Fortresses and Fiends

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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

deaddmwalking wrote:Is that type of system better or worse than race as class?
That system is worse if you want more dynamic character options and character customization at all and carries all the alleged terrible flaws of race classes in this thread.

If they feats are better than other feats, then for anyone who is at maximum potential with those choices, they are better than everyone else, so those are the only real feat choices at all. If they are the same as other feats, then everyone who doesn't synergize perfectly with those feats is underpowered, and Wizard vampires still suck.

But let's be clear.

If someone is going to make the claim:

Half Fiend Dwarf Casters need to be just as good casters as Dwarf Wizard. Half Fiend Dwarf Martials need to be just as good at slugging as Dwarf Monks/Fighters.

That is a claim that I reject. I obviously reject it, because I made Half Fiend a class, not a base race, so clearly I intend, as I said, for Half Fiends to be Hybrid, and they can extend that Hybrid in the direction of casting, and be like Conduits, but still not be as good casters as Sorcerers and Wizards (but get other benefits), or they can extend it in the direction of martials and be like True Fiends, in which case they are not as good slugging, but get other benefits besides (including some casting which synergizes with their slugging).

So if your starting point is that Vampire Ninjas can't be better than Vampire Sorcerers, because all prestige races must be equally as viable at all things, then I encourage you to fuck right off, because that's not a position that I'm going to ever give a shit about accommodating.
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Post by Sigil »

If you want to expand character options, or offer some subset of character options, in a way that doesn't prevent you from taking other types of options, the answer would seem to be that you would create another type of resource that players could spend when making and improving characters.

You've already broken your classes and gameplay down by tiers, 4 levels per tier, so say for example you give everyone the option to pick one 'job' or 'subclass' or 'package' or whatever at the start of each tier, and each one is tied specifically to a tier (so 'gladiator' and 'archivist' are always survival tier packages), but some of them have better versions that can be picked at later tiers. At first level a player can just pick "Half Fiend [Survival Tier]" as the package they want and it gives them a set of abilities, then when they reach Adventurer Tier they can either switch it out for the Adventurer Tier version of that package and pick something else for their Survival Tier slot, or decide that they are fiend-y enough already and choose something unrelated.

Then, for more powerful races that you want to make specifically compatible with being a player character and offer as prestige races, you give those a set of racial abilities (that occupy the race slot that D&D already has), they come with preselected packages for each tier (probably unique ones that cant be taken any other way) and you have to be starting gameplay at least at the tier of the monster to play it. The Monster Manual entry is built like a PC, but it has levels in a generic class (True Fiend, Celestial Beacon, Hulking Brute, whatever) instead of levels in a real class. When a PC decides to play one of these prestige races, they probably pick a real class, but they might not.

When a player wants to play a monster of CR Whatever that you haven't gone through the effort to turn into a prestige race, they do the opposite. They get the monster as it appears in its entry, but get to select one package per tier. You probably provide a Survival tier "Awakened" package so that players can just straight up take a wolf or a golem or whatever and play it. You might decide to offer this as an optional rule since you haven't taken the effort to even try to balance them and make them suitable to be played as PCs.

Some options will still, obviously, be better than others, but this means that no matter what a player wants to play (a base race, an advanced race, or a monster) they get to make some form of choice (other than skills and feats, obviously) to differentiate themselves even at the lowest level that a given race is available for play.

Edit:
RobbyPants wrote:One or both of the 3E DMGs show a black and white picture of stone work with iron straps affixed to the outside.
That make sense, I just didn't know since I want looking at an actual DMG. I've never actually owned one and always used the d20srd.org for my DMG needs.
Last edited by Sigil on Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

I am perfectly content with the goddam millions of options already available, so I personally don't see any reason to add an entire fucking subclass system to double the amount of work that I need to do for no particular benefit except letting people play Half-Fiend Sorcerers. Especially since they still won't play Half Fiend Wizards, or whatever classes don't synergize with that specific subclass.

This isn't a problem looking for a solution, it's someone looking for a problem.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

So yeah. All the confirmation we need that Kaelik's genius plan to lure players into his new game with exciting new options is... "fuck you if you freely want to combine race and class, it's too hard and I DON'T WANNA!"

In the end I DO think that vampire sorcerers SHOULD be equally viable to vampire ninjas and that anyone, and any game, that says otherwise is a crazy fucker that hates giving players the properly supported fundamental options they want and need.

And I mean fuck man, vampire ninjas vs vampire sorcerers fuck you only one or the other gets to be viable? THAT'S the position he decides to take and defend, the hill he wants his game to die on? THAT? Could I manufacture a strawman better than that to beat up?

Now that Kaelik has put a sufficient underline under his... position... on this I think it's nice and clear where he is going and how FUCKING BAD that decision is.

This is not how you achieve progress with your fantasy heartbreaker. This is how you go nowhere/backwards.
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Sigil »

PhoneLobster wrote:So yeah. All the confirmation we need that Kaelik's genius plan to lure players into his new game with exciting new options is... "fuck you if you freely want to combine race and class, it's too hard and I DON'T WANNA!"

In the end I DO think that vampire sorcerers SHOULD be equally viable to vampire ninjas and that anyone, and any game, that says otherwise is a crazy fucker that hates giving players the properly supported fundamental options they want and need.

And I mean fuck man, vampire ninjas vs vampire sorcerers fuck you only one or the other gets to be viable? THAT'S the position he decides to take and defend, the hill he wants his game to die on? THAT? Could I manufacture a strawman better than that to beat up?

Now that Kaelik has put a sufficient underline under his... position... on this I think it's nice and clear where he is going and how FUCKING BAD that decision is.

This is not how you achieve progress with your fantasy heartbreaker. This is how you go nowhere/backwards.
You've got the kernel of a good point, but then you say too much dumb shit and ruin it. It would be nice if all combinations of race and class were equally viable, yeah. That's a decent point, but in reality it is a shitload of work, and you don't get to fucking decide how much work someone else does on their pet project. "I don't have the time to do that" is a reasonable stance to take. Kaelik saying it isn't a problem at all is, potentially, something you could argue about, but if he says "doesn't matter, not doing it anyway" the point is moot. It's not like doing shit the way 3e does it will make it any worse than 3e, it just wont make that aspect of it any better.
Kaelik wrote:I am perfectly content with the goddam millions of options already available, so I personally don't see any reason to add an entire fucking subclass system to double the amount of work that I need to do for no particular benefit except letting people play Half-Fiend Sorcerers. Especially since they still won't play Half Fiend Wizards, or whatever classes don't synergize with that specific subclass.

This isn't a problem looking for a solution, it's someone looking for a problem.
Once again, fair enough, but on the assumption it was a problem I think a subclass system is better than the other non-solutions that were being discussed.
Last edited by Sigil on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

Sigil wrote:You've got the kernel of a good point, but then you say too much dumb shit and ruin it. It would be nice if all combinations of race and class were equally viable, yeah. That's a decent point, but in reality it is a shitload of work, and you don't get to fucking decide how much work someone else does on their pet project. "I don't have the time to do that" is a reasonable stance to take. Kaelik saying it isn't a problem at all is, potentially, something you could argue about, but if he says "doesn't matter, not doing it anyway" the point is moot. It's not like doing shit the way 3e does it will make it any worse than 3e, it just wont make that aspect of it any better.
This is pointless anyway, since I'm demonstrably not doing it the way that 3e is. Since I've already described two different ways of dealing with racial classes (one for Half Fiends and Dragons, and one for transformational Races like Vampires/Liches) and neither one of them is the way 3e did it.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Sigil wrote:you don't get to fucking decide how much work someone else does on their pet project.
Oh fuck right off with that argument. I don't get to dictate if he puts in countless hundreds of hours or if he just spends five seconds to spit on a napkin and call that a progressive and innovative new RPG.

But what I DO get to do is call some spit on some napkin a really shitty RPG that represents little to no progress.

Hell even if he DOES put in the hours I still get to call the result a pile of shit if that's what it is, and I can certainly call into question his stupidest stated goals. Like the whole "vampire ninjas/vampire sorcerers THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" highlander school of RPG design thing he has going on.
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Post by Sigil »

Kaelik wrote:This is pointless anyway, since I'm demonstrably not doing it the way that 3e is. Since I've already described two different ways of dealing with racial classes (one for Half Fiends and Dragons, and one for transformational Races like Vampires/Liches) and neither one of them is the way 3e did it.
I didn't mean literally exactly the same, I just meant that in 3e you choose a race, and it can be bad if you choose a shitty class to go with it. Or you chose something that has HD, and you just have less class levels and its shitty if you're a caster. Its the 'same' in that there are race and class combinations in both that are better than others, even if you keep one of the components the same.
Last edited by Sigil on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Sigil »

Double post because I didn't see PLs until after I made mine.
PhoneLobster wrote:
Sigil wrote:you don't get to fucking decide how much work someone else does on their pet project.
Oh fuck right off with that argument. I don't get to dictate if he puts in countless hundreds of hours or if he just spends five seconds to spit on a napkin and call that a progressive and innovative new RPG.

But what I DO get to do is call some spit on some napkin a really shitty RPG that represents little to no progress.

Hell even if he DOES put in the hours I still get to call the result a pile of shit if that's what it is, and I can certainly call into question his stupidest stated goals. Like the whole "vampire ninjas/vampire sorcerers THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!" highlander school of RPG design thing he has going on.
Nah, you fuck off, any product can always be better or more comprehensive or have some additional feature than it does, there is no perfect product. But when you actually make something, you have to decide at what point its good enough, and it's best if you have an idea of what good enough looks like before hand so you don't waste time on something. Everyone does this in every aspect of every task they ever perform whether they realize it or not.

The thread is only a week old, Kaelik has what amounts to an outline. There isn't anything you could really do to determine if the final product will be good or not yet since nothing he's posted yet is obviously a train wreck and the way you post is needlessly fucking entitled.
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Sigil wrote:The thread is only a week old, Kaelik has what amounts to an outline. There isn't anything you could really do to determine if the final product will be good or not yet since nothing he's posted yet is obviously a train wreck and the way you post is needlessly fucking entitled.
Wow. Just wow, and fuck you OK. An outline can be bad. An outline is open to be criticized. Your despicable insistence that outlines are immune to all criticism "because entitlement" makes you a slimy pretentious git pulling little more than a "this is not FOR the critics" argument.
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Post by Omegonthesane »

I've seen in previous threads the concept that your most recent class level should (in an ideal system) dominate your character concept, rather than the class you have the most levels in. This seems especially likely with the strict tier segregation, if Vampire 2 is meant to be levels 7 and 8 then presumably the fact you're a Vampire 2 is more important than the fact you're also a Warrior/Ninja/Basketweaver 4 with the hit dice you got before your vampiric powers really kicked in.

At most, if you really really really really really wanted to support people in playing fiend-people without committing to the Half Fiend class, you might have a thing in some of the classes going "This can also represent being a weirdly specialised Half Fiend who got the class abilities au naturelle rather than through normal training" without necessarily any mechanical differences (that or make it a Background that refluffs your entire first-tier class and gives you some Background scale benefit too). But that'd probably be lame.
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Post by Username17 »

Your vision of prestige classes branching at each tier from main classes and also to have such a classplosion that "your momma fucked a dragon" is a class is pretty much totally unworkable. I don't know if you've worked out the math of how many Monk prestige classes which hand out Monk Stances you're going to have to write, but it's way more than you are going to be able to write. 4th edition D&D tried that shit and made nearly fifty Paragon classes in the first book alone. And that was painfully insufficient. Since you're trying to have more base classes and also more than two tiers, just as a matter of procedural necessity you're talking about more prestige classes than you'll ever be able to finish - let alone balance.

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Post by DSMatticus »

Kaelik wrote:After 4 levels in the Survival Tier, you enter the Prestige tier, where you take levels in a prestige class. While your prestige class is somewhat determined by your base class (Warriors can be Shadow Blades, Blood Warrior, ect.) Some PrCs will have options for more than one class going into them.
Kaelik wrote:Still, in most cases, classes will be limited to ones that preserve or are compatible with their existing resources schedule. (Since Warrior’s resources schedule is FUCKING NOTHING, JUST HIT THINGS LIKE A PLEB, they have a wider source of Prestige classes than other classes to go into.)
Kaelik wrote:Prestige classes will give you Prestige abilities, but people who are Wizards and take Wizard prestige classes will get access to abilities (like EBT) that sure look a lot like they used to be Wizard spells, and operate on the Wizard resource schedule. Monks will get new stances to choose from, an honestly, that list will probably be the same regardless of what Monk Prestige Class you enter, but they will also get other class features that are different for different Prestige classes.
I think both your design and your presentation would be a lot cleaner if you stopped thinking of these as separate classes and instead as something more like archetypes or subclasses. It makes the important parts of your design clearer (resource schedule compatibility, power list continuity) and would, in the long run, save you a fuckton of copypaste work that you have no business doing. So instead of writing a 4-level long monk base class and writing six different 4-level monk prestige classes which all provide access to the same stance list (at the same intervals, using the same resource schedule), just write an 8-level long monk base class and tell players to choose a subclass on the fifth level that determines what class features they get from then on. If you need to make changes to the list of available stances for a specific subclass, just make a note in that specific subclass.

You want a subclass to be available to two or more base classes? You can either copypaste it (almost certainly still less of a headache than copypasting power lists and powers known/powers per day progressions for every single fucking prestige class) OR put cross-class subclasses in their own section somewhere, with notes in the base class saying shit like "In addition to the subclasses shown here, monks qualify for ___, ____, and ____." This also means if you really want to, you can write the vampire subclass twice - once in the ninja entry and once in the sorcerer entry, and in each case the vampire subclass can give different abilities. Specifically, abilities that its parent class actually cares about, which would make the "why can't I be a vampire ____" crowd happy.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tussock »

If you can multiclass, you can monster-as-class, and just multiclass with it.

Traditionally the problem is that multiclassers are either better or worse than just sticking with one class, because of course they will be. To some extent you just want to make them a little tiny bit worse and then people can do that and not be completely crippled.

Obviously if you stop taking fighter levels at level 7 and start taking wizard ones instead, you need to get level 8 wizard powers not long after the single-class wizards get them. But other than that, overlaps and doesn't stack seems almost serviceable.

Until people find things that stack anyway, because minions and buffs or whatever, but that's just a matter of not hyper-specialising your classes in the first place. /handwave.
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Post by Kaelik »

@DSM, probably. The biggest incombatibility with that is Warrior, but I hate warrior anyway, so that's probably something I need to fix anyway.
tussock wrote:If you can multiclass, you can monster-as-class, and just multiclass with it.

Traditionally the problem is that multiclassers are either better or worse than just sticking with one class, because of course they will be. To some extent you just want to make them a little tiny bit worse and then people can do that and not be completely crippled.

Obviously if you stop taking fighter levels at level 7 and start taking wizard ones instead, you need to get level 8 wizard powers not long after the single-class wizards get them. But other than that, overlaps and doesn't stack seems almost serviceable.

Until people find things that stack anyway, because minions and buffs or whatever, but that's just a matter of not hyper-specialising your classes in the first place. /handwave.
Congratulations.

I didn't think anyone would manage to make a single post that was somehow more useless than the combined uselessness of all of PLs posts, but you did. It's like you went beyond failing to read and you somehow actually anti-read the thread so that you knew less about the game than nothing. Very impressive.
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Post by Lokey »

It's rules-hard. It has to be damn near perfect or it's likely to be unplayable failure. We don't have any idea what Mistborn wants to do with 3.x, but at least he probably has an easier task.

Fewer status conditions. Start with something like a combo of fear/stun/charm, disease/poison, neg energy magic (stat drain), physical obstacles (i.e. web or kd). Probably still too many, but needing a separate page that's all check boxes is ick unless you have a computer handle the headache.

Some things have to be sketched in or throw in placeholders to get somewhere before the 22nd century. Resolution mechanics, player abilities and power acquisition, oppo, whatever else, it'll all have to interact. I'd say it's flat impossible unless you drop a few things like wizard vamps and giant mechas being in the party with a normal waves weapon in you're dead range type...and hopefully that last is hyperbole, pretty sure you want at least some semblance of class balance.
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Post by Hiram McDaniels »

I like the four stats that you (Kaelik) chose. I like Perception as a saving throw rather than a skill. I've often wondered why D&D hasn't done this years ago. Can I assume that sense motive gets rolled in here as well, as both would key off of Intelligence in your game?

You said that everything (PC's, opposition, non fight-y challenges, et al) has an associated level. Does this mean that you're going to jettison the CR rules? How exactly does encounter/challenge building work?

How does experience work? Is there any real incentive to sneaking past, or bargaining with a group of trolls rather than just going Leroy Jenkins on them?

What about WBL and gear? Is treasure randomized, or is it assumed a player-facing part of character building?

You'll have attack rolls, damage rolls and soak rolls. Do you also plan to give the sword guys multiple attacks/round?

How much do you plan on overhauling spells? Are you just changing durations to fit the Kaelin Wizard and porting over the classic spell list, or is it a fundamental rewrite? Are there still going to be components, spell levels, scaling effects, etc.?

I know that you're just hammering out the basics right now, but do you have a plan for how prestige classes relate to and expand upon base classes? I'm wondering specifically about the half-fiend/half-dragon. Will they be able to prestige into one class focusing on spell casting, or one focused more on face-stabbing?
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Post by Kaelik »

Hiram McDaniels wrote:I like the four stats that you (Kaelik) chose. I like Perception as a saving throw rather than a skill. I've often wondered why D&D hasn't done this years ago. Can I assume that sense motive gets rolled in here as well, as both would key off of Intelligence in your game?
More than likely social "attacks" will fall under perception saves, same as stealth ones.
Hiram McDaniels wrote:You said that everything (PC's, opposition, non fight-y challenges, et al) has an associated level. Does this mean that you're going to jettison the CR rules? How exactly does encounter/challenge building work?
Yes and No. Obviously CR is out, but since monsters will have a level, that level will perform the function of CR in the rules. My current standard for encounter building is 4 encounters with EL equal to faction level (faction level equals the same level as four PCs who are that level) plus 1. The rules will also probably be specifying that most of the time that EL should be made up of multiple monsters. I'll actually be shooting for an even faster progression of lower level monsters to equal EL, so where in 3e 4 CR-4 monsters equals EL = party level, I'm going to be shooting for 6-8 or so. That depends on how the numbers work out, but that's one of my goals for the combat system, for PCs to actually be able to kill monsters 4 levels lower than them in groups slightly easier.
Hiram McDaniels wrote:How does experience work? Is there any real incentive to sneaking past, or bargaining with a group of trolls rather than just going Leroy Jenkins on them?
Experience won't exist as such. Levels will be granted purely on accomplishment, so if you think bargaining or sneaking will accomplish the goal with more resources preserved, then that is what you should do. (You may decide that you want to kill them for their items, but see below.)
Hiram McDaniels wrote:What about WBL and gear? Is treasure randomized, or is it assumed a player-facing part of character building?
There will be a series of "magic item bonuses" that creatures of all kinds get from having more than zero magic items. Spread out not one for one, so one item is going to grant multiple items. PCs can pick which bonuses they get "first" basically choose the ones they actually have. You have to have items to get these bonuses. However, actual items have some function, are basically randomized, and most of these items will fall into some sort of utility/parrallel option usage (IE, if it takes your standard action and replaces your attack, your ability to fireball with a sword is not a straight upgrade like a flaming sword would be.) There will be some consumable items whether they be scrolls or magic weapons that give you options better than what you can otherwise do, but are consumable, they will make up a very small part of the item sets.

Technically, once you have X (probably 3-4) magic items you will have all the magic item bonsuses your character can have. At that point, other items can be carried around in a golf sack for utility use if you want to be the guy that does that, but then of course, you have to carry that, and you might lose those. (IE panicked is a lot worse for you if you are that guy, than if you are the guy who hoards them back home.)
Hiram McDaniels wrote:You'll have attack rolls, damage rolls and soak rolls. Do you also plan to give the sword guys multiple attacks/round?
It is very likely that people will be able to get mutliple attacks per round in lots of ways, such as haste ect. I think specifically melee warriors might end up getting more than one in some circumstances, but it won't actually be based on "not moving" and will instead be tied to something a lot more like Attacks of Opportunity. Ninja's gain an extra attack on flanked enemies. Some monsters will have "multiple attacks" basically, the ones that are best represented that way because they have to be (Dragons) not just every cat gets 2 claws a rake and a bite like 3e.
Hiram McDaniels wrote:How much do you plan on overhauling spells? Are you just changing durations to fit the Kaelin Wizard and porting over the classic spell list, or is it a fundamental rewrite? Are there still going to be components, spell levels, scaling effects, etc.?
There will have to be some amount of conversion for spells, and how much depends on the list. The Kaelik Wizard actually requires the least conversion, because it themes well with the existing spell list. Sorcerers basically get a reserve effect for every spell known, but the spells they know are mostly going to be similar for attacks (different for buffs). The contemplative is going to do the same things as the Cleric, but it has the most extensive spell list rewrite as it is entirely based around per day all day buffs that can be expended to trigger either an effect, or to be a more impressive buff, so that's going to be the most extensive spell list rewrite. The Spirit Shaman will probably need to have some spells removed or rewritten off the Druid list, but will be fine for the most part.
Hiram McDaniels wrote:I know that you're just hammering out the basics right now, but do you have a plan for how prestige classes relate to and expand upon base classes? I'm wondering specifically about the half-fiend/half-dragon. Will they be able to prestige into one class focusing on spell casting, or one focused more on face-stabbing?
Yes, the Half Fiend and Half Dragon will both be able to go in a Stabby and Casty and "Neutral" direction. Although in the Caster dragon's case, it is mostly breath weapons not casting which they get their additional castering, though they will be better casters as well than a full stabby direction.

Truthfully, each class will work differently, for example, the casty dragon is going to get entirely different abilities that the other dragons don't (or at will of what others are like once per encounter or limited per day).

On the other hand, many classes, the Contemplative, Spirit Shaman, Monk, Wizard, and Sorcerer, will have a base progression, and all prestige classes will progress that while giving other abilities. So a Vampire Sorcerer is going to get some Vampire abilities, and also have the same casting as a Sorcerer that went into Cold Mage and got Cold Mage abilities in addition to his casting.
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Post by Kaelik »

EDIT: Condemned because updating two posts was redundant, see first post in thread.

EDIT 11 billionth: Changed Fortress Rules to be significantly simplified.
Last edited by Kaelik on Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:23 pm, edited 13 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
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