D&D: Monster Hunter

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Dean
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D&D: Monster Hunter

Post by Dean »

I like Monster Hunter cause it’s dope as hell and I’ve been thinking about trying to mod it into D&D because it’s actually a good fit in a lot of ways. For anyone who doesn’t know Monster Hunter is a video game about hunting fantastic monsters. It has some themes and tropes which I’ll cover briefly and why they’re a good fit for a D&D mod

Everyone’s a Conan: Growing up in a world where wyverns are as common as raccoons means everyone is an olympian. Every monster hunter human is like Bo Jackson, and having your PC’s all have a genetic makeup that makes Samoan bodybuilders look shabby means you can crack the glass ceiling of what “fighter” types can accomplish without people’s suspension of disbelief breaking.
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They eat like this, that's some Michael Phelps shit

A Primitive World: The MH world is very primitive and very dangerous. It’s also a place where basically every settlement is a military fortification because if your village can’t repel a T-rex then it doesn’t get to stay there. Technology is relatively primitive with people still crafting things out of bones and monster hides. The one exception to this is gunpowder, which they do have, which on some level makes sense because I kind of imagine they’re trying to militarize literally every rock and ore they ever find because dinosaurs eat their houses. Still a classic part of MH is that you kill a monster and then get to make gear out of it and I think that’d be easy to port into any edition of D&D. You just create different minor magic effects that each type of weapon or armor can give you and boom you’re golden. Wearing the Rathalos armor makes you resistant to fire so you’d wear it if you knew you were tangling with fire beasties.
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Like more Rathalos's

Monster Discovery: The MH world is largely undiscovered. Roads are bad to nonexistent because going anywhere is terrifying and I imagine most people die in the village they were born in. In every game you’ll go into new places and discover new wildlife and see what tries to kill you. The sensation of discovering a new monster, learning what it is and what it does and how it fights until you can beat it with relative ease is one of the core parts of the games fun: A thing going from undiscovered, new, and mysterious to understood and mastered.

Group Fighting: In MH you have an adventuring party that kills dangerous monsters for your society, that’s a perfit fit for D&D. There is also a feeling to the fights I would like to maintain which is very teamwork focused. You’re usually trying to get the best hits in you can but calling out when a monster is going to do some big attack, or trying to hit it at the right time to stop those big attacks, as well as doing things like paralyzing it or mounting it to let the whole group get a few seconds where they can come hit the monster with everything they have free of worry. To me getting the “feeling” of fighting the eponymous monsters is perhaps the most important and challenging idea of a D&D mod.
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Post by Artless »

Point of contention: Monster Hunter isn't anywhere near a primitive society, despite the materials they use.

It's a triumph of the series' world building that nearly everything is made out of monster parts and it's almost universally integrated, but that's because in their world monster parts are the best. Wyvern bones and scales are harder than steel so why the hell wouldn't you use their remains for structures or weapons when you have them on hand? They have flamethrowers, complicated weaponry that folds and transforms from personal cannon to powerful lances without breaking apart when struck against stone, fuckin' airships, steam engines, basic electrical equipment and wired communication.

That their towns and cities get blown up when an Elder Dragon has hunger pains explains why most of their settlements are transient vernacular architecture, but they are by no means struggling to survive. The more temporary setups the games posit for the frontier settlements is indeed more sustainable seeing as it's hinted throughout the locations that in the past they had more permanent structures that were routinely destroyed.

That aside it's a poor fit for Dungeons and Dragons or its cousins simply because the protracted, detail-oriented hunts can't be replicated in high level play and low-level play doesn't scale to the sizes or scenarios involved in MonHun. You'd be stuck on kelbie hunts or fighting bullfangos for 7 levels and then jump straight to Elder Dragons that go down in 3 turns. Hit locations have never been satisfying in a d20-based game, and the focus on equipment effects shaping how the encounter goes is vastly different from the way D&D or PF handle magic items. You could easily kit FATE for it, though.
Last edited by Artless on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dean »

All of their technology that we see is used almost exclusively for the benefit of murder. While they possess things that might have been societally revolutionary in our world, in their world flammable liquids are turned into flamethrowers and not combustion engines. It's a low tech world not because of their capabilities but because of the zeitgeist of their mindset. You couldn't make a MH person give a shit about combustion engines unless you can club a dinosaur to death with one because their whole mindset revolves around killing dinosaurs that want to eat their babies. Still I understand what you're saying that the technological capabilities they show are often fairly advanced, even if used in generally murder-based ways

I disagree entirely with the idea that it's not a good fit for D&D. You're getting stuck on incredible specifics of the gameplay and thinking, correctly, that it would be unsatisfying to make a group of players sit around a table top and say "I slash" 7000 times over 40 minutes with occasional breaks to use a whetstone. When you translate something to a tabletop game you'll make changes to fit that environment. One big change you're going to make is of granularity and that seems to be where you're getting lost. We don't want the fights to be "protracted and detail oriented" because a 5 turn fight in D&D takes an hour to run. You want to boil down elements of the original experience and present them in a way that delivers a similar experience in a tabletop environment. For instance in the games "Mounting" is very valuable and your attempts to mount fill a hidden damage meter that, when full, lets you leap on the monsters back and stun it for 10 seconds of free punching time for your team. In a tabletop you absolutely would not have hidden meters to fill you would just want to preserve the exciting experience of someone taking the monster down and letting everyone beat on it once a fight or so. Something like making the monster get stunned and knocked prone on a critical hit would let someone get a lucky hit off that suddenly let your team beat the shit out of it damage-free for a round.

As to preparation not shaping an encounter I don't know where you're coming from. There's a huge difference in a Red Dragon fight where you're ambushed and one where you go in with fire resistance potions, shivering touch/scale weakening prepared and buffs up. The normal D&D experience is one where preparing correctly for a fight makes it easy and being surprised by a fight makes it much harder. Equipment effects and preparation shaping an encounter is the norm in the D&D experience not a deviation.
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Post by Artless »

There's almost no similarity, to my sensibilities, between D&D and MonHun's itemization beyond the fact that players can dumpster dive for the things that benefit them most before going out to hit things with sticks. Other than that they're wildly different.

D&D itemization is a gatekeeping mechanism. MonHun itemization is an optimization/convenience mechanism.

You can fight a Rathian naked with a Bone Kris all day and get the kill just fine with good timing and knowing where to position yourself because the game puts the animal on the ground, you can heal whenever you want to with little risk if you aren't an idiot, and the game is basically just about whacking stuff forever anyway. Getting better armor skills or drinking your powerades before a fight is helpful, but not required to overcome any given hunt and in fact a ton of players new to the series don't even know you can eat food to get buffs and can manage to down the big hunts just fine. Frustrated, but fine. Especially in World where you get heals shat out on you practically for free.

That shit isn't going to happen in D&D, where if you don't have "fuck you" fire resistance or a way to mitigate poison the Rathian equivalent is going to eat you for dinner no matter how big your sword is cause it can fucking fly, shoot fire, and apply poison with a claw/tail attack that absolutely beats your AC. And if you can overcome its big problems through buffs and/or items it's not even a threat.[/i]
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Post by Mord »

Artless wrote:That shit isn't going to happen in D&D, where if you don't have "fuck you" fire resistance or a way to mitigate poison the Rathian equivalent is going to eat you for dinner no matter how big your sword is cause it can fucking fly, shoot fire, and apply poison with a claw/tail attack that absolutely beats your AC. And if you can overcome its big problems through buffs and/or items it's not even a threat.[/i]
That's probably the biggest issue with using d20 mechanics to simulate a fight like that - d20 spends most of its rule space evolving the ways in which stronger combatants can effortlessly skullfuck weaker combatants. It doesn't do a lot for situations like Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, and many other action and action RPG-type games, where the correct equipment can make a fight a lot easier but you can still fuck up and get smashed into toothpaste by trash mobs.
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Post by FatR »

Mord wrote: That's probably the biggest issue with using d20 mechanics to simulate a fight like that - d20 spends most of its rule space evolving the ways in which stronger combatants can effortlessly skullfuck weaker combatants. It doesn't do a lot for situations like Monster Hunter, Dark Souls, and many other action and action RPG-type games, where the correct equipment can make a fight a lot easier but you can still fuck up and get smashed into toothpaste by trash mobs.
You can do so in ARPGs because ARPGs have the save function, and MH/Souls in fact expect your character to die alot before you either git gud or stumble on a way to overcome a boss through trial and error.

In TTRPGs, where this is not true, defenses must be reliable. This raises the setting-impacting problem of a hero with high defenses being nigh-invulnerable to large numbers of trash combatants. DnD traditionally tried to keep basic defenses as low relative to attack as possible, which in turn made blanket resistances and immunities paramount.
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Post by Iduno »

The other problem with using D&D as a skeleton for this is D&D uses money for advancement. Buying a fire resistance armor or a case of holy water bottles means you have less gold to buy better plusses on weapons and armor, so your equipment is worse than it should be. Your AC is worse, and you can't hit as well, and you might have to fight a werewolf when you haven't saved up for a silver weapon.

In monster hunter, your equipment comes from murdering something badass, then making new stuff from the parts. Money just buys healing crap to keep you in the fight. Unless you have 2 currencies in D&D (one for weapons/armor/spells and one for potions/ropes/rations), the game world falls apart.
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Post by Emerald »

Iduno wrote:In monster hunter, your equipment comes from murdering something badass, then making new stuff from the parts. Money just buys healing crap to keep you in the fight. Unless you have 2 currencies in D&D (one for weapons/armor/spells and one for potions/ropes/rations), the game world falls apart.
I'm doing something like this in my current 3e campaign, where the PCs are members of an Iron Age civilization leading a settlement in an unexplored continent. Basically, magic items can't be bought (since they're out of contact with their homeland) and use the Craft rules rather than the Craft X Item feats, and instead of spending currency or gems they use monster parts. Crafting a magical item costing thousands of gold pieces would take roughly forever using the Craft progress rules, of course, so different monster parts can be used to speed things up.

I took the normal random treasure generation rules and came up with some substitutions, so instead of copper/silver/gold/gems/art/etc. you have monster part categories like hide, teeth/claws, sensory organs, and so forth. Every monster has certain positive and negative affinities that multiply or divide their effective value for certain items based on their affinities and their CR (e.g. an ancient fire dragon might have triple the value for items related to fire and flight and one-third the value for items related to cold, water, and stealth), and the multipliers combine so that you can finish your fancy flaming life-draining sword very quickly if you use the claws of a red dragon, the bone of a fire giant, and the plating of an iron golem to craft it.

And there's nothing saying they can't use monster parts to craft normal adventuring gear more quickly, it's just that the parts are generally too valuable for that, so items naturally divide themselves into "made normally" and "made from monster guts" categories without having to arbitrarily say "You have two currencies for two different kinds of items and can't trade between them for reasons."

That specific setup would probably be too fiddly outside of a 3e context, but the general idea of having monsters drop a not-exactly-a-currency currency that counts more or less towards crafting certain things based on a monster's theme can probably be adapted fairly readily.
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Post by Dogbert »

Warning: I have yet to play a single MH game, all I know is second-hand information... but what about this?

1) Get rid of the Item Creation feats and just rule out everyone can make magic/monster items with the right Craft skills.

2) Get rid of potions/scrolls and give those effects to "recipes" for cooks.

3) Give all classes a minimum of 6 skill points per level, because you want all classes to be able to craft goods without crippling the character.

Just the two cents from someone with NFI of what you're all talking about.
Last edited by Dogbert on Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zaranthan »

Dogbert wrote:3) Give all classes a minimum of 6 skill points per level, because you want all classes to be able to craft goods without crippling the character.
Simpler way of doing this: remove the Craft skill. Every character picks 1-3 Craft types and just makes level checks to determine how long making shit takes. Don’t give people points they can spend on Disable Device and then tell them they’re “supposed to” spend it on armorsmithing. That’s just taking us back to 2e’s “we need a cleric”.
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Post by Dogbert »

Zaranthan wrote:Simpler way of doing this: remove the Craft skill. Every character picks 1-3 Craft types and just makes level checks to determine how long making shit takes.
You pretty much nailed it, this has my vote!
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Post by Emerald »

Alternatively, make Craft like 3.0 Perform, where instead of putting ranks in separate Perform (Oratory), Perform (Bongo Drums), and Perform (Bagpipes) skills you had a single Perform skill and every rank bought you proficiency with a different form of performance. Or combine the two and let them make level checks for one kind of crafting per level, so low-level characters are your traditional smiths, carpenters, weavers, etc. and high-level characters can craft anything with whatever.
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Post by OgreBattle »

How do you plan on making dual swords feel different from a great sword
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Post by Kaelik »

People independently inventing the concept of skill groups :cool:
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Post by Bihlbo »

Why not just play Exalted?
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Post by Whipstitch »

Exalted is a shit show.
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Post by erik »

Bihlbo wrote:Why not just play Exalted?
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Post by Whipstitch »

In all seriousness though, D&D has a fuck off huge pokedex to filch and adapt from and that's a big selling point even before you get to the part where you remember that D&D is the oldest trendsetter in the biz and that the nibelsnarf is literally just a desert bulette right down to the endless hunger gimmick.
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