paizo prints bullshit feats, races, talents, spells and items, hell, maybe even bullshit CLASSES on purpose and you're supposed to feel good when you understand "evaluation." But even still, Magic has undergone a colossal amount of power creep and they want people to find out the decks they found in testing and they deliberately push card power and are happy to do it.
No, literally the opposite is what he is saying. He is saying that everything that ever gets made is supposed to be a shitty piece of shit. Not legions of dross so you can find the good stuff and feel good, just legions of dross and no good stuff. The actual good things are accidental mistakes that they didn't intend to exist, and will nerf back to dross as soon as they find out about them.
EDIT: Like remember their polymorph ruling about how people with medium or heavy load have to keep those penalties when they poly? Like, they are so fucking mad about halfings loading up 200lbs of gear, then polymorphing into a Hydra and then carrying 200lbs of stuff without any penalty. WHO FUCKING CARES. They can also just put that stuff in a fucking bag and carry it as a Hydra. That ruling is literally just that one of the devs was GMing a game with some player who used polymorph to carry stuff, and then he got mad at the filthy player for doing something cool, and they nerfed it in a FAQ entry.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Insomniac wrote:So then it really is like Magic, where MTG deliberates prints crappy cards and junk rares so you "feel good" when you understand "card evaluation." So Paizo prints bullshit feats, races, talents, spells and items, hell, maybe even bullshit CLASSES on purpose and you're supposed to feel good when you understand "evaluation." But even still, Magic has undergone a colossal amount of power creep and they want people to find out the decks they found in testing and they deliberately push card power and are happy to do it.
No, literally the opposite is what he is saying. He is saying that everything that ever gets made is supposed to be a shitty piece of shit. Not legions of dross so you can find the good stuff and feel good, just legions of dross and no good stuff. The actual good things are accidental mistakes that they didn't intend to exist, and will nerf back to dross as soon as they find out about them.
EDIT: Like remember their polymorph ruling about how people with medium or heavy load have to keep those penalties when they poly? Like, they are so fucking mad about halfings loading up 200lbs of gear, then polymorphing into a Hydra and then carrying 200lbs of stuff without any penalty. WHO FUCKING CARES. They can also just put that stuff in a fucking bag and carry it as a Hydra. That ruling is literally just that one of the devs was GMing a game with some player who used polymorph to carry stuff, and then he got mad at the filthy player for doing something cool, and they nerfed it in a FAQ entry.
*nod* *Sob*
Maxus wrote:Being wrong is something that rightly should be celebrated, because now you have a chance to correct and then you'll be better than you were five minutes ago. Perfection is a hollow shell, but perfectibility is something that is to be treasured.
Use Alter Summoned Monster on a spell like, say, Mount with the level adjusted by Heighten Spell to get an hours-long summoned monster. This should get some Pathfinder panties in a twist until the next hasty nerf. Hell, I can already predict what the nerf's going to be: 'the spells duration changes to 1 round/level or whatever is left of the original summoning effect, whichever is less'.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Lago PARANOIA wrote:Just a quick cheese injection.
Use Alter Summoned Monster on a spell like, say, Mount with the level adjusted by Heighten Spell to get an hours-long summoned monster. This should get some Pathfinder panties in a twist until the next hasty nerf. Hell, I can already predict what the nerf's going to be: 'the spells duration changes to 1 round/level or whatever is left of the original summoning effect, whichever is less'.
You might also be able to get away with individually transforming the horses from a communal mount spell.
Lago PARANOIA wrote:Hell, I can already predict what the nerf's going to be: 'the spells duration changes to 1 round/level or whatever is left of the original summoning effect, whichever is less'.
No, no. This is Paizo. Quite clearly, they will change Mount from Conjuration [summoning] to Conjuration [calling] and completely ignore absolutely all the problems that this raises.
Or they'll change Heighten Spell to no longer change the level of the spell and just add to the base DC. Either way, it's Paizo all over.
Last edited by RelentlessImp on Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Might as well grab Scared Geometry as well since we're dealing with two metamagics. Boom, I'm a monster for 2 hours/level and I only had to blow a couple low level slots.
Too bad scouting summons sucks, anyone have an alternative?
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.
In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
Huh. I find it amusing that the wording of Alter Summoned Monster means it's more for declawing any summoned opposition since you can replace something summoned with a level 9 spell with something summoned by a level 1 spell.
I'm assuming the rules are shit (as we are talking about Pathfinder) but I have to say the Occult Mysteries feels like it would mesh better with the standard game system than the third-party psionics from what I've read.
Unrelated gripe: I miss Ethergaunts. I thought those guys were pretty awesome.
In this moment, I am Ur-phoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my int score.
RelentlessImp wrote:Huh. I find it amusing that the wording of Alter Summoned Monster means it's more for declawing any summoned opposition since you can replace something summoned with a level 9 spell with something summoned by a level 1 spell.
Well, since ASM explicitly says the replacement is under the same conditions as the original creature, all you can really do with it is switch your summoned mount to some critter with wings or gills. Certainly not having a day-long summoned monster or something.
"No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style." - Steven Brust
You swap a creature summoned by a conjuration (summoning) spell for a creature you could summon with a summon monster or summon nature's ally spell. The new creature must be an option from a spell of the same level or lower as the spell that summoned the target. The new creature cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support it. The target can attempt a Will saving throw to negate this effect, but if the target is under your control, it receives no saving throw. Alter summoned monster does not alter the duration of the spell that summoned the target, nor does it affect any additional creatures summoned by the same spell as the target. The new creature has the same conditions and amount of damage as the target creature, and remains affected by all curses, diseases, poisons, and penalties that affected the target, but no other spells or effects carry over. Alter summoned monster is a spell of the same alignment type or types as the creature for which you exchange the target. An eidolon can't be targeted by this spell.
So, I see nothing wrong with this course of events-
Cast Mount heightened to sixth level with CL 12. You now have a horse for the next 24 hours.
Cast Alter Summoned Monster to swap the horse for, I don't know, a succubus. The original duration still applies. You now have a Succubi for the next 24 hours minus 1 round.
Get an inn room and bang a succubus for the next 24 hoursProfit?
Or, hell, get a huge earth elemental and tell it to gather adamantine or silver or gold or whatever. For 12 hours.
Edit: Worst case scenario, the alter summoned monster creature is under the Mount condition of "The steed serves willingly and well." Which means your succubus will let you ride her and do it well. Take that as you will.
Last edited by Prak on Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Prak wrote:Edit: Worst case scenario, the alter summoned monster creature is under the Mount condition of "The steed serves willingly and well." Which means your succubus will let you ride her and do it well. Take that as you will.
[/threadDerail] So you use magic to remove 'free will' from 'your' succubus, so you can force yourself on top of her(him/whatever)? [/threadDerail]
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Don't summoned creatures come the "Plane of [thing]?"
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Prak wrote:Edit: Worst case scenario, the alter summoned monster creature is under the Mount condition of "The steed serves willingly and well." Which means your succubus will let you ride her and do it well. Take that as you will.
[/threadDerail] So you use magic to remove 'free will' from 'your' succubus, so you can force yourself on top of her(him/whatever)? [/threadDerail]
Na, the Succubus never had free will in that scenario.
Red_Rob wrote:
I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
Korwin wrote:Na, the Succubus never had free will in that scenario.
[threadDerail] Are you saying 'free will' doesn't exist? Or are you saying the succubus had none before he/she/it (whatever) was summoned? [/threadDerail]
Or more on topic. Paizo released errata for the Advanced Racism Guide as well. The pathfinder forums are complaining about the nerfs it contains too.
Haven't really looked at it, but the scarred witch doctor no longer uses constitution to cast and now only has a special ability that its Int is considered to be 2 points higher. Because Orcs are smart these days.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
Korwin wrote:Na, the Succubus never had free will in that scenario.
[threadDerail] Are you saying 'free will' doesn't exist? Or are you saying the succubus had none before he/she/it (whatever) was summoned? [/threadDerail]
Or more on topic. Paizo released errata for the Advanced Racism Guide as well. The pathfinder forums are complaining about the nerfs it contains too.
Haven't really looked at it, but the scarred witch doctor no longer uses constitution to cast and now only has a special ability that its Int is considered to be 2 points higher. Because Orcs are smart these days.
Presumably, he means creatures summoned by summon monster are already not acting under their own volition. Though, summon monster has a duration measured in rounds, which puts a rather significant limit on the interplanar hanky panky. But then again if a succubus can't get you off in one round per caster level, who can?
Last edited by DSMatticus on Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ishy wrote:are you saying the succubus had none before he/she/it (whatever) was summoned?
Well, according to James Jacobs the succubus didn't even exist before being summoned. They are apparently "perfect copies" of the concept of a creature, despite what the book heavily implies.
However they still feel pain, so he stated it is "possibly evil but ABSOLUTELY chaotic" to use them to set off traps. Because of this you are supposed to pick a deity that would be okay with it. The examples of such deities included a LN, two N, and a CN, which of course doesn't make any sense (why would a Lawful deity by okay with an "absolutely chaotic" choice moreso than a chaotic one?), but then it is alignment, so sense is not assumed.
I honestly don't know where this lands re: succubus molestation, but is how Pathfinder (or at least Golarion) summoning is set up according to their lead world designer.
I'm trying to comprehend how that works in a metaphysical sense. I suppose it draws "planestuff" from the relevant plane to create the creature, since the alternative seems to be a Plane of Summonplasm.
Since demons are already made of planestuff from their homeplane(?), this means that a summoned succubus is physically identical to a normal succubus, and I'm suddenly very unsure as to what the difference is other than history of consciousness.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.
You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
I wonder if there should exist a condition that summoned monsters materialize within a standard action or a full action. Considering that combat lasts for 3-4 rounds (during typical play), it is probably a waste of actions. On the other hand, summoning monsters is a waste of an action during that turn, so it is entirely useless to have it around.
But I might be wrong about this. You get to act 4 times in a 3 turn sequence. Assuming that you have high Initiative.
AcidBlades wrote:I wonder if there should exist a condition that summoned monsters materialize within a standard action or a full action. Considering that combat lasts for 3-4 rounds (during typical play), it is probably a waste of actions. On the other hand, summoning monsters is a waste of an action during that turn, so it is entirely useless to have it around.
But I might be wrong about this. You get to act 4 times in a 3 turn sequence. Assuming that you have high Initiative.
Summons are like round/level buffs: ideally, you want to know just beforehand if you're about to have an encounter so you can pop your spells in safety and then bumrush the enemies before the duration ends.
A Man In Black wrote:I do not want people to feel like they can never get rid of their Guisarme or else they can't cast Evard's Swarm Of Black Tentacleguisarmes.
Voss wrote:Which is pretty classic WW bullshit, really. Suck people in and then announce that everyone was a dogfucker all along.
ishy wrote:are you saying the succubus had none before he/she/it (whatever) was summoned?
Well, according to James Jacobs the succubus didn't even exist before being summoned. They are apparently "perfect copies" of the concept of a creature, despite what the book heavily implies.
the rulebook wrote: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this.
Gary Gygax wrote:The player’s path to role-playing mastery begins with a thorough understanding of the rules of the game
Bigode wrote:I wouldn't normally make that blanket of a suggestion, but you seem to deserve it: scroll through the entire forum, read anything that looks interesting in term of design experience, then come back.
I want to emphasize that I agree it is obvious what the book says and I don't believe the following is actually a reasonable way to read it, but the explanation I've heard is that the place it is brought from and returned to is not necessarily "the planes" (and is instead "nothingness," I guess) because it does not directly say that like it does under Calling spells. The next sentence, about taking 24 hours to reform, also doesn't make a lot of sense if you assume they are "copies" but this is explained as a "limitation of the spell." It is patches on patches, but seems to have caught on as "the way it works" on Paizo's boards.
Last edited by Lurky Lurkpants on Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
