Logistics and Dragons [No Kaeliks]

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Post by K »

Honestly, I'd be tempted to jump straight to the fun stuff and leave the bookkeeping to the system.

I'd probably just use a Command points pool. Burning Command lets you recruit more guys and order existing troops to do things, and winning victories and spreading loot around raises your pool. You can even assume that minion-based construction costs Command because ogres build palisades for "not killing their ass" and not shiny coins they definitely can't spend in town.

Then just assume that the monsters/troops take care of their own needs. Kobolds build their own pumpkin farms and ogres bully kobolds into giving them pumpkins. Bandits pretend to be local hunters and trade pelts and meat for veg in town.

If you build each troop's behavior into the system, it takes the load off the player and lets them concentrate on doing EXplore, EXpand, EXterminate, and EXploit by going on adventures for new resources or warring or defending the base.
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Post by Ancient History »

Random thoughts:

Try sourcing 10,000 goats a month for a dungeon. You'll start investing in much more economical goblins instead of bugbears.

"Look, all I'm saying is that if we go all in on otyughs, slimes, and gelatinous cubes, and locate underneath a major human metropolis, we halve our construction costs AND it's self-sustaining. Hell, we can probably charge the city for sanitation."
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Post by OgreBattle »

Shrieking Banshee wrote:Did somebody say Dungeon Logistics?
http://mangafox.me/manga/dungeon_meshi/


Check out this manga called Dungeon Meshi. Fundamentally its about cooking and eating monsters in a D&D style multilevel dungeon facility. But it also goes into physiology of the monsters, and the logic that keeps the dungeon working renewably.
Good read

Image

I've been seeing a lot of 'dungeon crawler' manga lately, wonder if it's trending.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

MMO/fantasy settings are fertile grounds for light novels and manga, which is how most of us digest Japanese media. Also, there's a dungeon/kingdom running game in Japan that's popular called Meikyuu Kingdom.
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Post by Ancient History »

Still debating the logistics mechanics. The bare outline that seems to appeal to people from a top-level design perspective is a minimalist multiple-resource-management ruleset, organized by turns, with significant options for attracting/summoning/maintaining creatures; event-style incursions/invasions; and very many random tables.

We've actually chatted about a modified M:tG format that might be appropriate to part of this.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Ancient History wrote:We've actually chatted about a modified M:tG format that might be appropriate to part of this.
I see two solutions to a strategic troop recruiting/management/battle mini game along side typical D&D style adventuring that can work.

1) You have a D&D style combat system that actually CAN accommodate some at least moderate strategic troop battle content within the same mechanics. Your strategic management can do it's own thing, but in the same time scales as longer term D&D activities like item creation and travel.

2) You don't even HAVE a D&D style combat/adventure system and the whole game just IS a strategic troop recruiting/management/battle system that focuses pretty much entirely on that and your "PCs" are just leader bonuses/units within it.

I do not see some sort of hybrid of having a D&D game and a M:tG thing, or any dramatically different almost entirely discrete tacked on mini-game thing going on in parallel for the bits it can't handle ever really working in a good way.

You know my opinion on this. Thoroughly integrate your mini games or they can GTFO.
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Post by Username17 »

If you're going to run a D&D based game, the simple fact of the matter is that the game is not integrated with a mass battle or kingdom management minigame. If you were going to write a new edition and you weren't a lying shit weasel like Mearls, you'd demand those things. But if you want to write up some house rules and epicycles to play a game of D&D where the player characters rule over organizations and fortresses and territory... then you have to accept some compromises. Telling people to write all new source code or GTFO is deeply unhelpful. The fact is that when you're patching D&D you just have to deal with the fact that Rangers have no inherent ability to get forest hexes patrolled and Clerics have no mechanical representation of any church authority. Your minigames for economy, military, and organizational prestige are all going to be ad hoc. They simply are going to be, and ranting about how the perfect is the enemy of the good helps no one.

The costs in Stronghold Builder's Guide and Arms & Equipment Guide are actually not bad as places to start. Those rules give you a decent enough picture of what it costs to have a stone fortress of whatever size, minimally usable rules for what bonuses you can expect out of a library of various sizes, and a decent starting place for pricing out the wages of your army of tiny men. Could use some polish here and there, but it works OK. But what those games don't do is provide an economic framework for why you would actually want a castle of any particular size or a usable mass battle mechanics that would make you give half a damn about whether you have 50 sling wielding skirmishers or 30 chainmail wearing medium infantry or whatever. You're going to have to scratch build those parts of the game.

And you're going to have to work around the fact that all of the character classes and equipment and costs and spells and shit were built in a world where those rules didn't fucking exist and there were no handles or dials for any ability to have any effect on or from those parts of the game or story.

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Post by Red_Rob »

The problem with a game like this is the dungeon simulator has to be deep enough to be engaging whilst balanced enough that you don't find out half way through the game that Vampires break everything because they don't need food or sleep and can create endless spawn from worthless minions (or whatever it happens to be).

Due to that I'd be tempted to steal an existing system that you know works and tweak it rather than creating something whole cloth. This could be a board game like Dungeon Lords or a video game like Dungeon Keeper, but stealing the basics means you already know the kinks and any pitfalls to be aware of.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

The idea of logistics games is always interesting to me, and I found this review for Meikyuu Kingdom. As well as this Meikyuu Kingdom Fantranslation (Somewhat intelligible translation; the setting involves almost standard fantasy content like Lovecraftian, Tolkienesque; lots of table rolling involved, d6-based tables); possibly the same pdf via Dropbox here.
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

I think one strategy that I've always liked is removing a little player agency at the beginning and have them come into the thing ignorant of precisely how it works- possibly they may only have a very few limited chargen options (or just character choices) to take them out of the "create an adventurer" mindset.
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JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
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Post by Kaelik »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:I think one strategy that I've always liked is removing a little player agency at the beginning and have them come into the thing ignorant of precisely how it works- possibly they may only have a very few limited chargen options (or just character choices) to take them out of the "create an adventurer" mindset.
That is an idea I can get behind 100%.

Because that maximizes my chances of stabbing it in the back hard enough to kill it.
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

Image

It's worked in practice for me multiple times. But only for the purpose of getting out of the regular "adventuring party" mindset. Obviously it ain't for everyone. Thus, a proposed option.
Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep
JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
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Post by PhoneLobster »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:It's worked in practice for me ... Obviously it ain't for everyone. Thus, a proposed option.
So... it totally works, you think it's great, but just in case anyone wants to disagree, it's only like an optional opinion, and it very probably won't work for anyone and it's not really like a recommendation or anything.

Gee. Thanks for that decisively meaningful addition.
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Post by Username17 »

In the case that you'e writing the game system yourself, which in this case you are, you're going to want to start running the game before it's finished. You won't have all the possible immigration options for jungle hexes, you won't have all the special resources nailed down, and so on and so forth. If the game starts in a Halfling dominated farmland, you can work with that. The rabbit hole goes very deep, but you don't have to get to the bottom of it before you start the game.

But I would never frame that in terms of taking away the player's agency. While it is true that you are by necessity going to only write the chart for sea floor recruitment after the players move into aquatic colonization, the players are still going to choose that aquatic colonization to force you to do that.

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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

Kaelik wrote:inarticulate bellowing
PhoneLobster wrote:lukewarm flatus
I'm doing something right, clearly.
Omegonthesane wrote:a glass armonica which causes a target city to have horrific nightmares that prevent sleep
JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
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Post by Ancient History »

Even the barebones version of Kobold Fortress won't be ready for a while. But are prospective players of Kobold Fortress interested in the conquer/clear out the dungeon in PC mode/transition to Dungeonbuilder mode with a half-formed ruleset that they discover as they go through the paces?
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

Ancient History wrote:Even the barebones version of Kobold Fortress won't be ready for a while. But are prospective players of Kobold Fortress interested in the conquer/clear out the dungeon in PC mode/transition to Dungeonbuilder mode with a half-formed ruleset that they discover as they go through the paces?
Depends on how fast-moving the system is. I don't want to spend half a year of real-time stabbing giant rats before we can declare ourselves kings of Castle Maus.
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Post by Ancient History »

Well, I was thinking starting out at level 6 to unlock Leadership; as a group you pick one hex out of the map, clear the (small) dungeon or ruins, and get to work.
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Post by Avoraciopoctules »

I'd be willing to give it a shot. I can commit to two or three posts a day, usually, and I'll try to let people know in advance if that changes.
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Post by Kaelik »

JigokuBosatsu wrote:
Kaelik wrote:inarticulate bellowing
You should probably try figuring out what words mean before you start using them.
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Post by Aryxbez »

Ancient History wrote:Even the barebones version of Kobold Fortress won't be ready for a while. But are prospective players of Kobold Fortress interested in the conquer/clear out the dungeon in PC mode/transition to Dungeonbuilder mode with a half-formed ruleset that they discover as they go through the paces?
Sorta reminds me of ActRaiser now I think about it, so I think I'm in for that. Albeit I've no clue what actual class I would want to play, I know it would be some kind of [Tome] Class (unless it's required we play spellcasters, which case I can understand that)
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Post by vagrant »

Ancient History wrote:Even the barebones version of Kobold Fortress won't be ready for a while. But are prospective players of Kobold Fortress interested in the conquer/clear out the dungeon in PC mode/transition to Dungeonbuilder mode with a half-formed ruleset that they discover as they go through the paces?
I'm totally down. I'm quite interested in building my paternalistic British Elven Imperium.
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Post by radthemad4 »

Ancient History wrote:Even the barebones version of Kobold Fortress won't be ready for a while. But are prospective players of Kobold Fortress interested in the conquer/clear out the dungeon in PC mode/transition to Dungeonbuilder mode with a half-formed ruleset that they discover as they go through the paces?
Yeah that sounds fun.

In the mean time, I'm going to experiment with Three.js to see if I can somewhat simplify the nation running/mass battles with some sort of 3D map visualizer/dice roller/temple of elemental evil/neverwinter nights DM Mode kind of thing, which'll probably take a few months anyway.

I can't do graphics for shit, so I suspect it'll look something like this
Image
but with your choice of videogame sprites.
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Post by OgreBattle »

As long as I get to drop rocks on things

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Post by Ancient History »

Okay, before I get table-crazy, let me give everybody a brief idea about what this kind of L&D ruleset might look like in practice:
THE BASICS
For the most part, dungeon-building proceeds as fortress-building does using the costs for traps, building, and other materials established in the Dungeon Master's Guide, the

Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, and the Arms and Equipment Guide. With enough gold, magic, and labor, you can build nearly any kind of dungeon you can imagine. To facilitate

building and running your dungeon concurrently, Logistics & Dragons provides additional rules that provide a level of top-down management tools for would-be dungeon keepers

and simulated events for gamemasters. These rules remain fairly abstract at a high level, but provide some practical experience of the logistics involved in dungeon-keeping,

including planning, progress, maintenance, attracting new denizens, and incursions by adventurers and competition with rival forces of darkness.

THE TURN
Logistics & Dragons games are turn-based, like many wargames and popular 4X games. Each turn represents a week of time within the game-setting, and is divided into a number of

phases which are addressed in order:

1) Toll - Creatures and Holdings you control generate Koku and Gold.

2) Upkeep - Creatures in the dungeon consume Koku and Gold based on their needs.

3) Toil - Projects already in-progress advance by one week, consuming Koku or Gold as necessary. Scripted actions like spellcasting or patrols also take place during the Toil

phase.

4) Events - A random event is rolled on Table 1-1: Random Events. This may require additional rolls or spawn in-character actions.

5) Action - Any in-character actions caused by Events are resolved first. Afterwards, players may choose to have their characters undertake additional in-character actions,

like casting spells, raiding nearby trade routes or settlement, and recruiting new denizens and minions.

6) Planning - Players determine what plans will be made for the following turn, including whether or not to halt or delay any projects already in progress or to start new

ones, changing work assignments for followers, etc.

7) End of Turn - The turn ends, and any end-of-turn effects are evaluated and implemented. The next turn begins.

THE HEX
Every dungeon is located somewhere, and the area surrounding it represents its area of influence. To represent this simply, the dungeon is considered to exist at the center of

a hexagon where the distance between the parallel sides is six kilometers. While the dungeon may not control everything that goes on in its hex, it does depend on the basic

resources in the hex to feed and maintain the dungeon - effectively, each hex produces an amount of koku determined by its type. See Table 1-6: Hex Production.

THE RESOURCES
The two major resources for Logistics & Dragons are Gil and Koku. The amount of gil that the dungeonkeepers control is called the Hoard, while the amount of koku that the

dungeonkeepers control is called the Supply.

Gil is a representative of monetary wealth, and may not explicitly be gold coins, but include ingots of precious metal, non-perishable trade goods, local currencies, gems, and

the like. Dungeons, unless they set up minting, mining, alchemy, or trade operations, often have limited ability to produce gil, which is mostly seized from raids or slain

adventurers and added to the Hoard. Aside from the utility of spending gil to build your dungeon, a large Hoard is useful for recruiting minions and attracting denizens.

Specialists and creatures with character levels may also require a weekly allowance (see Table 1-2: Allowances). Mercenaries and other professionals will require a monthly fee

in gil in addition to their koku upkeep. One gil is equivalent to 100 gold pieces.

Koku is a representative of necessary materials for life, usually food but also potable water, basic medicines, material for clothing and simple weapons and other necessities

of life. Unlike gil, koku is much more abstract and measured on a yearly basis: one koku is the amount of supplies necessary to sustain one small or medium-sized creature and

keep it healthy, and includes both stored food and goods as well as that available year-round from hunting, farming, and other activities. Larger creatures require

comparatively more resources to feed and take care of (see Table 1-3: Koku Costs).

Koku is generated by Hex and Holdings or acquired by trade, though it may be temporarily boosted by spellcasting or raids; the total amount available in a given turn is deemed

the Supply. As long as you generate koku equal to or greater than the amount your minions and denizens consume, they will remain alive and healthy; if you generate less koku,

the weaker creatures will begin to starve, and may die, wander off, or be cannibalized. Every Upkeep Phase that creatures in your dungeon are starving, roll on Table 1-4:

Starvation. High Supply ratings provide a bonus for recruiting minions and attracting denizens.

Some monsters like Mindflayers and Vampires may have special feeding requirements other than koku. These creatures' requirements are assessed during the Upkeep Phase as well.

See Table 1-5: Special Upkeep Requirements.

Koku and gil do not represent special substances like adamantine, large gems, etc., which often must be mined, fabricated, or traded for if you want these substances in your

dungeon.

MINIONS & DENIZENS
An important part of any dungeon are the creatures that inhabit it, be they humanoids like kobolds or massive monsters like dragons. Dungeonkeepers with the Leadership feat

(or equivalent) will have access to followers and cohorts that are personally loyal to them; spellcasters or those with certain magic items might have magical control of

certain creatures, like undead. But most of the creatures in a dungeon probably fall outside these direct methods of control or coercion, and are generally divided into two

categories: Minions & Denizens.

Minions represent the creatures that a dungeonkeeper directly or indirectly controls. This includes followers and cohorts, but may also include other creatures that are

included in the dungeonkeeper's organization or who acknowledge their authority and follow their orders, through fear, bribery, admiration, love/lust, or some other reason.

Minions tend to be part of the social fabric of the dungeon, such as members of a common tribe, cult, or society, and share bonds of mutual support. Or maybe they'll just jump

if you shout loud enough and threaten them strong enough. Either way, minions are effectively under the control of dungeonkeepers and can be assigned tasks and expected to

carry them out.

Denizens, on the other hand, are not under the dungeonkeeper's direct control, even if they set up their lairs in or near a dungeon. They are often attracted by high Hoard and

Supply ratings, and represent the natural growth of the dungeon ecosystem. These tend to be the more independent monsters, although not necessarily the most powerful - a

denizen may be a rogue troglodyte that inhabits the water supply as easily as a dragon. Denizens are self-sufficient in terms of finding their own food, generally not being

scrupulous about stealing from your minions or Holdings, and so still count against your Supply, even if they don't follow your orders. Denizens can often be bribed or

intimidated into accomplishing specific tasks, however, and if the dungeonkeepers are sufficiently wily or powerful may become Minions.

Unless specifically recruited for their skills, non-follower minions with class levels are split evenly between Experts and Warriors. Denizens may be of any class or level; as

determined by the roll on Table 2-1: Immigration.

PROJECTS & TOIL
Aside from consuming koku, minions represent the dungeonkeeper's basic workforce for building the dungeon and accomplishing basic tasks, like working holdings, patrolling

sensitive areas, raiding nearby settlements and caravan routes. In addition to this toil, minions have free time they spend resting, drinking, mating, gambling, scribbling on

the walls, raising children, pursuing hobbies, attending religious services, etc. Dungeonkeepers can order their minions to double their Toil for the following turn by

avoiding these unnecessary activities, but it halves the creatures' Morale for the turn.

Building a dungeon is accomplished as a series of Projects; this basically follows the rules provided by the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook, but progress and costs are

incremental and minions represent "free" labor provided they're upkeep is maintained. A project may be as small as digging a trench for a latrine or as grand as erecting a

keep; progress on a project is made depends on the amount of labor and gil (representing materials) that goes into it, and a project is not complete until the turn after the

requisite gil has been spent and the requisite toil put in.

The crafting or acquiring of magic or psionic items represents a special kind of Project; if the dungeonkeepers don't have access access to casters or manifesters with the

requisite spells, powers, and feats to craft the item, then the project involves finding or commissioning the magic item from someone outside the dungeon. In this case, the

dungeonkeepers devote gil to the project each turn; the turn after the full market cost of the item is paid, it arrives (and, if magical architecture, is considered already

installed). If the dungeonkeepers want to craft the item themselves (either because they have the necessary feats/spells/powers/etc. or their minions do), the process is the

same, except they need only pay the cost of crafting the item instead of the full market price.

HOLDINGS & SPECIALISTS
A Holding consists of any aspect of the dungeon complex designed to produce specific goods, including Gold and Koku. For example, a gold mine would be a Holding, as would be a

farm or a blacksmith's shop. The gold mine produces gil, the farm produces koku; the blacksmith's shop can produce gil (representing the productiong or export of ironwork) according to the skill of the blacksmith, or the blacksmith can Toil at the production of iron arms, armor, and items as necessary for the dungeon.

Unless the dungeon already has an established Holding (such as an abandoned mine), then Holdings are constructed as other Projects, and require dedicated minions to produce koku and/or gil. For a list of sample holdings and their production values, see table 1-7: Holdings. Not all Holdings will be suitable to every Hex environment; for example, wet rice agriculture is not suitable (or profitable) in a Desert hex.

Specialists represent minions with Profession or Craft skills. These skills are not rolled individually, and the general rules for Profession and Craft skills are to be ignored. Instead, the specialist produces 0.5 gil for every +10 or part thereof in the skill roll per Turn of toil, or an equivalent amount of appropriate goods.

EXAMPLE
A 1st-level Orc Expert with Craft(Weaponsmithing) +3 (4 skill ranks, -1 Int) would produce 0.5 Gil for the Hoard, or an equivalent amount (50 gp) of weapons - such as three longswords (15 gp each) and a light mace (5 gp).


RECRUITING & IMMIGRATION


MORALE

EVENTS

ACTIONS

INCURSIONS



Table 1-1: Random Events (d100)

Table 1-2: Allowances (no roll)

Table 1-3: Koku Costs (no roll)

Table 1-4: Starvation (d100)

Table 1-5: Special Upkeep Requirements (no roll)

Table 1-6: Hex Production (no roll)

Table 1-7: Holdings (no roll)

Table 2-1: Immigration (d100)

Table 2-2: Incursion (d100)
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