Psionics Handbook, Who the fuck edited this thing?

[Kaelik]

So apparently all Psions are at will casters who manifest in one standard action with no XP costs or power point costs:

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures).

PLAs have all the same text about casting times, XP costs, that SLAs have. They also explicitly cost no power points.

Who the fuck was this dumb?

[spongeknight]

What are you, retarded? That section is clearly referring to the paragraph just preceding it where it calls out specific monsters as psionic creatures that can use psi-like abilities without having manifester levels. Sure, you CAN take out both the paragraph before and this line after: "Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name" in order to push a bullshit interpretation, but if you do that I'd like to introduce you to my character who died but still gets actions because the "dead" condition doesn't state it removes the ability to take actions.

[Kaelik]

What are you, retarded? That section is clearly referring to the paragraph just preceding it where it calls out specific monsters as psionic creatures that can use psi-like abilities without having manifester levels. Sure, you CAN take out both the paragraph before and this line after: "Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name" in order to push a bullshit interpretation, but if you do that I'd like to introduce you to my character who died but still gets actions because the "dead" condition doesn't state it removes the ability to take actions.

You are an idiot 8 ways from Sunday.

Here's that whole fucking section:

Mind flayers, githyanki, yuan-ti, and other psionic creatures can create psionic effects without having levels in a psionic class (although they can take a psionic class to further enhance their abilities); such creatures have the psionic subtype. Characters using dorjes, cognizance crystals, and other psionic items can also create psionic effects. In addition to existing spell-like and supernatural abilities, this book introduces psi-like abilities. (Psionic creatures may also have extraordinary and natural abilities, which are described in the Player’s Handbook and the Monster Manual.)

Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally. Armor never affects a psi-like ability’s use. A psi-like ability has a manifesting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability description. In all other ways, a psi-like ability functions just like a power. However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost.

Psi-like abilities are subject to power resistance and to
being dispelled by dispel psionics. They do not function in
areas where psionics is suppressed or negated (such as a null
psionics field).

Supernatural Abilities: Some creatures have psionic abilities that are considered supernatural. Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities. These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as powers can be, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity (except as noted in their descriptions). Supernatural abilities are not subject to power resistance and cannot be
negated or dispelled; however, they do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed, such as a null psionics field.

So let's count the ways you are wrong:

1) The Preamble paragraph that you rely on as a limiter is clearly just an explanation of the fact that other ways besides powers exist, it's not in any way a limit on the following sections.

2) The actual Psi-Like Ability entry specifically compares and contrasts characters with psionic classes versus creatures without psionic classes and specifically says that both are using Psi-Like abilities. Why the Fuck would they make an explicit point of differentiating the manifestation of psionic powers by a [character with a psionic class]" from creatures who don't have psionic classes if they weren't talking about Human fucking Psions?

3) Let's say, hypothetically, that there was some magical limitation on what it said that limited it to "psionic characters" that are somehow not Psions, or "psionic creatures" or "creatures with the psionic subtype" Now first off, obviously, psionic characters is supposed to include something besides psionic creatures, because that's obviously the entire point of including that phrase in the sentence, but let's pretend that preamble somehow overrides the actual text of the ability.

Well first, we know that "psionic creature" and "having the psionic subtype" are equivalent, since it specifically says that in the PLA description.

But hey, let's look at the actual definition of Psionic Creature:

Any creature with psionic powers has the psionic subtype. A psionic creature can be born with the subtype or can gain the subtype during its life.

A creature meeting any one of the following criteria has the psionic subtype:
• Creatures with a power point reserve, including characters who have levels in a character class that grants them a power point reserve or Creatures who have the Wild Talent feat.
• Creatures with psi-like abilities, including characters who have racial psi-like abilities.
• Creatures that have spell-like abilities described as “psionics,” including the aboleth, mind fl ayer, yuan-ti, and monsters from sources other than the Monster Manual.

So look, it totally includes Human Psions.

Look fuckface, I can't believe I have to explain this to someone in fucking 2016, but yes, I know they didn't intend for Human Psions to have at will casting that ignores XP costs and manifesting times. That's why I said "Who the fuck edited this shit?" Because implicit in that comment is the idea that a competent editor would have fucking noticed that the actual rules they wrote turn all Psionic powers into Psi-Like Abilities, and thus fixed the goddam problem.

What do you think "Whenever a Fucking Character with a Psionic Fucking Class Manifests a Psionic Fucking Power, that's a Psi Like Ability!" actually means for the rules?

[Koumei]

Can you even call it just a typo at this point? Because that isn't someone accidentally typing Plane Shit instead of Plane Shift, that's someone typing out a sentence and obviously fucking the whole thing up (then someone else allegedly reading it and not noticing).

Fire Resistance 1 providing Immunity to Lava is a cute thing that might crop up all of one time ever across all of time, but that's what I'd consider a basic typing error. This seems more of a brain error.

[Kaelik]

Can you even call it just a typo at this point? Because that isn't someone accidentally typing Plane Shit instead of Plane Shift, that's someone typing out a sentence and obviously fucking the whole thing up (then someone else allegedly reading it and not noticing).

Fire Resistance 1 providing Immunity to Lava is a cute thing that might crop up all of one time ever across all of time, but that's what I'd consider a basic typing error. This seems more of a brain error.

Yeah, I don't think it's a typing error, you can clearly see from the first part of the sentence that one guy wanted all powers to be psi like abilities, because he specifically calls out Psions and the Hidden Talent feat as granting PsiLikeAbilities.

But that same asshole, despite apparently writing the rest of the section (right? People don't trade off after a sentence right?) didn't realize that Psi Like abilities cost no fucking power points.

[spongeknight]

Mind flayers, githyanki, yuan-ti, and other psionic creatures can create psionic effects without having levels in a psionic class (although they can take a psionic class to further enhance their abilities); such creatures have the psionic subtype. Characters using dorjes, cognizance crystals, and other psionic items can also create psionic effects. In addition to existing spell-like and supernatural abilities, this book introduces psi-like abilities. (Psionic creatures may also have extraordinary and natural abilities, which are described in the Player’s Handbook and the Monster Manual.)

Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally. Armor never affects a psi-like ability’s use. A psi-like ability has a manifesting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability description. In all other ways, a psi-like ability functions just like a power. However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost.

Psi-like abilities are subject to power resistance and to
being dispelled by dispel psionics. They do not function in
areas where psionics is suppressed or negated (such as a null
psionics field).

Supernatural Abilities: Some creatures have psionic abilities that are considered supernatural. Psionic feats are also supernatural abilities. These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as powers can be, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity (except as noted in their descriptions). Supernatural abilities are not subject to power resistance and cannot be
negated or dispelled; however, they do not function in areas where psionics is suppressed, such as a null psionics field.

So look, it totally includes Human Psions.

You are being willfully ignorant and ignoring text. How the fuck is everyone supposed to be a psi-like ability user when it calls out over and over that psi-like abilities AND ALSO REGULAR POWERS exist and are manifested by people? Yes, if you try hard you can interpret the line "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability..." to include all classed manifesters, but fucking obviously when it talks about people manifesting powers normally in parenthesis after explaining psi-like ability rules, it's talking about them. I bolded the parts you are completely ignoring.

I mean, the editing here isn't great, but it's obvious to anyone who isn't deliberately trying to shit on the rules that they are not trying to include manifesting from classes in a section that starts out by talking about naturally psionic monsters and goes on to explain psi-like abilities.

[Kaelik]

You are being willfully ignorant and ignoring text. How the fuck is everyone supposed to be a psi-like ability user when it calls out over and over that psi-like abilities AND ALSO REGULAR POWERS exist and are manifested by people? Yes, if you try hard you can interpret the line "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability..." to include all classed manifesters, but fucking obviously when it talks about people manifesting powers normally in parenthesis after explaining psi-like ability rules, it's talking about them. I bolded the parts you are completely ignoring.

I mean, the editing here isn't great, but it's obvious to anyone who isn't deliberately trying to shit on the rules that they are not trying to include manifesting from classes in a section that starts out by talking about naturally psionic monsters and goes on to explain psi-like abilities.

Yeah no, you are still full of shit. You are arguing that they couldn't have intended the thing they wrote, but who fucking cares, I already said that at least the parts about fucking power point costs are clearly not intended.

But seriously, what the fucking fuck do you think "manifestation of powers by a psionic character [having levels in a psionic class]" means if not people with levels in Psion?

Yes, they obviously wrote things that assumed not all powers would be psi-like abilities in the same general area that they wrote the rules that make all powers manifested into Psi-Like Abilities. Obviously they did that, that's part of the reason I specifically said that whomever was writing that is dumb as shit.

But rules that assume powers exist that are not psi-like abilities are not the same as rules that state that powers aren't psi-like abilities, and definitely don't contradict the rules that powers are in fact psi-like abilities.

[tussock]

I know what it's meant to say, which bit makes it not say that?

Obviously you have to be a Psionic Character or Psionic Monster to get Psi-Like Abilities (Ps), that's the bit which is added up front relative to the section on Spell-Like Abilities (Sp).

Psi-Like Abilities are almost always the manifestation of a Power, just not using PP and all that PC-level tracking bullshit. As Spell-Like Abilities are almost always the casting of a spell, just not using slots and spells known and all that PC-level tracking bullshit.

I know that having a Psionic class mean you're a psionic character who also manifests powers, but that's by the rules for your class and how it manifests powers (which might be like a Psion or like an Ardent or whatever the fuck else your class says). Even if this is the general rule, which it may well be, it doesn't override the specific ones for your class features which say you pay XP costs and whatever.

So using a Dorje uses the rules for Dorjes, with charges, creating a (Ps) manifestation which ignores some of the normal power rules.
And using a class feature uses the rules for your class, with PPs and powers known, creating a regular manifestation and using the rules it says in your class and in the powers.

Because we couldn't just have fucking Psionic wands in case someone wanted magic and psi to not mix, which no one ever wanted in the entire history of everything. So we got Psi-Like Dorjes, and you have to say somehow that you're psionically manifesting stuff so that gives you (Ps) outputs.

[Korwin]

What I remember of Psi-Like abilities sounded like an copy paste from spell like abilities...
How different are they?

[ishy]

If you think that is bad, look at page 91 and page 92, you'll see one power described twice.

[Parthenon]

When it says

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability

is this saying:

A: that when manifested, each power is considered a psi-like ability,

or

B: the ability to manifest powers is considered a psi-like ability?

I know that having a Psionic class mean you're a psionic character who also manifests powers, but that's by the rules for your class and how it manifests powers (which might be like a Psion or like an Ardent or whatever the fuck else your class says). Even if this is the general rule, which it may well be, it doesn't override the specific ones for your class features which say you pay XP costs and whatever.

According to the SRD at least, psionic classes do not get an ability to manifest powers through their class. While the Wizard gets "Spellcasting", the Psion does not gain an ability to manifest powers. There are no class specific rules for manifesting powers.

[Ice9]

The XPH is only as sloppy as the majority of the books are, and not even the worst offender there. But since it's describing a new subsystem, there's no other source to clarify/override it, and so you can get stuff like this.

This (all powers are free and take a standard action) isn't one I've ever seen show up in play, and it would be pretty easy to shut down on the grounds of being bullshit. But technically, yes, there's some weird RAW in terms of how psionics are defined and how psionics/magic transparency is defined.