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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle »

20 splintershots from 10 warriors rapid firing will deal 2.22 wounds to anything with a 3+ armor save be they wraithlords or senoritas. 20 s3 rending attacks vs something only wounded on a 6 gives you... the same 2.22 wounds, if you're hitting on a 3+. The idea of dark eldar troop choices being able to wound anything isn't all that dramatic.

While warriors and venoms can pew pew from 12"-36" away, wyches have to get into assault via av10 open topped transports, and there's only so many wyches that can be in base to base contact with a single wraithlord. I don't see a problem with giving s3 t3 a1(2) troops that get shredded by small arms fire rending.

Shoot just give them rending all the time, no need to restrict them to lower WS targets. One less situational rule to memorize makes the game run smoother. Have a fluff blurb about how the Commoragh Fighting Champions has wyches facing off against EVERYTHING in the galaxy, so they know how to kill anything they'll come across on the battlefield.
haywire
I like moving haywire to hellions. There's a fluff blurb about how hellions are street punks who get into turf skirmishes with warrior kabals ...but warriors also ride raiders and venoms. The imagery of hellions swooping at raiders to green goblin bomb them out of the skies then hack up the groundbound kabalites is cool.

I'd also give haywire as an option to trueborn, 'cause they've got money to buy whatever.
FrankTrollman wrote: Terrible idea
What would you suggest to make 40k less reliant on list building to win, and more reliant on soft counters/tactics?

I like the suggestions you had in the "Making a not-40k skirmish game" thread ( http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=55495& ... c&start=50_ )
The actual issue is what you want to apply against armor value and strength. The simple games workshop method is to give each weapon a damage and armor penetration number, which in turn means that it is a simple mathhammer exercise to determine what weapons are best against the enemies you have. On the other hand, if accuracy was folded into armor penetration or damage rolls, the best weapons against an opponent could be more situational, which in turn leads to more interesting tactics.

.
.
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Let's say you add accuracy to damage, and that accuracy is one higher at short range than at medium range. Let us also say that we can get 5 weapon carrying dudes for the price of 3 weapon carrying dudes with a weapon that does +1 damage. Now let us posit a space dinosaur whose strength is overcome by the normal dudes at medium range on a 6+.

So at medium range, the guys with bigger weapons are twice as good. At close range, they are only fifty percent better. At medium range, 3 big gunners has the offensive output against the space dinosaur of 6 regular gunners, but at close range only four and a half.

This makes in-game tactics matter more, and list building matter less, as Laertes said.
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Eldar Corsairs got updated, they can take troop jetbikes with haywire grenades, dark lances, splinter cannons and more:
Image

25pts for a splinter cannon, 40pts for a jump shoot jump darklance, and the felarch is ws5 and can take all of the weapons Sybarites lost in the 7e update. They also have Almost-Chaos Eldar with w2, FNP, and lowers ld of any other Eldar around them by 1. They also get better combat drugs to hammer home the "Hey DE players, start count-as'ing as Corsairs"

also includes 11 new decurions for CWE:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/10/ ... creep.html
Perils of the Warp Chart

Corsairs have their own unique Perils of the Warp chart. In addition to the Void Dreamer, Barons and Princes can be Psykers.

D6
1- Devoured. No Ld check. The Psyker is claimed by She Who Thirsts. Gains Demon, Hatred (Khorne), Rending, and may run +3 inches. Control switches to your opponent. If the psyker is part of a unit they’re locked in combat.

2-3 Soul-Wracked. Slaanesh gives them a back massage is basically what the fluff says. The unit (not just the model) are pinned and your opponent gets to change the target of the psychic power being cast.

4-5 Warp Terrors. Demons swirl about the veil. Unit and all Corsair units within 6″ must make a morale check on 3D6 take the two highest or fall back.

6 The Eye of She Who Thirsts. The Psyker gets the attention of Slaanesh. For the rest of the game perils happen for the psyker on any doubles.

Psychic Powers

– Psychic power #5: Warp Tunnel – WC2 – Pick a friendly unit within 6″. Make a no-scatter Deep Strike anywhere on the table. The target may shoot and assault as normal. For every 6″ moved this way roll a D6, for every 1 rolled take a wound (saves allowed).

– as a whole their psychic powers are pretty average though. The one that puts enemies into ongoing reserve is powerful but it’s WC3. Not witchfire though so that’s good.

– Primaris power under Aethermancy… not so good IMO.

Path-Ward, WC2 (why?) – Blessing, only works on Corsair faction units. The unit automatically gets a ‘6’ on difficult terrain rolls, charge distances, thrust moves, hit and run moves, reckless abandon special rules. If it was a D3, it’s a 3.

I guess that’s a very long, predictable charge range though.

Army Special Rules & Info

By the way, regular troop Corsairs (now called Reaver Bands), got defensive grenades.
Not sure about the vampire hunter. Firestorm yes. Lynx is still there, holofields unchanged. Sonic lance unchanged, It has a whole new gun though:

Corsairs get these two rules:
– Dancing on the Blade’s Edge: Corsairs are piratey and stuff and not the most disciplined. They come with two Ld Values, ie 8/5. You use the lower value when trying to regroup.

– Reckless Abandon: If within 12″ of an enemy, the unit can “battle focus” only after shooting. But don’t roll D6, it’s a flat 6″. Jetpack units get 6+D6″.

Princes can take relics from either book as well as the Harlequin book. Hello Mask of Secrets.
Dissonance cannon: 24″ S5, AP4, Heavy 1, pinning. For each additional model in the unit that hits, add +1S and -1AP. So if three hit that’s S7 AP2 on all of them. Not bad.

grenades – Tanglefield
S2, AP-, blast. Any unit hit by it takes a strength test, if failed reduce initiative and WS in half until next turn.

So the cloud dancer felarch comes with a brace of pistols, either or both of which can be exchanged for a list of named items…
… but the default loadout just says ‘brace of pistols’.
Meaning what – brace of shuriken pistols? Fusion pistols? Laspistols?
Brace of Pistols is wargear that effectively gives access to 2 shuriken pistols and 2 splinter pistols.

– Yes the Corsair Prince and Baron can both take a Cloud Runner jetbike.

– The Baron is a 30 point HQ base, super cheap. He’s not an IC, can take a lot of upgrades such as a shadowfield, pay 15 pts to become a lv1 psyker. I think he’ll see a lot of action.

– The Prince dropped 25 pts. Anything with 12″ uses his Ld.

– Yes Corsairs have a pistol fetish. They have access to 4 pistols (but can of course only fire 2). For one, this means that they all have 2 CCW.

– There are scout Corsairs called Ghostwalkers. They get stealth, scout, infiltrate, plasma and defensive grenades, and a lasblaster. For one point per model they can get longrifles. They can also get flamers, fusion guns, shredders, and blasters (1 per 5). And they can get haywire grenades.

– Corsair jetpacks grant 4+ armor

CW Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Harlequins are battle brothers. Tau, Imperials are Desperate allies, never may be in a list with Chaos, Nids, Crons. Nobody is allies of Convenience for Corsairs (except different parts of their own detachment lol)hey gained open-topped… But get 4++ rerollable vs shooting whenever they jumped or deep struck on the previous turn.

– For +10 points Corsair Reavers (“basic” Corsairs) can all upgrade to Void Hardened armor. This gives them 3+ armor and re-rolls for dangerous terrain and difficult terrain, but they lose Fleet.

– Balelight: Pistol 3D3, rending, blind, one use, 8″, S3, AP6.

– Elite Slot: Malevolent Band. These corsairs are half-insane because of Slaanesh gnawing at their souls and therefore charge into battle with berzerker-like rage.

: Any Corsairs within 6″ of them get -1Ld
: They’re 2W models with FnP
: Fear, fearless, fleet, furious charge, rage
: 5 points gets the whole unit Jetpacks or Heavy mesh (4+ armor). No-brainer.
: Can get melta bombs, venom blades, power swords (1 per 5)
: Comes with brace of pistols and a CCW

In other news, the Corsair Prince can be configured as a “drug lord” and have a better combat drug chart than dark eldar – and it works for his whole detachment. Roll a 6 on the drug chart and your prince goes full El Chapo and gets to roll for two drugs.
Dark Eldar need a new codex.

Looks like no new model support other than the new WK and the jetbikes and those look like modded kits. FW told me though that they plan on releasing more in the future but couldn’t say what or when.

Corsair Formations & Detachments

Anyway Corsairs can take a CAD. Or they can organize into a…
Corsair Fleet Raiding Company
Mandatory stuff:
– Command Crew (1-2 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 LoW)
– Primary Coterie (1 HQ, 1-3 Troops, 0-2 Elites, 0-2 Fast, 1 Heavy)

Optional 0-3 Coteries (same as primary)

Features:
– Obsec Troops
– Coterie Specializations. Each Coterie can select one of the following rules and you can’t double up on any rule pick. (Command Crew doesnt get one):

Titan Breakers – Preferred enemy tank and walker
Head Takers – Rerolls 1 to wound in CC
Sky Burners – Deep strikes scatter D6 and reroll failed reserve rolls (optional)
Vault Breechers – Gain Dissonance breech
Night Hunters – Gain Night Vision and Preferred Enemy (stuff at night)
Hate Bringers – Pick an enemy unit on turn 1. The Coterie’s infantry and jetbikes get Hatred (those guys) for the whole game and if you kill those guys gain a VP. Any part of your army can kill it for the VP doesn’t have to be the coterie with this ability or even Corsairs.

Drawback!!! Internal Politics: Your Coteries count each other as Allies of Convenience. This is potentially a big deal.

The book also has more choices for the Eldar Warhost formation in the CW Codex. Lots more actually. Here’s one.

Lord of the Undying Host (Command Choice)
1 Wraithseer
1-3 units of Wraithblades

Special Rules:
– Wisdom Beyond the Veil: roll 2D6 for warlord trait, pick the one you like
– Bound to Serve: Wraithblades and Wraithseer re-roll to-hit rolls of ‘1’ in the first round of CC

Warhost (decurion type detachment)

There’s an alternate to the Eldar Warhost in here, sort of a modified version where instead of getting the buffed battle focus thing, you pick a trait.

Warhosts of the Pale Courts (The Pale Courts are the minor craftworlds), uses normal auxiliary and command choices
– Pale Courts Battlehost: Farseer, 3 Guardian Defender units, 0-1 Warlock councils
– Pick one of 11 traits.

> Crossroads of Eternity: The Battlehost may include a Harlequin Troupe, counts as CE Eldar faction

> Children of Khaine: The 3 units of Guardians must be Storm Guardians who are S4 when they roll a ‘6’ to hit

> Disciples of Vaul: The Battlehost adds 1-3 Vaul’s Wrath batteries and the Guardians may take 1 support weapon per 5 models

> Graveyard of Dreams: The Battlehost must take 3 Wraithblade units, the Guardians become 0-3. The wraithblades get Crusader.

> Tomb-Ship of Fallen Heroes: The Battlehost uses a Spiritseer or Wraithseer instead of the Farseer, roll 2D6 take the best for WL traits. Must also take a Wraithlord.

> Aspect-Lord Shrine: Guardians become 0-3, Battlehost must include three Aspect Warrior units from a single aspect.

> Fortress of Discipline – Battlehost adds 1-3 War Walkers or 1 unit of Wasps. They get pinning against anything Guardians targeted that turn.

> Swift to Anger – Battlehost must inclide 1-3 Vyper units or 1 Hornet unit. They get outflank and re-roll reserve rolls.

> Halls of Martial Splendor – Take an Autarch instead of the Farseer in the Battlehost. He re-rolls misses and wounds in a challenge.

The strong stand alone – The Battlehost adds a single squadron of Warp Hunters, Night Spinners, or Fire Prisms. Your army can’t contain any other detachments except more Pale Courts Warhosts.
Here's some Corsair HQ choices that let you decide if your corsair is channeling an ork, chaos, necrons, or duke sliscus
Anyway, Corsair Princes/Princesses all have their own dark little obsessions and *may* take one of the following paths at no cost:

Traveler of Forgotten Paths - The Webway Prince. Because walking is for chumps. The Prince gets a Multi-phase key generator and any other character in the detachment can get one too. So :cuss is this thing?

Multiphase Key Generator - the model gets Deep Strike, something about carving the webway. In addition it may be activated during any shooting phase instead of shooting to open up a webway gate within 3" of the model. All your reserves can enter through it except not vehicles. If any of your guys are falling back within 3" of it, they can go in it and enter ongoing reserves.

C) Collector of Ancient Treasures - This is how the Prince can get a relic from CWE, DE, or Harlequins. Mask of Secrets maybe. Also any other character in the detachment can slap Master-Crafted on their weapon for 10 pts. It doesn't say it has to be a CC weapon.

D) Reaper of the Outer Dark - For the Prince that's really loves killing. The Prince gets Rampage and any unit in the detachment can get Rage for free. But whenever they're within 8" they *must* charge. If they killed a unit with shooting and have another enemy within 8" they get to (must) charge it.

E) Wielder of Profane Powers - This Prince picked up something that should have been left unfound. Gains +1 psychic ML, meaning they can be ML2. Must pick at least one Maelefic Demonology power and other psykers in the detachment get access to Demonology. When they peril, replace the 6 (remember they have their own perils chart as I posted) with:

Lust for Dark Power: The Prince went too far down the dark path (d'oh!). For the rest of the game at the beginning of every psychic phase the Prince must attempt a Malefic power using at least 2WC. If for some reason they can't, they get pinned automatically.

F) Survivor of Endless Darkness - For the geriatric prince 3000 years old who's basically a ghoul going around sipping elixers to postpone death. This prince is insane and possibly sort of like a mummy with makeup. Gains It Will Not Die but if he fails it, he crumples to the ground coughing up dust (auto-pinned).

Any other units in the detachment can get FnP for +10 points.

A) Seeker of Forbidden Pleasures (aka The Drug Lord) - The Corsair Prince gains the Corsair Combat Drugs special rule and any unit in the same detachment (infantry/JP infantry, jetbike) may get Corsair Combat Drugs for +15 points per unit.

Corsair Combat Drugs (aka the "those Dark Eldar drugs just make me sleepy" drug list).
1) +1A
2) +1S
3) +1I
4) +1T
5) +1 WS
6) Roll for two drugs (!!!)

Vehicles
New Vehicle Details

- The Phoenix Bomber looks unchanged other than dropping 20 points.

As well as the Wraithknight (there's a new one) and the new Revenant.

Unfortunately Prism blasters (focused and dispersed), as well as Ghostlight are the same as they are on the FAQ downloadable from FW's website, which is to say, lacking. I don't have info on the Spear of Twlight, Irillyth, or Spectres themselves though, sorry. I have the corsair stuff mostly.

Is Firestorm in the book?
Yes. Its gun got rending and ignores cover vs skimmers and flyers.

- Warp Hunter, 185 points, can be squadroned. 36" Str: D minus 1 AP2 with small blast barrage D3+1 shots. Also has a template firing mode.

- Kinetic Fields grants a 5++ save to vehicles, increasing to 4++ re-rollable if the vehicle deep strikes or moves flat out. Wasps get it when jumping. Doesnt work in melee but this is damn good.

The Phantoms guns got a boost

Eldar Lynx:
12/12/11, 5 HP
Heavy Support NOT a superheavy
Costs 5 more than a Land Raider
Flyer with skimmer mode
Can Deep Strike
Can't jink when flying (it's too clumsy), only snap firing when flying
Comes with a shuriken cannon, can turn it into a BL/SL/SC for +5 pts

Lynx Pulsar:
Saturation: 48" Str, AP2, Ordinance 1, Large Blast
Salvo: 48" Str, AP2, Ordinance 3, Twin-Linked

it's 60 pts cheaper and got +1 armor f/s

The Lynx Pulsar has an Ordinance 3, S: D, AP2, Twin-linked 48" firing mode now, as well as the Large blast D which also gets ordinance

Sonic lance is unchanged
Revenant Titan

Gets a heavy 4 S8 AP3 skyfire, interceptor, sunder "Cloudstrike" missile system. And it's only hit on 6's in close combat now (GMCs and superheavy walkers hit it on a 5+). Titan holofields are unchanged. Weapons are unchanged.

- The Nightwing is only 25 points more than a naked Farseer. It has stealth and Agile.

- you can arm a Wasp with both a dark lance and a bright lance.

- Wasps get D6+1 hammers of wrath when they assault using their jump jets. They gained open-topped... But get 4++ rerollable vs shooting whenever they jumped or deep struck on the previous turn.

There's also a Warp Spider Wraithknight now:
Image
Corsair princes also follow the scorpion strength training program and have s4 base. They can take voidsabers, which are +1S ap3 rending. With a lucky drug roll this means s6 attacks coming from your space elf ninja pirate captain. With the "Reaper" trait you get rage and rampage for potentially +5 attacks on the charge.

Rules summary here:
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,0 ... sairs_(7E)
Last edited by OgreBattle on Thu Dec 24, 2015 6:19 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

OgreBattle wrote:20 splintershots from 10 warriors rapid firing will deal 2.22 wounds to anything with a 3+ armor save be they wraithlords or senoritas. 20 s3 rending attacks vs something only wounded on a 6 gives you... the same 2.22 wounds, if you're hitting on a 3+. The idea of dark eldar troop choices being able to wound anything isn't all that dramatic.
That's a really special case though. S3 Rending against Spess marines would deal 2.96 wounds; and 3.70 wounds against Sisters. Meanwhile if you sent the 4+ Poison against Guardsmen, the kill count would rise to 4.44 wounds, while the 3+ Rending rises to 5.19. Rending and Poison are quite different from one another (Rending being better in almost all cases). There's even a time when Poison is better than Rending - against T5 Sv 5+ the Rending does 3.70 wounds and the Poison does 4.44 wounds. And if anyone actually used Ogryn, that would be an interesting case.
OgreBattle wrote:What would you suggest to make 40k less reliant on list building to win, and more reliant on soft counters/tactics?
As far as AP goes, I would like AP to be a range. That is, you would have "advantage" shots and "disadvantage" shots, and if you got advantage your AP would be 1 less and if you got disadvantage your AP would be 1 more. So Space Marines in cover would still be able to shrug off Reaper Missiles, and Space Marines in a crossfire would get blown to smitherines by Heavy Bolters.

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Post by maglag »

FrankTrollman wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:20 splintershots from 10 warriors rapid firing will deal 2.22 wounds to anything with a 3+ armor save be they wraithlords or senoritas. 20 s3 rending attacks vs something only wounded on a 6 gives you... the same 2.22 wounds, if you're hitting on a 3+. The idea of dark eldar troop choices being able to wound anything isn't all that dramatic.
That's a really special case though. S3 Rending against Spess marines would deal 2.96 wounds; and 3.70 wounds against Sisters. Meanwhile if you sent the 4+ Poison against Guardsmen, the kill count would rise to 4.44 wounds, while the 3+ Rending rises to 5.19. Rending and Poison are quite different from one another (Rending being better in almost all cases). There's even a time when Poison is better than Rending - against T5 Sv 5+ the Rending does 3.70 wounds and the Poison does 4.44 wounds. And if anyone actually used Ogryn, that would be an interesting case.
There's also the part where poison is useless against vehicles and basic warriors are powerless in the face of METAL BAWKSES, but rending wyches still don't give a fuck and will tear rhinos and chimeras and razorbacks and light-medium dreads to pieces without upgrades. (whereas when the warriors get charged by a dread, they have zero chance of victory).
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Post by Username17 »

maglag wrote: There's also the part where poison is useless against vehicles and basic warriors are powerless in the face of METAL BAWKSES, but rending wyches still don't give a fuck and will tear rhinos and chimeras and razorbacks and light-medium dreads to pieces without upgrades. (whereas when the warriors get charged by a dread, they have zero chance of victory).
Isn't rending against vehicle +d3 on a 6 penetration roll? So for every 36 Wych attacks against a WS4, AV 12 Dread, you get 1 Glancing hit? That seems kind of terrible. Like, against Rhinos I think that you're literally better off clamping haywire grenades to the thing than you are trying to tear it up with rending claws.

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Post by OgreBattle »

Three rending attacks at s3 (such as with charging koumei wyches) is equivalent to a single s6 krak grenade against armor. The most commonly played armies in 40k come with krak standard, so DE getting troops that can glance vehicles in assault is not too strange.

The current 40k meta also heavily favors shooting over assault, so I'm generally in favor of powering up assault troops.
As far as AP goes, I would like AP to be a range. That is, you would have "advantage" shots and "disadvantage" shots, and if you got advantage your AP would be 1 less and if you got disadvantage your AP would be 1 more. So Space Marines in cover would still be able to shrug off Reaper Missiles, and Space Marines in a crossfire would get blown to smitherines by Heavy Bolters.
Off the top of your head what do you think should grant advantage/disadvantage?

Disadvantage
-Target is in (heavy?) cover

Advantage
-Two or more units are shooting at the target from 90-180 degree angle from each other
-Target is within 6" (make it a universal rule or restrict it to certain weapons?)
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Post by Koumei »

That is correct. And against an Ironclad Dread (Front Armour 13) they can just apply lubricant and take what's coming to them. Against a regular, yes, you need to hit on a 3+, roll a 6 to Penetrate, then roll a further 3 to scratch a HP off. Which is 1/27 if my math is right.

Against a Rhino, they nibble on its Rear Armour automatically because it's not a Dreadnought, so they "just" need the 6 to get a Hull Point. Odds of hitting depend entirely on how fast it went, but are typically either automatic for stationary (so flat-out 1/6 which is still way worse than Haywires) or 4+ for regular movement (so 1/12, meaning a unit on the charge won't quite manage to rip it apart).

I could a see benefit to not giving them a special rule though, and instead giving them a Poisoned 4+ Weapon instead of the basic CCW. Make their special thing the same as the special thing of Warriors, except up close. It means a very simple thing that is basically army-wide and then for anti-tank they need Reavers + upgrades, Haywires on characters, Haywires on Hellions, Lances on origami vehicles, or Allies. Which means they're less like miniature genestealers, and more like slower T-sac hormagants.

Also I was not expecting people to... give much of a shit, to be honest. What with it being a fringe faction of a fringe army of a game nobody in their right mind actually likes or plays.
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Post by Koumei »

Actually while we're on it, would anyone particularly like a review of any of the d6 Edition Chaos Meringues, Chaos Daemons or Adepta Sororitas? Or other "Can't actually be used anywhere" creative thought exercises like Ork Decurions or Codex: Genestealer Cults or whatever?
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Post by maglag »

Kayos is the only true answer.

Would also like to hear your opinion on sisters since they seem to be one of your favorite armies.
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Post by Koumei »

Okay, Sisters had what appears to be an okay dex back in 2Ed, when they had T 4 and a relatively simple army-wide Faith rule. 3Ed gave them Codex: Witch Hunters, which was all right for its time. They had their weaknesses, certainly, but they worked. Then in 4Ed they started to drop back. In 5Ed you could either go "Eleven Immolators, as many Melta Guns as you can" and hope for the best, or you can just go home.

Then they received a White Dwarf "codex" that was worse in every single way. Except for Immolators with Heavy Bolters getting special ammo that let them re-roll failed Wounds. That bit was okay. Then that was updated to a download-only dex in d6Ed which...
-Changed some point costs
-Fixed the problem where Saint Celestine was worth taking
-Changed Acts of Faith to be rare (1/game for each unit) as well as unreliable and underwhelming
-Removed the nice bit about Heavy Bolters on Immolators
-Gave them their own Strategic Mission cards and Warlord Traits random table

They still use the metal minis that were made in 1863 and cost a hundred dollars each, and they broke the mold for the Immolator so you can't even get Immolators any more, or Rhinos for that matter - you can just get a Space Marine Rhino/Razorback, arbitrarily limit the weapons available, and then try (and fail) to free-hand paint iconography on.

I will cover Chaos later. Expect my full disappointment and a lot of randomly-rolled drinking.
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Post by maglag »

Ah, 3e sisters could pull some nice tricks, like 2+ Invulnerable save Cannoness, and making all of a squad's bolters and flamers AP 1. They also had that organ tank that fired 1d6 AP 1 krak missiles hitting side armor automatically (as they were falling from above).

I think the download-only 6ed gave sisters a 6+inv across the board in return for losing pretty much all of the above besides what Koumei mentioned, but nobody cares.

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Post by Username17 »

The 2e Sisters were a deliberately incomplete codex. You got just three shooting weapons (bolter, flamer, and melta, which increases to eight if you account for the heavy versions and that bolters and flamers have pistol versions as well). You got no heavy vehicle options.

The purpose of the Sisters in 2nd edition was that they were the first "ally codex." As a Guard player, you were allowed to take a small detachment of Sisters. And honestly, getting a pack of jump back troops with flamers as Guard was pretty exciting. It let you hit enemies in a way they were not expecting and made your "sit back and shoot lascannons" strategy much safer.

The Sisters in the 3e Grey codex were horribly limited. But what they got was cheap and good. Retributors payed less extra points for having lots of heavy weapons than most other factions.

And ever since then, it's all been bullshit. No new models, no breadth, no concept of what the "army" should be doing. If it's not providing a couple elite units to shore up a Guard army, it needs more units and the ability to cover tactical roles.

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Post by Koumei »

That is true. But they seemed pretty solid for their specific role in 2E. Were I doing the Sisters' dex, well, it'd be a labour of love so it'd take ages and require a lot of testing ideas and so on, but I'd basically ignore the existing models and 100% use the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy "Totally Not Sisters of Battle, Honest" minis. And for vehicles, "stuff that can be easily converted". And as they would not be tied particularly firmly to an existing codex, I'd have more freedom than with Wych Cults, so I'd work out what to do with Acts of Faith without referencing 5-6Ed and the only Random Table would be warlord traits.

But that's for another day, if ever.

CHAOS SPACE MARINES

Now, this is a d6Ed codex, so it's like a pre-Necrons 7Ed dex. Except more random.

So to start with, Characters all have to Issue and Accept challenges. Furthermore, every time a Character kills an enemy Character, you have to roll on a Random Table (1, no drinks ;_;) for their Chaos Boon received. This ranges from nothing to "you become a Chaos Spawn, hahaha" to gaining a special rule (it's possible to roll one that is useless for you, like immunity to Instant Death on a character with only 1 Wound) to stat boosts, to "Replace model with a Daemon Prince, this is awesome" to "Roll another 1d3+1 times, re-rolling the transformations".

Yes, you roll a so-called d66 for that.

Various units can be upgraded to Veterans of the Long War. This grants them +1 Ld and Hatred (Space Marines). Of note is that the bulk of the army isn't Fearless and doesn't replace Morale with their own stupid rules, so it's an actual close combat army that has to give a shit about things like Fear. That is seriously rare. Obviously some things are Fearless, still.

Daemon Weapons are no longer god-specific, it's just "Roll 1d6. You get that many bonus attacks, unless you roll a 1 in which case you take an automatic Wound with no Armour Saves and are WS 1 for the rest of the round". That's not really a random table, but I think it's close enough to... damnit, another 1.

Warlord Traits are a bubble of Preferred Enemy (Space Marines), Soul Blaze for his melee weapons (and those of his unit), 1d3 Infantry gain Infiltrate, Hatred for him + unit, Fear, and the ability to re-roll Chaos Boons (just for him). Very situational table there.

Just for future note, the Daemon rule grants a 5++ and the Fear rule, and Daemonforge is a special thing most of the vehicles get, where 1/game they can re-roll all failed Wound/Penetrate rolls for one phase, but then suffer 1 automatic Hull Point of damage if they roll a 1 on a d6. Again, this is close enough to a random table to THERE WE GO, FIVE, DRINK THREE TIMES! Daemonic Possession for vehicles reduces them to BS 3 but lets them ignore Crew Shaken and Stunned on a 2+ (embarked units are still affected). Also roll a d6 and finish your drink any time a unit embarks. On a 1, one model is removed at random and the vehicle heals 1 Hull Point as it eats the model.

Some things can take Chaos Rewards:
Aura of Dark Glory is a 5++
Combat Familiar gives a couple of extra S 4 AP - attacks in CC
Juggernaut steed is +1 T +1 W +1 A and you become Cavalry
Disc of Tzeench is +1 A and you become a Jetbike
Palanquin of Nurgle is +2 W +1 A Very Bulky
Steed of Slaanesh is +1 A +3" to Run, Outflank, Acute Senses, Cavalry
Gift of Mutation lets you roll on the Chaos Boon table before the game starts
Ichor Blood potentially hurts people who hit you in close combat
Spell Familiar: re-roll failed Psychic tests

A Mark of Khorne gives Rage + Counter-Attack, Mark of Tzeench improves your Invulnerable Save by 1, Mark of Nurgle gives +1 T and Mark of Slaanesh gives +1 Initiative. If you have a Mark of Khorne you can't be a Psyker, if you have a Mark of anyone else, then at least one of your powers has to be drawn from that god's list.

Daemon Princes can also be upgraded: Khorne grants Furious Charge and Hatred (Daemons of Slaanesh), Tzeench grants Hatred (Daemons of Nurgle) and re-rolling all Saving Throw results of 1, Nurgle grants Shrouded, Slow and Purposeful and Hatred (Daemons of Tzeench), and Slaanesh grants Fleet, Rending, Run +3" and Hatred (Daemons of Khorne).

There are ALSO specific icons units can carry, based on the units. Vengeance (anyone) grants Fearless until you snipe the icon-bearer, Wrath (Khorne) grants Furious Charge and re-rolling charge distance, Flame (Tzeench) grants Soul Blaze to all Bolt weapons, Despair (Nurgle) grants Fear, and Excess (Slaanesh) grants Feel no Pain.

Tzeench has fairly average Psychic powers: a Strength 1d6+1 AP - Blast that makes casualties explode for more hits, "nearby friendly Character takes a S 4 AP - hit then rolls on the Chaos Boon table", a fairly short range S 8 AP 1 Beam that gets extra range on the explosions of any vehicles that explode from it, and a Poisoned 4+ (also Glances vehicles on a 4+) AP 2 Flamer Template.

Nurgle's powers are a short-range 1d6+1 hits at Poison 4+, "all your guns Get Hot" on one enemy unit, a disease for an enemy unit that rolls on a RANDOM TABLE (drink three times. Either -1 Attack but Shrouded, -1 S and can't run, or -1 S and T), or a short range Poisoned AP 2 Large Blast.

Slaanesh has a S 4 AP 4 Assault 4 Blind, Concussive, Pinning attack at 24", another fucking random table (drink three times. +1 I, +1 S or +1 A), curse an enemy unit to be at -1 WS and -1 BS and all sonic weapons are +1 S against them, and "target a unit so every model punches itself in the face".

Next time around I'll cover some actual units. Prepare to go absolutely mild for this.
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Post by maglag »

I would pay money for Koumei's toughest sisters of the galaxy paper codex.
Koumei wrote: So to start with, Characters all have to Issue and Accept challenges. Furthermore, every time a Character kills an enemy Character, you have to roll on a Random Table (1, no drinks ;_;) for their Chaos Boon received. This ranges from nothing to "you become a Chaos Spawn, hahaha" to gaining a special rule (it's possible to roll one that is useless for you, like immunity to Instant Death on a character with only 1 Wound) to stat boosts, to "Replace model with a Daemon Prince, this is awesome" to "Roll another 1d3+1 times, re-rolling the transformations".

Yes, you roll a so-called d66 for that.
Note: "replace model with a Daemon Prince" is actually shit when it happens to your super commander dude for which you bought a lot of upgrades, since the new Daemon prince was only the naked version, which is basically worst. At least they errata'd Abaddon to be immune to that result.

The WH fantasy KAYOS warriors book "fixed" this by having the daemon prince keep all of the commander's previous upgrades. Also was only a d12 table, and there was a much smaller chance for "this is completely useless for you ha ha!" results.
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maglag wrote:I would pay money for Koumei's toughest sisters of the galaxy paper codex.
Well it might be worth discussing ideas on it first because I don't just have a mostly-finished document lying around for it.
-I'd slightly expand their wargear beyond the Holy Trinity (Volkite weapons because heat rays are thematic and it helps round out their offensive abilities, crossbows/stake launchers with psi-shock bolts, missile launchers, without Frags and Kraks, but with Melta and Incendiary Missiles, and some fiery close combat options).
-I'd return them to T 4 (with S 4 T 5 Heroines) for resiliency, meaning they take shooting attacks like Space Marines, but are still (for the most part) S 3 WS 3 I 3 in close combat. The 6++ and Adamantium Will won't just be army-wide, but instead goes to unit upgrades (ie Veteran Sister Superior) and certain special units (Celestians, Seraphim).
-Instead of Acts of Faith, I kind of like the idea of doing something similar to 2Ed where you have a tally that determines an army-wide benefit. Instead of rolling on a random table (which is then adjusted on a unit-to-unit basis and potentially altered each turn), it'd be Turn Number + Modifiers. Maybe give some units "If the result is more than X, you can instead treat it as X for this unit because that's their favourite benefit".

Anyway.
Koumei wrote: Note: "replace model with a Daemon Prince" is actually shit when it happens to your super commander dude for which you bought a lot of upgrades, since the new Daemon prince was only the naked version, which is basically worst. At least they errata'd Abaddon to be immune to that result.
Yeah, and the Khorne book's thing about Blood Tithe points was better, too, and let you keep certain wargear choices.

Now onto the massive, bloated HQ section:

Abaddon the Failure is really expensive.
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He wears Terminator Armour, has high stats, turns Chosen into Troops choices, and is Fearless. With Eternal Warrior. He's also a Veteran of the Long War and has all four Marks of Chaos (and all the benefits), and has to be the Warlord. His sword is actually a Power Axe that strikes at normal initiative and is a Daemon Weapon, and his talon is a S x2 Lightning Claw. Because they're both Specialist Weapons, he gets the bonus attack for dual-wielding. No guns at all.

Huron Blackheart
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A Chaos Lord with Power Armour + Sigil of Corruption, a Power Axe, and a bionic limb that is S +2 AP 3 Melee, Armourbane, Shred, Specialist. Also it can be fired as a Heavy Flamer. He is a Fearless Veteran of the Long Pork, has a Combat Familiar, and is a Level 1 Psyker who has a different power available each turn, rolling 1d3 to pick between Biomancy, Pyromancy and Divination (don't drink), then rolling for which power is generated (and can't swap to the Primaris power).

Kharn the Betrayer
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Chaos Lord, impressive statline, Power Armour, Aura of Dark Glory, Grenades, Plasma Pistol (his BS is such that the only way he can miss is by having it explode in his face, but not high enough that he gets a re-roll on that). Fearless, Mark of Khorne, Furious Charge, Veteran of the Long Wang. Any melee attack that rolls a 1 to Hit automatically hits a friendly model (but not himself) if possible. He and his unit pass Deny the Witch rolls on a 2+ and he is immune to the Instant Death effect of Force Weapons. Finally his melee weapon, it's S +1 AP 2 Armourbane, and always hits on a 2+, even if it would normally hit automatically (ie even against stationary vehicles he has a chance of cutting his friends up). He turns Khorne Berserkers into Troops.

Ahriman
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Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Dark Glory, Grenades, Inferno Bolts (AP 3). Fearless, Mark of Tzeench, Level 4 Psyker, Veteran of the Long Mile. Has access to Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy and Tzeench. His staff is a S +2 AP 4 Force weapon, and lets him fire up to 3 Witchfire powers in the same Shooting Phase. I assume this has been erratad. He turns Thousand Sons into Troops.

Typhus
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Terminator Armour, Blight Grenades (Assault + Defensive), Fearless, Feel No Pain, Mark of Nurgle, Psyker Level 2, Veteran of the Long Winded Story. 1/game he can unleash his swarm of stuff instead of attacking in the Assault Phase. Centre a large blast on him, hitting everyone beneath it except him. S 4 AP 2 Ignores Cover. He has to draw all his powers from the Nurgle list. If he is in the army, any unit of Chaos Cultists can be made into Plague Zombies - gaining Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful, and can't take any options (errata later changed it so you can still increase the number of models, you just can't change their wargear of Mark them). They lose their guns, only having one CCW each. His scythe is a S +2 AP 2 Unwieldy Force Daemon Weapon. He turns Plague Marines into Troops.

Lucius
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Specially armoured with a 3+/5++ that deals a S 4 AP 2 Ignores Cover hit to attackers in close combat when he passes the save. He has a Power Sword, Doom Siren, Grenades, Fearless, Mark of Slaanesh, and Veterans of the Long Bore. His Attacks characteristic in a challenge equals the WS of his opponent. Also his whip grants the Shred rule to all of his close combat attacks and reduces the attacks of enemies in BtB contact by 1. He turns Noise Marines into Troops.

Fabulous Fabius Bile
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Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Grenades, Fearless, Veteran, and the ROD OF TORMENT (if you know what I mean). It's just a plain old Instant Death melee weapon. He also has a Needler at 18" S 1 AP 6 Assault 3 Poisoned 2+, and due to being The Chirugeon, he has S 5 A 5 and Feel No Pain. Finally, pick one unit of Chaos Space Marines. They get Fearless and +1 S for the whole game because they are enhanced by him. This is a nice change after the previous edition's random table.

I am already bored and that's just the named characters.
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Post by maglag »

Koumei wrote: Well it might be worth discussing ideas on it first because I don't just have a mostly-finished document lying around for it.
-I'd slightly expand their wargear beyond the Holy Trinity (Volkite weapons because heat rays are thematic and it helps round out their offensive abilities, crossbows/stake launchers with psi-shock bolts, missile launchers, without Frags and Kraks, but with Melta and Incendiary Missiles, and some fiery close combat options).
Whole units with crossbows would be hilarious yet in-theme, since ghey knights run around with halberds and whatnot.

Melta (AP 1?) and incendiary missiles (area ignores cover?) sounds pretty good as well.

Flaming axes/swords/spears sounds awesome, but what would the exact rules for it be?
Koumei wrote: -I'd return them to T 4 (with S 4 T 5 Heroines) for resiliency, meaning they take shooting attacks like Space Marines, but are still (for the most part) S 3 WS 3 I 3 in close combat. The 6++ and Adamantium Will won't just be army-wide, but instead goes to unit upgrades (ie Veteran Sister Superior) and certain special units (Celestians, Seraphim).
I disagree a bit for making the commander toughness/strength higher, perhaps only for the legendary characters. Adamantium will being tied to squad leaders makes them more important, and makes some senses the sororitas become more vulnerable once their big sister bites the dust.
Koumei wrote: -Instead of Acts of Faith, I kind of like the idea of doing something similar to 2Ed where you have a tally that determines an army-wide benefit. Instead of rolling on a random table (which is then adjusted on a unit-to-unit basis and potentially altered each turn), it'd be Turn Number + Modifiers. Maybe give some units "If the result is more than X, you can instead treat it as X for this unit because that's their favourite benefit".
Gain extra points whenever you melta/flame something to death? KILL IT WITH FIRE!

Koumei wrote: Abaddon the Failure is really expensive.
Abby's also pretty much the ultimate close combat character from any of the "base" books. Have a psyker buffing him, and Abby can take on the 30K primarchs!
Koumei wrote: He wears Terminator Armour, has high stats, turns Chosen into Troops choices, and is Fearless. With Eternal Warrior. He's also a Veteran of the Long War and has all four Marks of Chaos (and all the benefits), and has to be the Warlord. His sword is actually a Power Axe that strikes at normal initiative and is a Daemon Weapon, and his talon is a S x2 Lightning Claw. Because they're both Specialist Weapons, he gets the bonus attack for dual-wielding. No guns at all.
Actually, Abby's talon has a built-in combi-bolter. The ultimate shooty choppa!

The talon also makes Blood Angels Speech vampires gain Hatred against Abby.

Koumei wrote: Huron Blackheart

A Chaos Lord with Power Armour + Sigil of Corruption, a Power Axe, and a bionic limb that is S +2 AP 3 Melee, Armourbane, Shred, Specialist. Also it can be fired as a Heavy Flamer. He is a Fearless Veteran of the Long Pork, has a Combat Familiar, and is a Level 1 Psyker who has a different power available each turn, rolling 1d3 to pick between Biomancy, Pyromancy and Divination (don't drink), then rolling for which power is generated (and can't swap to the Primaris power).
Huron also automatically gains the "infiltrate 1d3 units" warlord trait, which is arguably the best kayos merines warlord trait. Also thematic since he's supposed to be a space pirate.
Koumei wrote: Kharn

Chaos Lord, impressive statline, Power Armour, Aura of Dark Glory, Grenades, Plasma Pistol (his BS is such that the only way he can miss is by having it explode in his face, but not high enough that he gets a re-roll on that). Fearless, Mark of Khorne, Furious Charge, Veteran of the Long Wang. Any melee attack that rolls a 1 to Hit automatically hits a friendly model (but not himself) if possible. He and his unit pass Deny the Witch rolls on a 2+ and he is immune to the Instant Death effect of Force Weapons. Finally his melee weapon, it's S +1 AP 2 Armourbane, and always hits on a 2+, even if it would normally hit automatically (ie even against stationary vehicles he has a chance of cutting his friends up). He turns Khorne Berserkers into Troops.
Kharn will only betray if there's any friend locked in the same combat. It was in older editions that he would boomerang-throw his axe to hit allies across the field when he rolled a 1.
Koumei wrote: Ahriman

Power Armour, Bolt Pistol, Dark Glory, Grenades, Inferno Bolts (AP 3). Fearless, Mark of Tzeench, Level 4 Psyker, Veteran of the Long Mile. Has access to Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy and Tzeench. His staff is a S +2 AP 4 Force weapon, and lets him fire up to 3 Witchfire powers in the same Shooting Phase. I assume this has been erratad. He turns Thousand Sons into Troops.
Correct on the errata bit, Ahriman can now spam the same witchfire up to 3 times per turn.

Plus he also gets the "infiltrate 1d3 dudes" trait, but he costs as much as a land raider while not being nearly as tough as Abby.
Koumei wrote: I am already bored and that's just the named characters.
So out of curiosity, how would you make the chaos named characters more interesting? :biggrin:

I can understand why you would consider dudes like Abaddon, Kharn and Lucius boring (all they really do is smash face up close, and Lucius isn't even that good at that), but Typhus is a psyker warrior who drastically changes one of your core troops, and Fabulous Bile also super buffs another of your base troops.
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Post by OgreBattle »

For "Acts of Faith" it has to answer "what do I want the Sisters of Battle to do", and then Acts of Faith should encourage them to be played in that style. For example the Blood Tithe encourages Khornate units to kill and die recklessly ('Khorne is happy with everyone's blood') so that's a good use of an armywide special rule.

Sisters are all about being faithful and martyrdoms and other things the catholic church likes to encourage in their followers, so it'd have to be some rule that encourages the sisters to charge into danger. So they'd have to be good at charging into danger and get a benefit for the act of charging into danger.

A lot of the SoB's portfolio is already split between the Black Templars (super faithful witch hating zealots) and black Salamanders ("kill it with fire"), you could look there for inspiration.
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Post by Koumei »

maglag wrote: Whole units with crossbows would be hilarious yet in-theme, since ghey knights run around with halberds and whatnot.
Well, they'd largely be added to the Special table or whatever. Like the Arcaballista (which would basically be a Psi-Shock Sniper weapon). Or for Pistols, little Hand Crossbows which are kind of shit but have Psi-Shock if you really want to do that.

I think for the missiles, Melta could be just S 6 Armourbane, and either AP 1 or "AP 3 against infantry, 1 against vehicles" so it isn't just "The super best missile ever". Admittedly, making it flat-out AP 1 and just 24-36" could be a reasonable compromise? Incendiary would be a S 4 AP 5 or 6 Blast that Ignores Cover, again at the reduced range from Frags so they're not just "Better than Space Marine ones". Or even reduce the range further but increase the area by making them Torrent Templates.

Flaming weapons is worth discussing:
-Burning Brazier was originally a CCW and a 1/game Heavy Flamer. Then it was a CCW and a 1/game Flamer. I'd probably go back to the first one but also have it constantly on fire so as a melee weapon it gets Shred or Soul Blaze (yes I know SB is kind of lame).
-Flaming Sword: S +0, AP 4 or 5, give it Shred or Soul Blaze or Fleshbane, I dunno.
-Pyre Glaive: originally I had the idea of a glaive with a bolt pistol built in, it'd basically work like an inverted Power Lance: S +0 AP 4 normally, S +1 AP 3 when charged, plus can fire it as a Bolt Pistol (and Overwatch with that BP at normal BS). But upgrade to a Flamer inside it (normal Wall of Flame), and let the "on fire" bit either boost the AP one better (to AP 3/AP 2) or give it Shred or something. Two-Handed.
-Blazing Maul: the expensive special one on the same level as Power Fists. So start with a Power Maul, then boost it in some way - I kind of like the idea of making it erupt into extra hits on a 6 to Hit (or just have every hit deliver 2 hits for that matter) as flames just blast out from the impact, that's still S 5 AP 4 as the base thing. I dunno.
Adamantium will being tied to squad leaders makes them more important, and makes some senses the sororitas become more vulnerable once their big sister bites the dust.
Yeah, that's basically the idea. And the 6++ makes them a little harder to snipe out or kill in a challenge.
Gain extra points whenever you melta/flame something to death? KILL IT WITH FIRE!
Probably more like:
Unit has a VSS, or a Heroine attached (or unit IS a Heroine): +1
Unit is within X range of Seraphim, or a tank with Holy Iconography, or unit has an Imagifer: +1
Unit has suffered casualties: +1
Unit is within X range of any ally that isn't BFFs: -1
Unit is within fairly big range of allied Psykers: -2

So it can vary between -2 (close to allied Psykers and allied non-Battle-Brothers on turn 1, no bonuses) to +9 (turn 6 with casualties, a VSS/Heroine, and an Imagifer/nearby booster). 3 would probably be the minimum point to get anything at all (so a no-upgrades squad walks in with nothing at all until turn 2 (if they take casualties) or 3.
Huron also automatically gains the "infiltrate 1d3 units" warlord trait, which is arguably the best kayos merines warlord trait. Also thematic since he's supposed to be a space pirate.
Yes, I would definitely recommend Huron as a good character choice. Typhus isn't bad at what he does by any stretch, and Fabulous Bile probably has some uses and is at least interesting, but I'd probably call Huron the ideal warlord.
So out of curiosity, how would you make the chaos named characters more interesting?
It's not that I consider them boring, I was just bored listing special characters and all of their piles of gear and artefacts and special rules. That said, the only three characters I consider boring are the ones you called out there. For Lucius, maybe I'd do the Space Wolf Trollface thing, changing his "Bouncing hits onto you" rule for a flat-out "If I save against my final Wound in CC, you just die instead of me"? Or try to find some kind of thing to embody perfection, looking at making him all about the pursuit of perfection that some aspects of Slaanesh follow instead of cenobytes, drugs and tits.

For Kharne, maybe a contagious Rage, where he passes it on to any unit he joins and any enemy unit he fights in close combat? The latter only applies if the enemy breaks away and regroups, or has Hit & Run, but still. Maybe even make it a detrimental Rage that bans shooting, as a way to cockblock enemies.

For Abaddon, I don't know. He's supposed to be supreme commander, with orbital bombardments and bringing legions in and stuff, but that basically sounds like a formation thing. You'd probably want the Chaos Decurion to have a Command formation of Abaddon + 1 unit each of 1KSons, Berserkers, Noise, Plague, Chosen, Terminators.
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Post by maglag »

You know, it's not bad to make a straight out better weapon than speech merines if the one wielding it has some other disadvantage.

The classic example is Tau. Pulse rifles are superior to bolters in every aspect. But the Tau Warrior has only BS 3, sucks at close combat and knows fear, so nobody complains.

Or heck, Necrons immortal troops get their uber S5/AP4 gauss weapons while having S/T 4, 3+ armor and being able to get back up from the dead. But they cost quite a bit and know fear and have I2.

So I don't think a S8 AP1 missile with armorbane would be seen as OP as long as it's not too cheap and the one shooting it has BS3 and can actually be pinned/forced to run away.

As for Kayos, a simple Abby "fix" would be just making Chosen actually worth it. But as it is right now that unit is kinda shit even if you can take them as troops. Buffing chosen would have the extra benefit of making Abby more interesting of a choice.
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Post by Koumei »

Yeah, making Chosen better is probably a good move. Maybe take a page from the older Dex where Chosen get to choose 1-2 Veteran Skills (in addition to having slightly better wargear options), letting you build them for a specific purpose?
maglag wrote:You know, it's not bad to make a straight out better weapon than speech merines if the one wielding it has some other disadvantage.

...
So I don't think a S8 AP1 missile with armorbane would be seen as OP as long as it's not too cheap and the one shooting it has BS3 and can actually be pinned/forced to run away.
Well BS 3 isn't in, but the Sisters don't do well in close combat (and their main guns mean they'll end up in close combat), and they interact with the Morale rules in the normal way. They know Fear. So I mean, if their special Missile Launchers cost, say, +25 points (as opposed to the +15 that Spaz Morons pay), then you're either making a pricey addition to a normal squad, where the rest of the models have Bolters and thus don't have the range (and in the case of Melta Missiles, can't even scratch the target) so are largely wasted when the Launcher is shining, and where they can easily get bogged down in combat (and thus the Launcher becomes useless). Or you spend 100 points + models to put four of them in a Retributor squad, and at that point you really are paying for your superior missiles.

So that's a thought.

As for what Faith should do, what you want them to be doing is taking casualties here and there but spreading them out, not having units chomped up with sacrifices (you'd be thinking of Chaos, Tyranids and Imperial Guard for "wanting to do that"). They want to form heavy gunlines, make a gradual advance, tarpit enemies in close combat without (for most units) actually doing much damage in return, and with just a few units running up and smashing into things. Also you want them to bubble around their leadership and faith-inspiring things so you typically have multiple units next to each other rather than Eldar-style individual units scattered across the entire map.

---

Non-Character HQ Choices of Chaos
Chaos Lord
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Relatively cheap bare-bones. Good stats, Power Armour, Fearless, BP + CCW, Grenades. Can take a Mark, Veterans of the Longcat, and various Wargear options. Can be a Terminator. If he's Khorne-marked, Berserkers become Troops. If he's Nurgle-marked, Plague Marines become Troops. If he's Slaanesh-marked, Noise Marines become Troops.

Chaos Sorcerer
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Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy and potentially a specific Chaos God. Power Armour, Grenades, BP, Force Weapon, Level 1 Psyker, Not Fearless. Can go to Level 2 or 3, can take most options, Marks of anyone who isn't called Khorne, and Terminator Armour. If he's Tzeench-marked, 1KSons become Troops.

Daemon Princes of the Universe
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Monstrous Creatures, unless they have Wings in which case they're Flying Monstrous Creatures. This guy costs 145 points with no extras, and it gets more expensive as you add Marks of Chaos, Chaos Rewards, Artefacts, up to Level 3 Psyker (not Khorne), Wings or Power Armour. Has 1 CCW, and the Daemon and Fearless rules, and Veteran of Longcat.

Warpsmith
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WHAT A FUNNY JOKE. Basically Chaos Techmarines. Fleshmetal, BP, Power Axe, Grenades, and Mechatendrils (+2 Attacks, and a Melta and Flamer). Master of Mechanisms (repair vehicles or curse enemy vehicles so all the guns Get Hot) and Shatter Defences (1 bit of terrain reduces its Cover bonus by 1). Can take various wargear options but not all of them, can take a Mark of Chaos, can be a Veteran of Longcat. Note: without extras, he has 5 Power Axe attacks, 6 on the Charge. That's one more than a Chaos Lord (who also has to buy his Power Axe separately). This model is a pretty good choice in general, for shooting and close combat and support, just as-is without buying extras. At 110 points, you probably don't want to give him extras, too.

Dark Apostle
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Chaos Chaplain. Power Armour, BP, Power Maul, Grenades, Sigil of Corruption. So 3+/4++. Beseech the Dark Gods (he and his unit can re-roll Boons), Demagogue (shares his Leadership out to a bubble), Zealot. Can take some options, Veteran of Longcat, and a Mark.
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Post by maglag »

You missed a drink there, Koumei: Dark Apostles are already LD10 and have Hatred against everything due to Zealot, so Veteran of the Longcat is a completely useless upgrade!

Bolter troops around the single model with the rawket launcher are never wasted, they're known as "ablative armor".

There's also the classic "fire rawket launcher first, blow up rhino land raider, fire bolters at the cowards that were hiding inside."
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Post by maglag »

Sorry double post.
Last edited by maglag on Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Koumei
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Post by Koumei »

The joke's on you, I was already drinking the whole way through it!

As for Bolter + Missile Launcher, it's all very well and good to have ablative armour there, but when nine models are sitting around diddling themselves while the one heavy weapon blows a tank up, then the breakdown is this: the unit is doing something. That heavy weapon is being put to good use. Those nine bolters are wasting time and space at this moment.

Also the same unit can't actually split their fire in such a way as to shoot a tank and also the people inside it. You need two separate units for that.
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CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

So two questions about Warhammer 40k in general.

1) What the hell is with all the swords and crap? Why are people who can fly around in spaceships and hovertanks trying to stab each other with pointy sticks?

2) How good is the gene manipulation? I know the Space Marines are genetically engineered, but is there some reason some dudes in a lab haven't made a fuckoff plague to kill all the Tyranids or something?
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Maxus
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Post by Maxus »

CapnTthePirateG wrote:So two questions about Warhammer 40k in general.

1) What the hell is with all the swords and crap? Why are people who can fly around in spaceships and hovertanks trying to stab each other with pointy sticks?

2) How good is the gene manipulation? I know the Space Marines are genetically engineered, but is there some reason some dudes in a lab haven't made a fuckoff plague to kill all the Tyranids or something?
Warning: TL;DR post in spoiler. Warhammer in-universe explanations forthcoming
1) In-universe? Materials in Warhammer are nuts. They have stuff like adamantium (adamantine, basically) and your normal Space Marine wears ceramite power-armor impervious to small-arms fire that wouldn't put a noticeable dent in a vehicle. The game's standard gun, the Bolter, is basically a small gyrojet grenade designed to penetrate and THEN blow up inside something. Basically, melee weapons can cause more damage--Chainswords are seriously lightweight one-handed chainsaws with adamantium teeth and can damage most things, and power weapons are basically high-frequency weapons. They'll go through even adamantium by vibrating through/dissolving the matter itself.

Out-of-universe? It looks cool and Warhammer 40k was originally developed out of a medieval wargame.

2) Gene manipulation is THERE, but not really understood. Pretty much all 40k tech is based on tradition and ritual--they seriously have Tech-priests who worship technology and perform the holy maintenance rituals to keep stuff working.

The Space Marines are a special case--they aren't exactly genetically engineered, they're genetically augmented--each Space Marine is the result of taking a suitable candidate--a boy not far off of puberty who shows genetic capability--and putting them through a decade-long process of surgeries to implant extra organs that do stuff like stimulate extra growth, complete with specialized diet and training, to make them develop...well, your average space marine has three lungs and two hearts, he's seven feet tall, his ribs have been fused into solid slabs, his bone have a really high iron content, and he has venom glands in his mouth that means he can voluntarily produce an acid spit potent enough to corrode most metals--so if you took could prisoner he could lick his way out of his cell. Or burn your eyes out by spitting in your face.

The Space Marines, and their suite of genetic enhancement, were personally designed by the Emperor, more than ten thousand years ago, and he knew stuff about science that went above what the Imperium is capable of.

Genetically engineering a plague is possible, sure, if you had special permission to not be declared a heretic for daring to invent something new (a big sticking point with the tech-priests. Innovation is heresy. They spend a great deal of effort trying to locate old blueprints and designs, if it's old, it's safe), but in that case it wouldn't work on the tyranids because there's multiple tyranid fleets who are in different parts of the galaxy and don't have contact with each other except through the hivemind, and the tyranid genetic code is constantly being updated with useful tidbits from the planets they overrum, and the Norn Queens--pretty much the ones who do the designing and call the shots--tinker with the DNA all the time anyway. They would quickly figure out--or remember--a DNA sequence that'd be proof against the plague. If they really admire your genetic engineering work, they'd figure out something similar and use it against you, too.

Lastly, plague bombs are a bad idea because they supercharge Papa Nurgle.

If you really want a setting rundown, I can supply one. I've had to give it several times since I took an interest in Warhammer, so I've gotten somewhat better at condensing the Big-As-Fuck stuff down to the highpoints of Warp/Chaos, the Emperor, Technology, and the Imperium.
Last edited by Maxus on Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:03 am, edited 4 times in total.
He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

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Koumei
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Post by Koumei »

"Shut up and keep drinking" is basically the answer to all questions regarding 40k.

TROOPS:
By default there are only two choices, although HQ choices can unlock others.

Chaos Space Marines
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5-20 Chaos Marines, one of which is an Aspiring Champion. Power Armour, Grenades, Bolter, Bolt Pistol (Champion). Anyone can take an extra CCW for a cost or swap their Bolter for one for free. One can swap his BP for a Plasma Pistol or swap his Bolter for a Flamer, Melta or Plasma Gun. For 10+ models a second one can swap his Bolter for a Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Melta, Autocannon, Missile Launcher, Plasma Gun, or Lascannon. The Champion can take the usual upgrades, a Gift of Mutation, and Melta Bombs. The unit can take a Mark, and one model can take an Icon. They may be Veterans of the Longitude, and can take a Rhino.

Lots of options, so you could tailor them to your needs, but the options get expensive pretty quickly.

Cultists
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10-35 crappy guys with a 6+ Armour Save and Pistol + CCW. No Grenades. They're designed as tarpits (if you add something to make them Fearless) or general walls of chaff. Anyone can swap his pistol for a Shotgun, but it costs you, and 1/10 can swap for a Flamer or Heavy Stubber. I guess three Flamers would be fun for roasting people who charge you? They can take a Mark.

That's it for Troops.
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