[OSSR]D2: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa

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Post by Username17 »

Thaluikhain wrote: Also, the gnomes can see in UV? What is actually generating UV down underground though?
One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

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Post by TiaC »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Thaluikhain wrote: Also, the gnomes can see in UV? What is actually generating UV down underground though?
One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

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I'm guessing the logic is that *Blacklight* must exist in darkness.
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Post by Shiritai »

TiaC wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

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I'm guessing the logic is that *Blacklight* must exist in darkness.
It *would* explain why the Drow are so dark.
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Post by hyzmarca »

How exactly would one transport 600 levels worth of Drow to the shrine anyway?

The logistics of that seem like it would end with your Drow captives kicking you to death. Especially if that requirement is for each of the PCs, and not the party as a whole.
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Post by Ancient History »

Provided you felt like trolling the Random Encounter Tables, the Drow parties have 28-64 levels worth of characters. So it would take probably a couple of in-game weeks to get enough captives, but it's doable. If you're lucky, Mister Cavern might reason you've pissed off the Drow enough to send an army after you, which would solve the issue in a hurry.
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Ancient History wrote:Throughout this module, the Kuo-Toa show little Lovecraftian references, like the angles of the shrine being wrong and all that, but the actual appearance of Lobster Tits actually traces back to the obscure William Hope Hodgson story "The Island of the Ud" - because Gary was well-read.
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Post by tussock »

AD&D Vision is easy.

Infravision is like moonlight, everything is the same colour and you can't make out more than basic outlines, and then only at very short range underground, but it's heat vision so living things (or unnaturally cold things) stand out very clearly. You can't hide in shadows from Infravision, but you can hide in heat. Footprints can be followed for a couple minutes.

Long range Infravision is active IR-torch eyes, most dungeon monsters have IR-torch eyes, and can see the shapes of everything in detail, as well as picking up warm or unnaturally cold creatures. Neither passive nor active Infravision work in torchlight or better. This is also 3e's Darkvision, except for the sad lack of glowing eyes.

Ultravision is like twilight even in full darkness, you can see normally but not far. It's for seeing on a dark night, and only works underground in drow cities which are built in special radiation chambers. Ultravision doesn't even work in candlelight. This is 3e Low-Light Vision, except in 3e it works in torchlight too.
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Post by Username17 »

In case you were wondering: everything Tussock just said is wrong. I know you're all shocked.
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Post by TiaC »

It seems like it would take some real effort to be as consistently wrong as tussock, but somehow he manages it.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Er, from what I remember of AD&D infravision, Tussock seems to be correct about that. Don't remember how ultravision was supposed to work.
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Post by Username17 »

Infravision is defined differently in several different places within AD&D. The key is that it has a range and it shuts off when you are next to a light source. If you can see with normal vision, you don't get to see with infravision. Because it's AD&D and fuck you.

There are several different rants about the "science" of Infravision, and indeed there is a rant in the AD&D DMG about how monsters shoot infrared lasers out of their eyes and normal infravision users would see them all as having glowing red eyes. This rant is totally not supported in other parts of the rules.

The fact that Ultraviolet light is not really emitted or present without the Sun being involved is something that parts of the DMG notice and talk about. This goes completely fucking out the window in the discussions of monsters who actually have Ultravision, because just about all of them live underground.

Then there's a second thing where some parts of the rules seem to think that magic in general is an ultraviolet light source. Which would be cool if that was in any way consistent. What we actually get is rants about how Drow equipment melts in the sun because there isn't enough ultraviolet radiation above ground. It's... it's really bad. The only saving grace is that at least Gygax can't keep his fucking story straight and his babbling is totally different every time he sits down at a typewriter.

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Post by Emerald »

FrankTrollman wrote:Infravision is defined differently in several different places within AD&D. The key is that it has a range and it shuts off when you are next to a light source. If you can see with normal vision, you don't get to see with infravision. Because it's AD&D and fuck you.

There are several different rants about the "science" of Infravision, and indeed there is a rant in the AD&D DMG about how monsters shoot infrared lasers out of their eyes and normal infravision users would see them all as having glowing red eyes. This rant is totally not supported in other parts of the rules.

The fact that Ultraviolet light is not really emitted or present without the Sun being involved is something that parts of the DMG notice and talk about. This goes completely fucking out the window in the discussions of monsters who actually have Ultravision, because just about all of them live underground.

Then there's a second thing where some parts of the rules seem to think that magic in general is an ultraviolet light source. Which would be cool if that was in any way consistent. What we actually get is rants about how Drow equipment melts in the sun because there isn't enough ultraviolet radiation above ground. It's... it's really bad. The only saving grace is that at least Gygax can't keep his fucking story straight and his babbling is totally different every time he sits down at a typewriter.

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It's not as bad or contradictory as that, and Tussock is actually mostly not wrong in this case. Spoilering things for length and big quote blocks:
The DMG description differentiates standard infravision (anything up to 60 feet, which PC races and most monsters have) from improved infravision (anything with a longer range than 60 feet, which a handful of dungeon monsters, not most, have [trolls being the only critter in the 1e MM that I could find] as well as demons and devils and such).

Standard infravision:
1e DMG, p59 wrote:Characters and various creatures with infravisual capability out to 60' (standard) are basically picking up radiation from their surroundings. Therefore they note differences in thermal radiation, hot or cold. They do not "see" things which are the same temperature as their surroundings. Thus, a room in a dungeon might look completely blank, as walls, floor, ceiling, and possibly even some wooden furniture within are all of the same temperature. Openings in the walls should show up rather plainly, as space anywhere else will,
[...]
Note also that monsters of a very cold or very warm sort (such as a human) can be tracked infravisually by their footprints. Such tracking must occur within 2 rounds of their passing, or the temperature difference where they had trodden will dissipate.
[...]
lnfravision outdoors enables the individual to see figures which are warm or cold at 100' to 300', depending on temperature extremes. Vision is otherwise equal to a bright, starry night, with full moonlight.
Improved infravision:
1e DMG, p59 wrote:Creatures with infravisual capability of unusual nature, such as those which see infrovisually to 90', are actually emitting infrared radiation from their eyes and seeing what is within this visual range by receiving the reflected radiation. Such creatures can easily distinguish floor, ceiling, wall, and other areas, as well as furnishings within an area. The eyes of all such creatures will appear as very brightly glowing red when observed by any other creature with standard infravision.
The glowing-eyes bit isn't really mentioned anywhere else in the rules that I can find, but neither is it contradicted. It does show up in several places in the novels, though, mostly in the FR drow books.

As for ultravision being mostly useless underground, the DMG description notes that from the start, and most monsters with ultravision said to see well underground are those with infravision as well; "They have both ultravisual and infravisual capabilities" is a common line in monster descriptions. Also, the rules don't say that "magic" in general generates ultraviolet light, just that magic weapon illumination does.
1e DMG, p59 wrote:Ultravision is the ability to see radiation above violet in the normal visible spectrum. Unless this ability is of highly unusual nature, so as to be able to see far into this spectrum, ultravision will not be useful Underground (where radiation is screened out) without some source of ultravisual emanation. Magic weapons which shed illumination spoil ultravisual capability, just as heat does infravision. As noted in PLAYERS HANDBOOK, ultravision enables the viewer to see outdoors at night as if he or she were in twilight, so vision extends clearly for about 100 yards, dimly to about 300. On particularly cloudy nights, ultravisual capability is reduced to about half normal, i.e. clear sight to 50 yards, dim to 150 yards.
And a section on special vision underwater that gets the science of infravision wrong, as Frank noted, but that also notes the limitations of ultravision without sunlight:
1e DMG, p56 wrote:lnfravision and ultravision are useful underwater, and their distance limits are the same as in dungeon settings. There are some problems, however: infravision users may become confused due to shifting currents and layers of different-temperatured water, as water exchanges heat more slowly than air and therefore is of a less even temperature. Distance of ultravision is halved at 100' depth and reduced to zero below 200' as ultraviolet "light" does not penetrate beyond that depth in sufficient quantities for sight.
And drow equipment is not powered by ultraviolet light, rather by "unknown radiations" (that would later be called "Faerzress" in FR):
1e Fiend Folio, p34 and D3: Vault of the Drow, p5 wrote:Special Note Regarding Drow Cloaks, Armor, and Weapons: All of these items have special properties, although none of them radiate any magic. The items are made under the conditions particular to the strange homeland of the Drow, for this place has unknown radiations which impart special properties to these cloaks, armor and weapons. When such items are exposed to direct sunlight a rotting process sets in. The process is absolutely irreversible, and within 2 weeks cloaks will fall to shreds, while armor and weapons become pitted and unusable. If items are not exposed to sunlight, they will retain their magical properties for 31-50 days before losing them, and if they are exposed to the radiation of the Drow homeland 30 or so days, they will remain potent. Items not spoiled by sunlight will eventually lose their special properties if not exposed to the special radiation, but they will remain serviceable as normal cloaks, armor, shields, swords, maces, etc.

Drow sleep poison decays instantly in sunlight. Its power is lost after about 60 days in any event, and the coating on the small bolts and javelins must be periodically renewed with fresh applications of the fungoid substance. The Dark Elves will often have small barrels filled with several packets of this poison, each sealed to insure the poisonous substance remains fresh for about 1 year.
...nor are all drow cities built in caverns with sources of ultraviolet light, rather the Vault of the Drow in particular has one large orb and many smaller orbs in the ceiling made of a particular mineral that allows infravision, ultravision, and normal vision to all work in the Vault:
D3: Vault of the Drow, p11 wrote:The true splendor of the Vault can be appreciated only by those with infravision, or by use of the roseate lenses or a gem of seeing. The Vault is a strange anomaly, a hemispherical cyst in the crust of the earth, an incredibly huge domed fault over 6 miles long and nearly as broad. The dome overhead is a hundred feet high at the walls, arching to several thousand feet height in the center. When properly viewed, the radiation from certain unique minerals give the visual effect of a starry heaven, while near the zenith of this black stone bowl is a huge mass of tumkeoite — which in its slow decay and transformation to lacofcite sheds a lurid gleam, a ghostly plum-colored light to human eyes, but with ultravision a wholly different sight.

The small "star" nodes glow in radiant hues of mauve, lake, violet, puce, lilac, and deep blue. The large "moon" of tumkeoite casts beams of shimmering amethyst which touch the crystalline formations with colors unknown to any other visual experience. The lichens seem to glow in rose madder and pale damson, the fungi growths in golden and red ochres, vermillions, russets, citron, and aquamarine shades. (Elsewhere the river and other water courses sheen a deep velvety purple with reflected highlights from the radiant gleams overhead vying with streaks and whorls of old silver where the liquid laps the stony banks or surges against the ebon piles of the jetties and bridge of the elfin city for the viewers' attention.) The rock walls of the Vault appear hazy and insubstantial in the wine-colored light, more like mist than solid walls. The place is indeed a dark fairyland.
The 3e Underdark book later established that the illuminating radiation from the tumkeoite-to-lacofcite decay process and the equipment-enhancing radiation from the Faerzress were one and the same, but this wasn't necessarily the case at the time; either way, it wasn't actual ultraviolet light in the Vault of the Drow, just magical radiation that was also visible with ultravision.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Drow being constantly exposed to massive underground UV radiation sources would explain why they have such high melanin content and why they don't all suffer from serous vitamin D deficiency.
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Post by OgreBattle »

How long is this dungeon expected to take to complete
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Post by Ancient History »

Doesn't say, but it's a tournament module, so probably 1-3 hours if you don't lollygag and try to sack the shrine along the way.
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Post by Harshax »

The Slavers Modules (A1-A4) actually outlined a scoring system and a time limit for their modules. I'm specifically looking at A2 at the moment. The time limit was 3 hours for that adventure. Points were tabulated based on the last encounter completed as well as the number of characters which survived. The scoring system assumed you had 9 players. The best possible score was 405 points, for all 9 characters to complete and survive Area 9. To avoid ties during an actual tournament, the DM was allowed to adjust scoring for excellence of play by -/+ 3 points. So, 432 points was the best possible score.
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Post by talozin »

Ancient History wrote:Not while Gary Gygax was writing them. I want to say Against the Cult of the Reptile God was a pretty decent introductory adventure.
I'd have to go and reread it to be totally sure, and my copy is packed up in anticipation of moving, but my recollection is that Cult of the Reptile God is a fine introductory adventure right up until the last encounter. And then they all die, or become the BBEG's new brainwashed henchmen, because they're fighting a 9HD monster who has the spellcasting ability of a 5th level wizard plus that of a 4th level cleric; a Charm Person gaze attack; and a poisonous bite.
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Post by tussock »

Yes, but ...
as the boat is about to land and it drops the fireball, it turns out the the party is protected by a Globe of Invulnerability, cast by the accompanying DM penis extension who then Lightning Bolts it, so the Naga just melees them for a bit and dies. The party also gets neutralise poison potions before the fight.
The treasure is colossal and will totally put everyone up a level and also give them all a pretty sweet magic item.
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

Shiritai wrote:
TiaC wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote: One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

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I'm guessing the logic is that *Blacklight* must exist in darkness.
It *would* explain why the Drow are so dark.
What color is a drow's skin, anyway? I remember in their early Greyhawk appearances they were "olive-skinned" but in every illustration I've ever seen they're purple.
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Post by Sir Aubergine »

What color is a drow's skin, anyway? I remember in their early Greyhawk appearances they were "olive-skinned" but in every illustration I've ever seen they're purple.
The old school pictures I've looked at would give them either full purple skin or black skin with purple accents/outlines. More modern pictures discarded the purple element and went for either coal black or very dark gray.

In Drowtales they actually made them have different flavors of gray, and implied it was an eugenically induced process perpetuated to further distinguish all of the warring clans.

Olive skin sounds really interesting? That most have been really early works right?
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Post by JigokuBosatsu »

This is a super ancient memory, but the only specific reference I can think of was the original description of Tysiln San in the Valley of the Mage.

I am ready to accept this memory as incorrect, but I do remember being confused by it since, like I said, usually purple.
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JigokuBosatsu wrote:so a regular glass armonica?
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Post by tussock »

Fiend Folio wrote:Drow are black-skinned and pale-haired. They are slight of build and have long, delicate fingers and toes.
Maybe it's different in the original G3? I have G1-3 with the same text, specifying further that the males are dead black skin with dead white hair, with orange to orange-yellow eyes, and the females are glossy black skin with shiny silver hair and amber eyes or rarely "lambent violet", which means something like a dull glow.

In 2nd edition, they're black skinned with pale hair, usually white. The core art however changed from black to grey skinned, and other art has them somewhat purple, I'm pretty sure the art being grey to purple here and there was a matter of the inability to print large solid black colours without bleed-through.

3.0 Drow have Jet black skin with pale hair, usually white, so do 3.5 Drow. The art is obviously glossy black skin. 4th edition uses the exact same art.

5th edition Drow are "dark-skinned", but the art is still jet black skin with white hair.

People who aren't D&D tend to make them purple, so as to not suggest quite so much that dark elves lost the race war and now just steal from and murder the white elves while raiding from their ghettos. But in D&D, Drow are jet black, with the females somewhat shinier, and they lost the race war because the white elves were better than them.

But you know, Gygax, 70s. The bad guy races are brown, and darker as they get meaner, and drow are the meanest of all, so they are jet black, because that is what scary people look like. The best and most good elves are the fairest, it's not subtle.
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Post by Username17 »

Tussock wrote:The core art however changed from black to grey skinned, and other art has them somewhat purple, I'm pretty sure the art being grey to purple here and there was a matter of the inability to print large solid black colours without bleed-through.
That's basically it, yeah. Same reason Superman is shown with blue hair. Black hair is hard to do in a lot of printed art. If you're doing colored-in line drawings, black hair looks pretty weird.

Drow became colors other than black because as originally described they were hard to draw.

Image

How are you going to color this picture if the color is supposed to be "black"?

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