After the Masquarade

[hyzmarca]

I hold Bill Clinton in utter contempt, and even I recognize that he neither lied nor - in the specific context of the hearing - was deceptive under oath. The prosecutor in that case established a very clear, unambiguous, and well-defined meaning of "sexual intercourse" that was practically limited to hetero bits combined.

Granted, he totally lied in the media, since by general standards of sexual activity he totally did have sex.

To return to the topic:

Even if vampires only seized power in the modern world - so that all the folklore and stories associated with vampires are correct - they still would never break the masquerade if they had something to lose by doing so.

If the highest-ranked active vampires agreed that there was no longer a need to hide, then they'd have to believe that either they could ignore their weaknesses or had a specific advantage that made those weaknesses irrelevant.

If vamps started coming out, then something very, very bad would be going on, and humanity would have a real problem.

That presumes that vampires are at all united. If the highest ranked active vampires are all trying to kill each other, and the lowest ranked active vampires are all trying to kill them, too, that's different.

The newbies who grew up watching Spongebob might not agree with the Masquerade on principle.

You might have a situation where breaking the masquarade is the vampire equivalent of the nuclear option, but someone does it because the person who does it first has an advantage against all the other vamps when the stakes start flying.

[kzt]

The Masquerade succeeds or fails based on whether vampires are treated as real by people who have actual power. Not by how many thousands or millions of people know or think they know that they exist.

-Username17

I'm reminded of the line from the grandfather in Lost Boys at the end of the movie: "One thing about living in Santa Carla I never could stomach; all the damn vampires."

[Occluded Sun]

I think the key problem with V:tM's masquerade is that there are too many vampires. It makes sense for vampires to hide if there are very few of them - and is feasible, too. But as the number of bloodsuckers increases the number of assaults and deaths they'll create becomes harder and harder to conceal, and accidental exposure becomes increasingly likely.

Instead of a few dozen vampires in a major city, there should be less than ten.

[Stahlseele]

Imagine if, for some reason *cough*hornyvampiresire*cough* in a small country like andorra or something suddenly several dozends to hundreds of vampires appear . . not long and you will have a country(though verry small laddie!) full of vampires or at least empty of non vampires. Because either they all get turned, or they all get sucked dry.

[name_here]

There's a reason vampires don't generally go for turning everyone they catch like zombies do. No matter what the exact mechanics are, there is some vampire-to-human ratio at which there isn't enough human blood to go around. As long as your vampires at least prefer drinking human blood, even if they rule openly they're going to want to keep their numbers below a certain threshold. This may be a formalized system where vampires are required to file a request for permission to turn someone, or in a vampirecracy a privilege mortals can earn, or it could just be that vampires in general have an understanding that they don't go nuts with turning people.

[Occluded Sun]

There's also the point that vampires are weakly immortal. Turn an idiot, and unless someone takes him out you'll be dealing with him for decades or centuries. And if an idiot is likely to get you exposed... you might not be willing to take the risk of letting a normal human do the deed.

In some ways, vampirism would be like a non-prosetelyzing religion or an exclusive social club - becoming a member grants perks, but membership is limited for precisely that reason, and even proposed new members reflect upon their sponsors.

I vaguely recall reading that at least one English gentleman's club of the 1890s had a rule that if a prospective member were rejected, his sponsor would also have his membership be cancelled. I think that's a plausible model for vampires - either the existing community is very pleased with your selection long before he's actually made a vampire, or you don't dare attempt it.

[OgreBattle]

Which countries are going to be most accepting of vampires, which ones are going to have the most hate crimes against them.

[Prak]

I feel like Mexico is going to be pretty accepting of vampires, for pretty much the exact shit that AS talks about, and the fact that Mexico has a recognized "Grand Warlock" who makes predictions.

[FatR]

The problem with ending the Masquerade in Vampire: The Masquerade is that by some of the fluff the Masquerade is supposed to protect vampires from mortals. By mechanics it is there to protect mortals from vampires. The Kindred can effectively take on the humanity and win. Several dozens of monsters who are effectively immune to gunfire and small exposives, have offensive powers that can make murdering of mortals vastly more efficient, can make people into loving super-tough slaves, and are too geographically distributed to be killed with nukes or other mega-explosives without totally wrecking the world's infrastructure would be a civilization-ending threat. There are several hundreds of vampires in that range. Given their typically paranoid and vicious mindset, they will immediately lash out with all their might when revealed to the world. And without other supernaturals stepping forward to combat vampires, humanity will be very swiftly and clearly shown who is the true top of the food chain.

[Mechalich]

Precisely who wins is an all out war between humanity and the kindred were such a scenario to unfold in VtM is slightly more debatable than that. The stats for actual military-grade weapons in WoD (found in the Technomancer's Toybox appendix) are certifiably nuts and there is pretty much nothing an Abrams tank cannot wreck or that naplam will not reduce to a pile of goo (heck ordinary grenades, with their 12 dice of lethal damage in an area effect attack that can't really be dodged are bad enough).

The war comes down almost entirely to the effective deployment of various mind control powers versus the hordes of people with you-die-now military hardware. There are more Abrams tanks in the US than there are Vampires by a factor of 2 to 1. If the mass of the human population can mobilize effectively to identify and combat vampires then the kindred are hosed (and good luck trying to dominate a guy in an apache sending a hellfire missile at you thermally imaged behind from two thousand yards). If the kindred can prevent that from happening and sufficiently destabilize human society on a global scale then yes, they can win a massive guerrilla war of attrition by systematically destroying any small groups that manage to cohere.

Of course, by RAW the Kindred have precisely zero influence over the population and military force of half the world. China and India have something like 15,000 Main Battle Tanks between them. If nothing else, the Masquerade is a very important tool to protect the Kindred from the might of the PLA.

[Username17]

RAW discussions of White Wolf are largely meaningless because Fortitude doesn't really do anything in the rules. The Ventrue Antediluvian has Presence effects that allow him to control the dreams of everyone on Earth in some undefined way, but his level 10 Fortitude is probably not enough to survive one shot from an RPG. The power level reported for the over 5 disciplines are so all over the place that you have to ignore the mechanics and assume that the MC is going to mind caulk something together.

Once you've mind caulked the powers to do something that makes sense to you, it would seem weird if the power level you chose was inconsistent with The Masquerade being a silly idea.

-Username17

[erik]

The only way vampires would have a chance I'd think is if they went all-in and started mass-producing vampires for war. It is pretty hard to justify that 1 vampire is more than a match for 100,000 humans on average. Hell, even if the vampires won, they would have a devil of a time exerting influence. It is delusional to say that they would swiftly dominate the planet. The whole pretense of the masquerade is that they very likely would lose it all if in open conflict, spiraling downward from losing their tiny society to lone survivors becoming hermits that eventually would die out.

One trope that I like to imagine for vampires is that the older ones are really conservative and have not adapted well to technological advances. Advances like cars, phones, electricity, mass produced print, etc. depending upon how old they are. Try to explain radio to a 1500 year old vampire, and they can only grok it as a kind of human magic. So they create younger vampires to help them manage things. Think of Elders as grandparents who cannot figure out their cell phone or the internet button on the computer, but they can throw cars and dominate lesser minds.

With a setup like that, it makes even more sense that the most powerful vampires would do a shitty job in a war vs. humanity since they just don't get it. The might know about some other elder who tried to do things the old way and got put down hard by a band of kids in a mystery van with assault rifles and grenades. They want to preserve their old society and stay hidden. Being exposed doesn't just have a worst case scenario of being killed, it also has a shitty scenario of having to join human society which is as bizarre and alien to elders as anything they could have imagined. They go to sleep for 20 years and wake up to fucking Disco. What is this shit, and why are my arms flailing to the music? Human witchery!

[FatR]

"I'm immune to all physical attacks period but still can mind rape you" is not even in the realm of elder blood gods and obscure supplements. It is a corebook power (Obtenebration 5). 12 dice of a lethal damage from a grenade is a lot for a PC-level vampire, but there is a fuck ton of elders in published supplements who have soak higher than 12 before spending blood or actually checking what their 6+ Discipline levels do. As about anti-vehicle weaponry, well, it is anti-vehicle for a reason. Hitting a human-sized super-fast opponent who, accidentally, does not show up on thermal scanners most of the time is going to be problematic. Particularly as a number of them have supernatural stealth too.

Now, if humanity has the time to reorganize, study capabilities of vampires, produce and distribute a lot of weapons optimized against them, such as flamethrowers, and then take action, the Kindred likely would be ground down, barring intervention by statless walking plot device vampires or something. That's why I believe that in case of an irrepairable Masquerade breach the Kindred probably would lash out violently to crash the society before it can bring its resources to bear.

To think of it, many of street-level vamps might choose to ally with humanity in such a scenario, given that a population collapse means they will get the short end of the stick even if the Kindred win. This actually might give the humanity an edge and make the war a pretty interesting scenario.

It is pretty hard to justify that 1 vampire is more than a match for 100,000 humans on average.

Once you cannot realistically be hurt by human-portable weapons or restrained with human strength, you are a match for an NI number of humans.

Of course, given their relatively easily exploitable weaknesses, some elder vampires would be killed when they are outwitted, others shall fall to terrible luck on the dice resuling in being hit by vehicle-grade weaponry, and some are going to be taken out by area bombardments. That's why it would take several dozens of dispersed individuals to do enough damage for a societal collaplse.

[Username17]

"I'm immune to all physical attacks period but still can mind rape you" is not even in the realm of elder blood gods and obscure supplements. It is a corebook power (Obtenebration 5). 12 dice of a lethal damage from a grenade is a lot for a PC-level vampire, but there is a fuck ton of elders in published supplements who have soak higher than 12 before spending blood or actually checking what their 6+ Discipline levels do.

This is all complete bullshit. By the rules, if you use Tenebrous Form you still take damage from fire. Further, White Wolf vampires are super flammable and do not get to use their normal soak against fire. You only get to use your Fortitude dice, which are super weak. Even Fortitude 10 is only as many soak dice as a tough mortal in medium armor.

Leaving aside the horrible things that will happen to your shadow demon (note: I am not referring to the specific monster named "shadow demon" in this example) if someone throws a white phosphorous grenade near them, Vampire: the Masquerade posits that people make "dragon's breath rounds" for shotguns that do big piles of fire damage. A high lord of the Lasombra could legitimately lose a fight to "some hobos with shotguns." Their ability to fight the planet in open warfare is negligible.

-Username17

[nockermensch]

Leaving aside the horrible things that will happen to your shadow demon (note: I am not referring to the specific monster named "shadow demon" in this example)

pelican_staring_at_woman.jpg

[Stahlseele]

Way i imagine it, the actual physical fighting between vampires and humans would be limited to the offices and homes of high power politicians and military personel. After that? They will use their political and military power to do what needs to be done to win. You do not need to mindcontrol everybody either. Just some generals and then hope their underlings will simply follow orders without questioning. Or mind control somebody who can put his finger on a big red button.

[name_here]

Dragon's breath rounds are a real thing that shoot a spray of burning magnesium and are used for starting backfires when combating wildfires. I can entirely buy that they will absolutely fuck up any supernatural monsters with a vulnerability to fire.

Also, vampires would be vulnerable to daytime assaults, and if people become aware vampires have mind-control powers it's going to be very hard to control large groups by dominating their leaders.

[FatR]

This is all complete bullshit. By the rules, if you use Tenebrous Form you still take damage from fire. Further, White Wolf vampires are super flammable and do not get to use their normal soak against fire. You only get to use your Fortitude dice, which are super weak. Even Fortitude 10 is only as many soak dice as a tough mortal in medium armor.

Mortals do not soak fire either. Mortals are not going to have 10 soak dice against fire.

Leaving aside the horrible things that will happen to your shadow demon (note: I am not referring to the specific monster named "shadow demon" in this example) if someone throws a white phosphorous grenade near them, Vampire: the Masquerade posits that people make "dragon's breath rounds" for shotguns that do big piles of fire damage. A high lord of the Lasombra could legitimately lose a fight to "some hobos with shotguns." Their ability to fight the planet in open warfare is negligible.

(1)Obtenebrate 5 is not a high lord of the Lasobra, but an accomplished street level vamp. As about "high lords", high-level Disciplines can make Tenebrous Form outright fireproof through combo Disciplines bullshit, or, with much less hassle, provide a version of it that halves damage from fire and sunlight, or give an ability to halve all damage again for relatively brief periods of time... There are, IIRC, two separate Necromantic rituals that make you treat damage from fire as lethal. In short, your elite team of vampire hunters, loaded with equipment that is not going to be anywhere near common at the outbreak of the vampire war, still might find itself largely or even completely stumped.

But even if the team defeats this particular trick, and no doubt on some elders a shower of white phosphorous grenades will work, there also are elders with high Obfuscate who cannot be detected by mortals until they start massacring everyone in the room (who in fact would benefit a good deal from had grenades being great in WW rules). Elders with high mental Disciplines who can mindfuck whole crowds at once and crank out extra numbers of mind-slaves, beyond the normal properties of vampire blood. Elders who notice that heavy armor actually gives a decent pile of soak dice in combination with Fortitude, and does not interfere with said mindfuck at all. And so on. There are many tricks to counter, and at the start humans do not know what these tricks are and, importantly, what their limits are.

(2)A conquistador could legitimately lose a fight to some Aztec peasants with sticks. Their ability to fight the country in open warfare is negligible.

[Chamomile]

Mortals do not soak fire either. Mortals are not going to have 10 soak dice against fire.

100,000 mortals can soak rather a lot of fire.

(2)A conquistador could legitimately lose a fight to some Aztec peasants with sticks. Their ability to fight the country in open warfare is negligible.

So you're suggesting that, what, the vampires will unleash their bioweapons on humanity?

[FatR]

100,000 mortals can soak rather a lot of fire.

Their ability to soak fire greatly increases when they become ghouls, at least if we're using fire in the figurative sense. The side they're would be willing to soak fire for changes, though.

So you're suggesting that, what, the vampires will unleash their bioweapons on humanity?

Smallpox had nothing to do with conquistadors' ability to repeatedly fuck up vastly numerically superior forces.

But of course raiding a high-security bioweapon lab and distributing its contents among the population is also well within the ability of even relatively weak vampires. Security designated to stop mortals simply is not going to be remotely reliable against people who can tank bullets, make themselves unnoticeable and Dominate even the most trustworthy personnel into giving them passwords.

[virgil]

So vampires will win by turning their coteries into terrorist cells and performing guerrilla warfare? That doesn't sound like the behavior of a conquering force.

[Username17]

There are, IIRC, two separate Necromantic rituals that make you treat damage from fire as lethal. In short, your elite team of vampire hunters, loaded with equipment that is not going to be anywhere near common at the outbreak of the vampire war, still might find itself largely or even completely stumped.

That wouldn't stump anyone. Taking lethal instead of agg damage just increases the number of rounds you can take from 1-2 up to 3-4. Remember, the army of North Korea outnumbers the entire vampire conspiracy Elders to Neonates by more than 100:1. If the vampires are "only" fifty times more resilient than a normal soldier, they get their ass kicked. Hard.

But even if the team defeats this particular trick

You seem to have your burden on backwards. For your uprising to be anything other than completely retarded, you need to shoot down all the human tricks. Like UV flashlights and weaponized faith. You need to come up with some sort of plan for fighting enemies who have fuel air bombs and are willing to sacrifice millions on the altar of nuclear weapons to combat super vampires identified as existential threats. So far you haven't been able to make an elder build that can win a shootout with ten hillbilly militia members using shotguns.

Here, I'll do it for you: you make an Elder with a lot of Celerity and he fucking kills all ten before they can act. Then, oh noes!, the humans respond with like twenty yokels with shotguns and Godric goes down after throat slitting like half of them.

Vampires might be able to win a public relations war, where some high Presence Setite announces that she is chosen by the divine to be president for life and win enough elections to make that happen. But the combat numbers in White Wolf games are so flat that by the rules the vampires cannot win a military confrontation.

To win a military confrontation, you have to fight the combined militaries of the United States, Russia, China, India, North Korea, and France at the same time. You haven't been able to come up with a plan that beats Y'all Qaeda.

-Username17

[Stahlseele]

And after an all out war, chances are good the vampires will simply start to starve, even if they somehow managed to win . .

[name_here]

That is what a Dragon's Breath shotgun round looks like. It's not even a very good incendiary as such things go. They are seriously for sale at thirty bucks per box of five. Humanity's capacity to set shit on fire is not to be underestimated. And you can't really say a physical powerhouse is a major obstacle in open warfare unless it can eat a drone strike.

Now, mind control can go places. But unless they can seriously mind control a majority of soldiers, because once mind control is known to be a thing people are highly likely to just ignore any orders that seem like something a mind-controlled puppet would say, you still need a plan for "your house has exploded at high noon on a clear day and people are coating the rubble in burning gasoline"

[Occluded Sun]

And then there are the alliums. A world-wide effort to get people to consume garlic so as to make their blood toxic to vampires would be quite effective.