Review: Shadowverse (Japanese Hearthstone)

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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch »

Yeah, I'd expect that Support Cannon will only have a future if it gets a super crazy enabler OR if the collective card quality of Commanders gets so high that you're not giving up much to run a couple Cannons just as a hedge against specific matchups. Kinda like how some Nepdecks run Death's Ledger just so they can shift gears and become the beatdown against other slow decks and routinely ignore the damn things when up against aggro.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Wow. Two new cards on the Shadowverse twitter.

Emeralda, Demonic Officer (Gold)
4/5 for 7
Fanfare: Destroy an enemy follower or amulet.
Gain Storm if Vengeance is active for you.

Bandersnatch (Silver)
4/5 for 5
Rush
Enhance (7): Gain Last Words: At the start of your next turn, put a follower that costs at least 6 play points from your deck into play.

Emeralda is competing with Alucard/Soul Dominator for the 7-drop aggro vengeance occasionally runs, and I don't think it's much of a competition. She's a storm follower that can erase a ward before going face. She's amazing. She's a riskier inclusion in aggro bat, since aggro bat has no reliable way to put itself in vengeance. I think Carabosse, Imp Lancer, and Soul Dominator are still the right calls for aggro bat (in that order).

Bandersnatch is pure midrange goodness. You can play him on T5 to trade into an enemy follower as an emergency or you can play him on T7 to do the same except you get insane value out of it on T8.

Big Knuckle Bodyguard has me scratching my head. It's such a great card, but it fits so goddamn poorly in aggro vengeance - a second 4-drop you're not going to play on T4 because T4 is the turn you put yourself in vengeance with Belphegor/Soul Dealer? In an aggro deck already fairly saturated with 4-drops? Belphegor's not going anywhere, Dark General has storm, Soul Dealer is the alternative vengeance trigger. But you know where it would fit really well? A midrange vengeance deck that doesn't care about missing a chance to squeeze in face damage on T5 in order to keep board control in preparation for Bandersnatch/Serpent shenanigans later.

That said, "midrange vengeance" leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. A deck that does half its opponent's work for them and plans to go toe to toe with Eachtars and survive to do something crazy on T8 instead of madly rushing through the last bit of damage on T7 with storm followers and burn spells? Seems... sketchy. I will point out that control sneks is faster than anything you can do with Bandersnatch, and yet it really struggled to find a place competitively. They clearly want midrange/control/combo blood to be a thing again, but I remain openly skeptical of their ability to stretch the vengeance mechanic that far.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Wed Jun 14, 2017 11:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

I appreciate the increase in demonic muscly man cards
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Post by OgreBattle »

I appreciate the increase in demonic muscly man cards
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Ugh, Hero of Antiquity is NOT a commander. That means that Gawain won't discount him, so aggro and the vast majority of midrange sword are just going to use Fangblade Slayer if they want an 8-drop officer. There might be a chance a control sword deck tries to run Hero into Bahamut.....but Control Sword is a pretty bad proposition when your best healing is Unica and your best answer to Reaper, Oroborus, Mordecai, and opposing Frogs remains race harder.

But interestingly the Card Knight Tokens are Neutral not Swordcraft , so Royal Banner and Castle in the Sky don't apply but Maisy, Red Riding Hood; Kiss of the Princess, and Alice, Wonderland Explorer all care.
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Post by Username17 »

Kiss of the Princess is so bad. I get that on Turn 3 you can get some Princess on Unica action and smash in for 4 with a 4/6 pseudo ward on turn 3 and that's pretty hard to do anything about. But... the target stops being Neutral and becomes a Commander. Commander Sword doesn't give a shit about followers being Commanders, it cares about Commanders coming into play, which Princess Kiss never does. And Neutralcraft decks care about followers being Neutral, so not only can you not stack kisses, you don't get the Alice bonus the turn after kissing, which makes the longterm stat bonus more like +1/+3 for 3 mana and a card, which is awful.

Interesting that they'd reveal Emerald and Bandersnatch at the same time. Emeralda is a terrible thing to have in your deck if you intend to Bandersnatch. You are looking for followers with a a high headline cost who don't depend on Fanfares to get the job done. Soul Dominator is the obvious choice, but you can also use Zeus to great effect. It's important to note that Baphomet and Bandersnatch have different targeting requirements, so it's possible to make a deck where Baphomet and Bandersnatch will always get a specific card and those will be different cards. It's also possible to completely fuck yourself by having cards that can be grabbed by either or and aren't things you want to use that way.

Example: if you have Blood Snek in your deck, that's real good to search up with Baphomet and completely terrible to search up with Bandersnatch. If you have Soul Dealer in your deck, Baphomet will find him but Bandersnatch won't. It you have Soul Dominator in your deck, Bandersnatch will search her but Baphomet won't.

TL;DR: Blood is becoming steadily more of a tight synergy deck with extremely exacting deckbuilding constraints.

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Post by Josh_Kablack »

FrankTrollman wrote:Kiss of the Princess is so bad. I get that on Turn 3 you can get some Princess on Unica action and smash in for 4 with a 4/6 pseudo ward on turn 3 and that's pretty hard to do anything about. But... the target stops being Neutral and becomes a Commander. Commander Sword doesn't give a shit about followers being Commanders, it cares about Commanders coming into play, which Princess Kiss never does. And Neutralcraft decks care about followers being Neutral,
Kiss of the Princess is the same cost and same craft as Forge Weaponry, but gives 2 more toughness with tighter targeting restrictions.

I suspect the intent is to send your Vagabond Frog Into the Looking Glass and then Kiss it -- but that's a three card combo and frog only cares about toughness against wards.

Where it has a place is maybe replacing Keen Enchantment in a Goblin Princess / Valkyrie's Spear deck. Even with the heavy Neutralcraft push of Wonderland, I am skeptical that's going to be a better option for Sword than just standard officer/commander synegry for aggro or cheap midrange. Without more cards revealed, I can't see the commander transform mattering helping much. Ruthless Assassin, Swordwhip Maid and Snippy Gardener just aren't strong enough -- and Centaur Vanguard is likely to have already been played.
Last edited by Josh_Kablack on Wed Jun 14, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DSMatticus »

I think Bandersnatch -> Soul Dominator is a bad play. If it weren't for Emeralda, I would have called it a weird play (relative to just playing Soul Dominator straight, it trades a turn and a slightly weaker curve for value and flexibility, which isn't a bad deal in principle but is sketchy in the current meta coughEachtarcough). But Emeralda hits the table, destroys an enemy follower or amulet, and leaves you with a 4/5 that can go face on T7. Bandersnatch hits the table, deals 4 damage to an enemy follower, dies, and leaves you with a 4/6 that can go face on T8. Emeralda is much better. Those two cards weren't just weird to reveal together, they were weird to put in the same expansion at all.

Also Bandersnatch being a 4/5 is fucking awful. It's a suicide bomb with a statline which makes it harder to trade with. If you swing into a 5/5, the 5/5 lives. If you swing into a 4/4, the Bandersnatch lives. These are both terrible outcomes.

Bandersnatch is just kind of awkward all around. It's designed to stop itself from doing the thing it was designed to do. You can't really use it for scary storm followers, because Emeralda is better at that. You can't really use it for high PP neutral bullshit, because their fanfares won't proc and if you have them in your deck at all you will occasionally end up drawing them and those are incredibly weak cards to play raw in the current meta.
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Post by Username17 »

Did you forget that Soul Dominator gets bigger when things die? A free Soul Dominator plus a board wipe is really a lot of face damage. Indeed, a Bandersnatch chain where you suicide a Bandersnatch and then next turn suicide another Bandersnatch while coming in with your Soul Dominator for 6+ (and getting another Soul Dominator next turn) is pretty exciting.

Soul Dominator is the biggest storm attacker you can get off the Bandersnatch. The big question is whether the versatility and defense of throwing out Zeus is overall better.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Alucard was back in fashion alongside Soul Dominator by the end of the TotG tournie season. Soul Dominator's self-buffing isn't super reliable, and it's a big mark against the card.

In terms of moderately magical Christmas plays, back-to-back Bandersnatches is 4 rush damage on T7, 4 rush damage and 6+ storm damage on T8, and 4+ storm damage on T9. Back-to-back Emeralda's is a removal and 4 storm damage on T7, and a removal and 4 storm damage on T8. That's a turn slower and a weaker kind of follower-hate for an extra 2+X damage, where X is whatever additional followers you can make explode on T8/T9. I'll still take the double Emeralda's. Her destroy fanfare is just better and more consistent than trying to successfully trade 4/5's, and with her you're dealing the damage faster - which is important in a vengeance deck, because, you know, you're always about to die. Sure, you're occasionally going to have to let the opponent have a T8/T9 because you aren't killing them fast enough - but that's a lot different than planning to give them a T8/T9 because that's how your combo works.

Obviously if you're not building a vengeance deck then Bandersnatch into Soul Dominator is about the best you can do besides Zeus, and Zeus is a terrible thing to have in your deck unless you're ramp dragon because you might draw him and then what the fuck are you supposed to do? This meta doesn't support that shit. Pick up the pace, you old Greek fuck. Regardless, I don't think there's enough support for non-vengeance blood right now, particularly not enough to go toe to toe with shit like midrange shadow.
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Post by Username17 »

Bandersnatch is all about the Midrange deck that actively avoids going into Vengeance. You're not looking to pull things that care about Vengeance, because the things you freecast don't get their fanfares anyway.

The only Vengeance thing you could do with Bandersnatch is to just pull something real big like Bahamut or Israfil and then play Laura and have 5 mana left over to Dance of Death a target away or something. But I think you're probably better off just running Soul Dominators.

Honestly, except maybe Emeralda I don't think Vengeance Blood gets much in the cards they've shown so far. Midrange, Aggro, and Control all get some interesting things. The Blood Neutralcraft deck is garbage and isn't going anywhere. Control Blood has been pretty bad, and I don't know that they are going to get enough to stop being bad. You get two improved versions of Wardrobe Rader, allowing you to do the Wardrobe Rader thing on turn 4 and 5 without spending any Evo Points. But Midrange gets to do that too, and the meta is still going to strangle you before you can reliably cast Temptress Vampire. But Boy Who Cried Wolf in Aggro Blood is going to be awesome. Finally a powercreeped Cyclone Soldier!

The ones I'm interested in are the insane decks. Like Abomination Rune. Play Melvie and a bunch of card draw effects and you can get your Abomination online on turn 5. That's pretty good! Or Rage Dragoon, where you play a bunch of Turtles because you are playing shit that gets insane stats when evolved and then you copy those stats onto Ace Dragoon.

But to be honest, the new Dragon decks all look pretty interesting. Aina was already pretty decent in Face Dragon but now there's Hippogryph Rider so that your token spam face rush Dragon can play 3 different Storm riders. It seems workable. And the new Ramp Dragon finishers get bonus points for being completely insane.

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Post by Username17 »

OK, the thing you are supposed to Bandersnatch is Spawn of the Abyss. It's a 6/7 Ambush that does face damage when it attacks from Ambush. Bandersnatch into Spawn of the Abyss and Evolve attack to do 8 to an enemy follower and 8 damage to face. Then if you're feeling frisky you can reset with Urd and give storm with Laura and attack face for 6 damage and then 6 more damage to face. That's a 20 point OTK on turn 8.

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Post by Josh_Kablack »

Wow, yeah not sure if Spawn is this expansion's Aegis (in that it's a single crazy card the net complains about) or this expansion's Eachtar (in that it's a single crazy card that enables a meta-dominant deck) but it's definitely crazy.
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Post by nockermensch »

If you don't vote for Cerberus, Veight and Prism Priestess on the popularity contest (helping them to become leaders) you're an objectively bad person.
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Post by Omegonthesane »

Too late, voted for (IIRC) Orthrus, Belphegor, and Zoe. (and Water Fairy, Albert, Levi, and Genesis Dragon)
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Post by Username17 »

For a lot of them there is no right answer. However for some there is only one correct answer. Every craft should have access to four types of Leaders:
  • Dude
  • Waifu
  • Kawaii
  • Monster
The Street Fighter leaders were mostly crap because they weren't substantively different from options that already existed. Isabelle is a Waifu, Juri is a Waifu. Rowen is a Dude, Ryu is a Dude. About the only place it really matters is Shadowcraft, because Luna is Cute and Mordecai is a Monster, while M Bison is a Dude.

Swordcraft only has Waifus and Dudes as leaders, and all of the options are just other Waifus or Dudes. Practically speaking it makes no difference at all which wins for Swordcraft because it won't open any new class of Leaders no matter what it is. Shadowcraft is only missing Waifus, which means that Nephthys is the one and only correct choice.

What's really pathetic is that for Runecraft it's obvious that Daria is going to win, but practically speaking she's no different from Isabelle or Juri - just another Waifu with purple hair. The obvious choice is to go with something cute or monstrous for variety, which means the only correct choice is Flame Destroyer. But sadly, we're going to get Daria and a severe lack of fucks will be given that day.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Mage of Dragonlore or swordmage would've been nice for rune dudes
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Post by maglag »

FrankTrollman wrote: Swordcraft only has Waifus and Dudes as leaders, and all of the options are just other Waifus or Dudes. Practically speaking it makes no difference at all which wins for Swordcraft because it won't open any new class of Leaders no matter what it is.
Jeno would be Swordcraft's furry Monster option.

Kunoichi Trainee would qualify for cute. Even her evolved fluff text points out she's not waifu material.
FrankTrollman wrote: Shadowcraft is only missing Waifus, which means that Nephthys is the one and only correct choice.
What's wrong with the widows? They're literally (ex) Waifus already!
FrankTrollman wrote: What's really pathetic is that for Runecraft it's obvious that Daria is going to win, but practically speaking she's no different from Isabelle or Juri - just another Waifu with purple hair. The obvious choice is to go with something cute or monstrous for variety, which means the only correct choice is Flame Destroyer. But sadly, we're going to get Daria and a severe lack of fucks will be given that day.
One of the Golems as Runecraft leader would rock.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Nah man, Vagabond Frog.
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Post by Josh_Kablack »

What runecraft really needs is the option to turn the opposing leader into a flame rat.
"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Post by Username17 »

Obscure and bad Blood archetypes get a lot. So the core Blood deck of the moment is Vengeance Blood, which doesn't really get very much in the new set. You might want Carabosse, but probably not. You might want to pull up Boy with Airjammer, but again probably not. Vengeance Blood likely has exactly the same set of cards in it after the next set as it does now.

But Aggro, Midrange, and Control get so many amazing toys. Aggro is going to slot in Carabosse and Boy Who Cried Wolf immediately. Those work with the game plan so well that it's ridiculous. Control got what it has been missing this entire meta: a hard wincondition. Control Blood can finally rid itself of Wardrobe Raider because it's been powercreeped by Big Knuckles and Sabreur, and T7 Emeralda into T8 Spawn of the Abyss gives it 16 points of T9 face damage damage from a T8 play that cannot be targeted or attacked - that's basically Seraph. And Midrange is feeling pretty smug about being able to slot in value traders at 4 and 5 while still running a good early bat package and a good set of T7 Storm Finishers.

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Post by DSMatticus »

For vengeance blood, the variant with 2-3x 7-drops will become the standard, and those 7-drops will be Emeralda instead of Alucard/Soul Dominator. People will struggle to fit Boy Who Cried Wolf in their deck, and probably decide it doesn't belong. It's basically the same deck, it's just better at handling wards and surviving to T8 if it needs to.

For aggro bat, Carabosse replaces Imp Lancer. People will struggle to fit Boy Who Cried Wolf in their decks, and probably find a place for it by cutting some number of Cursebrand Vampires/Vampiric Fortresses/random 3-drops. It's basically the same deck, it just has a better chance of closing things out in the midgame.

Outside of that, I have no fucking idea. Blood is a pile of good cards with a chaotic web of synergies pulling it in a dozen different directions. Blood has amazing cards for killing the opponent and amazing cards for killing their opponent's board at basically every single spot on the curve. It now has a finisher that... is still a little too slow for the meta, but it's more reliable than Maelstrom Serpent shenanigans and it's faster than RoB's Temptress Vampire/Bahamut. You can do basically anything with a blood deck; you can put on the hurt from T1 to T9. You can spend 8 turns telling the opponent no and then OTK them on T9. You can even spend a couple turns doing aggro bat shit, fill out your midgame with a bunch of good trades/removal fanfares, and then wrap up the game with storm followers or a smaller Spawn of the Abyss combo. I think the only thing blood is missing are solid aggressive non-vengeance cards in the T4-T6 range.
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Post by OgreBattle »

I like the idea of Neutral getting a lot of good high cost rares and legendaries. It's an interesting design philosophy that... perhaps favors ramp dragon a bit.

Would y'all say that's overall a good design decision that gives all decks opportunities to use super strong cards?
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Post by Username17 »

DSM wrote:I think the only thing blood is missing are solid aggressive non-vengeance cards in the T4-T6 range.
Scarlet Sabreur is a 2/4 Bane for 5 and her fanfare is 2 damage to an enemy and heal you for 2. Not enemy follower, just any enemy. So if you want to do face damage with it, you can. Basically it's a 2 for1 that heals you or it's a Dance of Death that also kills a second thing and heals you for an Evo point.

Big Knuckles is also pretty crap in Vengeance Blood because you want to be playing Belphegor or Soul Dealer on that turn. But he's great in Blood Sneks, Midrange, or Control, because that is a turn you weren't going to be doing anything particularly good anyway and you might as well pay 2 life to kill an opposing follower and leave a 3/4 body on the field that you can then Evolve if you want.

I don't think Neutral Blood is going to be a thing. Tove is cute, but it's not actually better than Vania if you draw your combo pieces and it's much worse if you don't.

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Post by Josh_Kablack »

so, what're the theory decks around Spawn of the Abyss?

obviously there's the Enhanced Bandersnatch to setup Spawn line of play

It looks like Baphomet with either Enhance or Demon Key shenanigans should be able to reliably get Spawn into play on turn 6.

If you do run Urd and Laura for the OTK combo, what other decent value cards offer synergies with those two?
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