A Demon Haunted World

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DrPraetor
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Post by DrPraetor »

Having your abilities refresh every combat only makes sense if anything those abilities could get for you - including healing - also refreshes every combat. So, no combat with doors.

You might want some long-term injury mechanic for when people are hit at 0 hp, but this is for later.

I think that charges (Sorcerer) and ISP (Psion) are insufficiently distinct to have both, but I think that charges are probably a better mechanic so let's stick with that. For one thing, as has been pointed out, almost no conversion rate between uses of 1st level abilities and uses of 4th level abilities is fair.

Okay, how about this.

First, battles last from 3 to 8 rounds, because we aren't insane. So as a resource scheme, cooldown is just insufficiently different from Vancian casting (especially as Vancian casters can double up slots) or Winds of Fate (which is cooler anyway.)

Thus, the resource schemes are:
[*] Vancian (V) (prepared abilities exhaust)
[*] Reaction (R) (abilities trigger)
[*] Winds-of-Fate (W) (abilities go in a deck)
[*] Charge Pool (C) (use fixed # of prepared abilities of each tier / combat)
[*] Metered (M) (magic points grow round to round)

Note: The Winds of Fate style abilities can have reaction-abilities in it (and it certainly does for both Monks and Enchanters.)

With the meter, the low-level:high-level exchange makes more sense because you're using a lower-level ability this round.

Between your primary class and your kit(s), you are not allowed more than two resource schemes. So if you are an Assassin (Reaction scheme), and you subclass into Reaping (a kind of death magic, it gives you a soulcruft meter), then you can't also sub into trump-summoning (which uses a deck.)

Some abilities are either always-on or usable generically as your action in combat as much as you want; these abilities do not have a resource scheme (although they use up finite prepared ability slots when you go back to town.) Thus the Hero, who gets abilities only of that type, can subclass into two different resource schemes. The Hero also gets a bonus subclass as first level. So the Hero gets to be a bit of a jack-of-all-trades with respect to subclasses.
ClassScheme
AssassinR
BerserkerM
DruidV
EnchanterW
Heronone
MonkW
PaladinV
PsionC
RangerC
WarlockM

We really want to avoid the Fantasy Hero Necromancer and Summoner, who shoot skull beams and spears-made-from-demons at people, respectively. I think if either of those is your main class, that should wait for the Heroic tier.
Subclass/KitSchemeNotes
ReapingMHave pet undead, your meter fills when things drop.
TrumpsWVery short-term summons. Your hand-size is reduced when you cast Trumps so you don't keep them around outside of combat.
HopliteRSpear-and-board combat style.

Last edited by DrPraetor on Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

Resources that you get specifically because combat music has started is one of those things that's a bit iffy even in computer games. Why not do like that paragon of verisimilitude, 4th edition D&D, and make "encounter powers" just be shorthand for things that take a 5 minute rest to recharge?
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Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:Trolls are a weird edge case.
That's fair enough - I know a bunch of people who aesthetically like the idea of being trolls. They would most likely be happy with "Green ogres" as that ticks the boxes of "Big, green, dumb-but-able-to-speak, brutish". Some would want to specifically be Discworld trolls which are not green and are a very specific thing that in D&D would be an entirely different monster. Possibly Gargoyles. So for a lot of people, saying "No Trolls" would be a bummer, but if you can say "But this thing ticks all the boxes except forcing every enemy to carry fire" they're happy. Maybe assume all townsfolk haven't been reading their Monsterious Manuels, and have them go "Oo-ar, that thar be a troll!"

So you've kind of threaded that needle, but still: is "Fast Healing 1" a thing that is on the table? Or are you enforcing a thing where healing absolutely is finite and player four is forced at gunpoint to be a Healer or the players declare "That's our one encounter for the day, we're going home and healing. The dungeon can wait because you haven't prepared anything else"?
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Post by merxa »

I'll try to sketch out a monster stat block as I understand the discussion so far.

Manticore

Flying (average)

Defenses (weak, average, strong, amazing; immune)
Armor Class: average
Fortitude: strong
Perception: strong
Willpower: weak
Mettle?: average
Elemental Resistance?: average

Attacks
Bite, claw, claw (rake?), spiked tail (poison)
or
Poisoned spines (4), range 'long'

special: Crash dive
The manticore can move up to it's flying speed and attempt to land atop an opponent, knocking it down, in addition to making a full attack.

Skills?
Languages, local dialect, one other

Ecology

Likely some magical experiment gone awry, Manticores have flourished in a variety of environments. Intelligent enough to avoid civilized areas, they make their lairs in difficult to reach caves and crags. Contemptuous and cowardly, Manticores prey upon those weaker then itself, quickly retreating when facing significant resistance.

~

Here's the original concept match up:
Assassin Good
Berserker Bad
Druid Good
Enchanter Bad
Hero Good
Monk Bad
Paladin Bad
Psion Good
Ranger Good
Warlock Good
~

Presumably to make this work the Berserker, Enchanter, Monk, Paladin, either don't have enough mobility, good range option, and/or a decent way of handling poison damage.
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Post by RobbyPants »

FrankTrollman wrote:
  • Armor Class (still split into Touch and Unaware AC for some special attacks)
  • Fortitude (the thing you resist Poisons with)
  • Perception (the thing you resist Illusions with)
  • Willpower (the thing you resist Fear with)
  • name to be decided (the thing you resist Entanglement with)
  • name to be decided (the thing you resist Lightning Bolts with)
That covers all the things that need covering. But yes, the last two need names. Combat Maneuver Defense and Elemental Defense do cover what they are, but ideally you'd want pithy 1 word names that abbreviate to 4 letter, 1 syllable terms like Fort and Will.
Entangle possibilities: impetus, elude*, eschew, escape*, free/freedom.
* These still imply motion, but I don't feel as strongly as "Reflex"

Elemental Defense possibilities: Mettle, toughness, grit, moxie, tenacity, ardor, fervor.


Of those, while I feel Impetus is a bit of a stretch, it implies a certain amount of inertia, and maybe the desire and ability to move. It might be the best fit for escaping entanglement.

Ardor, Fervor, Grit, Moxie, and Tenacity all imply more of a state of mind than just pure physical toughness. I think picking one of those names makes it a sort of odd fusion of Fort and Will where you mentally persevere. Of course, I can't think of why you'd mentally press of after a fireball but not after being poisoned. So, maybe Mettle or Toughness is our best bet. Toughness and Fortitude are close enough that I can see people simply forgetting which applies to poison, and wondering why those are two separate saves. Perhaps Mettle wins out by elimination?
  • Armor Class (AC)
  • Fortitude (Fort)
  • Perception (Perc?)
  • Willpower (Will)
  • Impetus (Impt?)
  • Mettle (Mett?/Metl?)
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Post by Trill »

RobbyPants wrote:Mettle (Mett?/Metl?)
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Post by Pariah Dog »

Mettle and Toughness both sound like Fortitude. If it's just a straight elemental resistance stat (resist lightning bolts, fireballs, polar rays) why not just call it Resistance or Elemental Resistance?
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Post by Username17 »

You wouldn't call it Resistance because basically all of these are resistance numbers against different stuff. I'm not actually that worked up about not having a perfect name for them.

In any case, the resource management system I like for Assassins is a version of Charge Up: where they can burn their movement for a boost or their whole turn for a larger boost. This makes them have an advantage when they get the drop on someone because they can do their larger boost at zero real cost. Also it encourages them to stand and fire with a crossbow, which is a cool fighting style for them to have.

It means that Assassins are severely short in the damage output department if they are forced to move around, but that they are at full power if they are allowed to exchange fire at whatever distance.

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Post by merxa »

My favorite part of the bestiary was always the ecology section as it gives the stat block some life and context to the setting. I decided to look through how previous editions handled the Manticore.

1st edition
Manticores prefer dismal lairs, so they are typically found in coves or
underground. They range in all climes, although they enjoy warm places
more than cold. The favorite prey of manticores is man, and they are
usually encountered outside their lairs hunting for human victims.
A manticore attacks first by loosing a volley of 6 of its iron tail spikes (1 S'
range as a light crossbow, 1-6 hit points damage per hit). They can fire four
such volleys.
Description: The coloration of the manticore is that of its various parts -
lion-colored body, bot-brown wings, human flesh head.

No. Appearing is listed at 1-4
2nd edition
Habitat/Society: Manticores are found in any climate but prefer warm lands to cool ones. This reflects the wide climate range of their favorite food, humans. A manticore’s territory may cover 20 or more square miles and includes at least one human settlement. Such territories usually overlap with those of other manticores and other man-eating predators like dragons.

Manticores mate for life. The male remains with the female during gestation and hunts for her. Manticores bear one or two cubs which grow rapidly to adulthood in five years. Cubs are born with 1 Hit Die and gain an additional one each year. In their first year, cubs lack flying ability, but they are still small enough for an adult to grasp in its forelegs. There is a 20% chance a she-manticore’s lair holds cubs under one year old. Cubs up to two years inflict one point of damage per front paw and 1-2 points with their bite. Cubs 3-4 years old inflict 1-2, 1-2, and 1-6 points of damage.

Manticore cubs can be caught and trained to assist evil humans. Such training is difficult and dangerous, especially since domesticated adults have an 80% chance of reverting to a wild state. Manticores will not allow themselves to be used as mounts. Wild adults may voluntarily ally themselves with evil humans, provided such allies can provide them with a steady, ample food supply.

Manticores normally eat their prey where they kill it. Males sometimes haul slain prey back to their mates or drag still-living prey to their lairs for the cubs to practice killing.

Manticores collect their victims’ valuables for a variety of reasons, including curiosity, emulation of other monsters who collect treasure, the man-scent on the things, or because they know humans value the things and therefore might come looking for them. Their lack of real hands prevents most manticores from using what magical items fall into their possession. However, manticores that have allied with evil humans may possess magical items designed specifically for their use. Examples include magical collars or bracelets that are, in effect, oversized magical rings.

Ecology: Manticores are wide-ranging carnivores that have successfully survived in every region inhabited by humans, whether in the wilderness or underground. They are nightmarish opponents but invaluable allies if conditions are right. A manticore’s pelt is a mark of the most powerful hunters and warriors. An intact, cured manticore hide complete with wings is worth 10,000 gp.
3rd edition is bereft of much details, lists Manticores as 10 feet long and weighing 1000 pounds, speaks common

Pathfinder
ECOLOGY

Environment warm hills and marshes
Organization solitary, pair, or pride (3–6)

Manticore Matings
Manticore’s Mate Offspring
Lion Standard manticore
Dire lion Advanced manticore
Lamia Lamia with spiked tail and spikes special attack
Sphinx Sphinx with spiked tail and spikes special attack
Chimera Chimera with spiked tail and spikes special attack

Manticores are fierce predators that patrol a wide area in search of fresh meat. A typical manticore is about 10 feet long and weighs about 1,000 pounds. Some have more human-like heads, usually with beards. Males and females look much alike.

Manticores eat any meat, even carrion, though they prefer human flesh and rarely pass up an opportunity for such a delicacy. They are smart and social enough to bargain with or bully evil humanoids into alliances or offering tribute, and more powerful creatures may hire or bribe them to guard or patrol a place or area. They like lairs in high places, such as hilltops and caves in cliffs.

Although manticores were likely a magical creation, they have long since established themselves as a naturally occurring species. Curiously, manticores seem strangely fecund, and can interbreed with a number of other similarly shaped creatures, including lions, dire lions, lamias, sphinxes, and even chimeras. The progeny of a manticore and an unusual mate is summarized on the table above.
4th edition
Manticore Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful
Nature check.
DC 15: Manticores are wicked predators that delight
in devouring intelligent creatures, especially dwarves and
humans. They fling iron spikes from their tails with deadly
precision.
DC 20: Manticores have three rows of teeth, which constantly
grow throughout their lives. They often leave old teeth
and iron spikes in the bodies of their mauled victims as sure
signs of manticore attack.
Although dimwitted, manticores understand Common
and can speak a few Common words and phrases. They are
exceedingly impatient and tend to attack those who attempt to
parley with them.
Encounter Groups
Manticores hunt in small prides of two or three individuals,
or sometimes singly. They are brutish, violent creatures that
can be brought under control only by masters too strong to be
eaten. Goblins or other intelligent monsters often entice manticores
to help them for a time with gifts of food or treasure.
However, manticores are greedy and disloyal and rarely stay
bribed for long.
Level 11 Encounter (XP 3,000)
✦ 1 manticore (level 10 elite skirmisher)
✦ 1 galeb duhr rockcaller (level 11 controller)
✦ 4 ogre savages (level 8 brute)
Level 13 Encounter (XP 4,200)
✦ 2 manticores (level 10 elite skirmisher)
✦ 2 hill giants (level 13 brute)
✦ 4 ogre thugs (level 11 minion)
5th edition.
A monster in every sense of the word, a manticore has
a vaguely humanoid head, the body of a lion, and the
wings of a dragon. A bristling mane stretches down
the creature's back, and its long tail ends in a cluster of
deadly spikes that can impale prey at impressive range.
Evil Predators. Manticores are fierce killers that hunt
far and wide for prey. They work together to take down
particularly large or dangerous creatures, sharing the
meal once a kill is made. A manticore begins its attack
with a volley of tail spikes, then lands and uses its claws
and bite. When outdoors and outnumbered, it uses its
wings to stay aloft, attacking from a distance until its
spikes are depleted.
A manticore isn't particularly bright, but it possesses
a malevolent nature and the ability to converse. In the
course of attacking, it denigrates its foes and offers to
kill them swiftly if they beg for their lives. If a manti core
sees an advantage to be gained by sparing a creature's
life, it does so, asking for a tribute or sacrifice equal to
its loss of food.
Monstrous Relationships. Manticores serve wicked
masters that treat them well and provide regular prey. A
manticore might provide aerial support for an ore horde
or a hobgoblin army. Another could serve as a hunting
companion for a hill giant chief, or guard the entrance to
a lamia's lair.
The manticores' greatest territorial rivals include
chimeras, griffons, perytons, and wyverns. Manticores
hunting as a pack often have the advantage of greater~:
numbers. In addition to these creatures, manticores fear;
dragons and avoid them.

Of interest is flavor text does callback to first edition:
"Manticores love the taste of human flesh. That's why on trips through the mountains I always travel with human guards." -- Marthok Uldarr, Dwarf Copper Merchant
2nd edition probably my favorite write up, but I also like the details added by Pathfinder and although I played all of 2 hours of 4th edition the encounter group section seems helpful to me.

What to have an ecology section
Basic vitals (size, weight)
Economic Value (hide, poison harvesting, husbandry)
Behavior (mating patterns, typical lairs, hunting habits, hunting range, typical allies and predators).

Manticore Ecology

With a human-like face, the body of a lion, dragon-like wings, and a long tail bristling with poisonous spikes, the manticore is a terrifying predator.

Likely some magical experiment gone awry, Manticores have flourished in all manner of environments. Intelligent enough to avoid civilized areas, they make their lairs in difficult to reach caves and crags. Contemptuous and cowardly, Manticores prey upon those weaker than itself, quickly retreating when facing significant resistance.

A typical adult Manticore is 10 feet long and weighs 1000 pounds. An intact pelt can fetch a good price to the right buyer, and up to eight vials of poison can be extracted from recent corpses with a successful [check].

Highly cross-fertile, manticores can inter-breed with many different species, with evidence of successful pairings between lions, dire lions, lamias, chimeras, and even sphinxes. A typical litter is 2-4 pups which mature within 3 years.

Their naturally wicked, and impatient natures make them nearly impossible to tame but have been known to form temporary alliances with bandits, monsterous humanoids such as orcs and bugbears, giants, and evil sphinxes. In exchange for magical items and other gifts they have even been known to serve as mounts. Manticores loathe and fear dragons and only serve them out of necessity, looking for any opportunity to flee or kill them.

They prefer the taste of human flesh but will hunt whatever is available including scavenging for carrion in lean times. They'll travel as far as (3 hexes) from their lairs, and tend to collect the valuables of their prey for trade and bait.

Organization, solitary, pair (50% 2-4 pups), pride (4-8), mixed pride (1-2 with 3-6 lions or dire lions), other.
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Post by Username17 »

I am a big believer in all the monsters having 500 word rants in them. It makes monsters be something other than a pile of stats and really helps with the world building and storytelling portions of the game. But I would say that D&D has frequently gone off the rails while having those written. And yes, I would say that going off into the weeds of describing all the things a Manticore can fuck certainly qualifies.

I'd have a lot more respect for the rants in 4e if I didn't realize that they were literally created as a means to procedurally waste as much space as possible so that they could "fill" the Monster Manual 1 while still "leaving good stuff" to print in the Monster Manual 2. Also, a lot of the "bear lore" stuff they wrote into that book is just place holder garbage, like repeating that bears can live in caves twenty million times.
With a human-like face, the body of a lion, dragon-like wings, and a long tail bristling with poisonous spikes, the manticore is a terrifying predator.

Likely some magical experiment gone awry, Manticores have flourished in all manner of environments. Intelligent enough to avoid civilized areas, they make their lairs in difficult to reach caves and crags. Contemptuous and cowardly, Manticores prey upon those weaker than itself, quickly retreating when facing significant resistance.

A typical adult Manticore is 10 feet long and weighs 1000 pounds. An intact pelt can fetch a good price to the right buyer, and up to eight vials of poison can be extracted from recent corpses with a successful [check].

Highly cross-fertile, manticores can inter-breed with many different species, with evidence of successful pairings between lions, dire lions, lamias, chimeras, and even sphinxes. A typical litter is 2-4 pups which mature within 3 years.

Their naturally wicked, and impatient natures make them nearly impossible to tame but have been known to form temporary alliances with bandits, monsterous humanoids such as orcs and bugbears, giants, and evil sphinxes. In exchange for magical items and other gifts they have even been known to serve as mounts. Manticores loathe and fear dragons and only serve them out of necessity, looking for any opportunity to flee or kill them.

They prefer the taste of human flesh but will hunt whatever is available including scavenging for carrion in lean times. They'll travel as far as (3 hexes) from their lairs, and tend to collect the valuables of their prey for trade and bait.

Organization, solitary, pair (50% 2-4 pups), pride (4-8), mixed pride (1-2 with 3-6 lions or dire lions), other.
That's a good minimalist edition hybrid manticore rant. It could take an extra 250 words of ranting, which could be about stuff they like or dislike, their use as mounts by certain Goblin tribes, the ease or difficulty of recreating the hybridization rituals that got us here in the first place, or the relationship to manticore mutants like Scorpicores and Tigricore and Mantipard and such like and so on.

But in general, I think every monster should have like 500 words of ranting about their place in the world and how they look and feel and eat and stuff. These pieces of flash fiction make monsters be things that people remember and care about more than just piles of stats.

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Post by OgreBattle »

Pariah Dog wrote:Mettle and Toughness both sound like Fortitude. If it's just a straight elemental resistance stat (resist lightning bolts, fireballs, polar rays) why not just call it Resistance or Elemental Resistance?
Lots of video games use Resistance, Elemental Resistance, that seems to be the best choice so far
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kaelik »

I thought this thread was about naming demon human tribes, so I stopped reading it, and I come back and see that apparently it is about designing monsters and a heartbreaker. :wink:

It's interesting to see some of the parallels with this any my current version of Fiends and Fortresses, though not really surprising, given that there's been a lot of cross cultural pollution on the Den, especially me stealing things from Frank.

My system is "handicapped" by being committed to theoretically being able to convert 3e monster manual monsters at level as the MM, so even if some of it is done by making a bunch of numbers into a chart and just changing monster numbers, the actual monsters are not being designed from scratch. I also have the Fortress angle that changes things, and my own take on classes and such.

To give some idea of how I've addressed some of these issues though:

Stats: Might, Agility, Willpower, Intelligence:

"Defenses"

Physical/Armor Class
Dodge (basically touch AC)
Fortitude
Reflex
Will
Perception

Agility applies to Dodge, Physical, and Reflex
Might is applies to soak against damaging effects and Fort saves.
Intelligence applies to Perception
And willpower applies to will.

Physical stats are "better" defenses, especially at low levels, perhaps less so later.

I have charts I'm in the process of that give numbers for monsters of different types, and most monsters probably get several combat abilities striped, but I absolutely agree that simpler combat, but way more non combat is the way to go on monsters.
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Post by zugschef »

Wtf is the difference between a dodge and a reflex defense?
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Post by OgreBattle »

zugschef wrote:Wtf is the difference between a dodge and a reflex defense?
Perhaps one also includes shields and parrying, so like a deflection defense
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Post by Kaelik »

zugschef wrote:Wtf is the difference between a dodge and a reflex defense?
What the hell is a difference between a Reflex Save and a Touch AC?

I mean, like, these clearly aren't the official names of things, since one of them is literally called the same name as a stat, and they are all the names of 3.5 things.

So while theoretically acting in a vacuum it might be possible to someone to pretend to be unable to imagine the difference, someone who has ever played a single game of 3e D&D can't pretend to not understand the difference.
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Post by Username17 »

Dodge and Reflex are both bad names for passive defenses because they are things that structurally have to be done by things like third story windows that are difficult to hit but are not actually moving around except in some sort of continental drift or planetary rotation context. In general, I kinda think that none of the defenses should necessarily imply that you are moving at all, since some of the things that structurally should have good defenses in such fields might be literally immobile.

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Post by Kaelik »

FrankTrollman wrote:Dodge and Reflex are both bad names for passive defenses because they are things that structurally have to be done by things like third story windows that are difficult to hit but are not actually moving around except in some sort of continental drift or planetary rotation context. In general, I kinda think that none of the defenses should necessarily imply that you are moving at all, since some of the things that structurally should have good defenses in such fields might be literally immobile.

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I think the Elder Brain should probably have a low touch AC, but I also don't want to call it Touch AC, Dodge is still a bad name (hence why I appended it with Touch AC) because it implies it is literally zero where it should instead be probably practically zero, but.... well still can't think of evil trees or Elder Brains having high Touch AC.

but since I was deliberately using 3.5 naming conventions some of which won't make it into the actual game under those names for ease of comprehension of what I was talking about, pretending to have no idea how Touch AC and Reflex saves are different things because HOW COULD THAT BE, was pretty fucking annoying.
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Post by Username17 »

Kaelik wrote:I think the Elder Brain should probably have a low touch AC, but I also don't want to call it Touch AC, Dodge is still a bad name (hence why I appended it with Touch AC) because it implies it is literally zero where it should instead be probably practically zero, but.... well still can't think of evil trees or Elder Brains having high Touch AC.
A Brain in a Jar might be small, far away, surrounded by floating psychic shields, in a storm wind, deep in shadow, or in many other ways hard to hit without actually moving around at all. Rings of Deflection or their equivalents are going to almost certainly be a thing, and they are going to make your thing that you don't want to call a Touch AC better, but they aren't going to involve you literally dodging any better (and possibly not at all).

Moving forward I just don't want to use active words for passive defenses. At all.

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Post by virgil »

Wasn't there a thing mentioned that you should use Fortitude equivalent against explosion, rather than Reflex? The iconics that weather a grenade are the tough. Something akin to "reflex" only comes into play for the character that puts themselves out of harms way by diving behind a barrier to shield themselves or placing something that can weather the blast in front of them; Fortitude vs Flat-Footed Fortitude, as it were.
Grek wrote:Tenacity: bull rush, grapple, disarm, explosions
Fortitude: poison, clouds, death magic
Dodge: rays, swords
Insight: illusions, feints
Perception: stealth, charms, arrows
Willpower: fear, domination, curses
Last edited by virgil on Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Wiseman »

Koumei wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Trolls are a weird edge case.
That's fair enough - I know a bunch of people who aesthetically like the idea of being trolls. They would most likely be happy with "Green ogres" as that ticks the boxes of "Big, green, dumb-but-able-to-speak, brutish". Some would want to specifically be Discworld trolls which are not green and are a very specific thing that in D&D would be an entirely different monster. Possibly Gargoyles. So for a lot of people, saying "No Trolls" would be a bummer, but if you can say "But this thing ticks all the boxes except forcing every enemy to carry fire" they're happy. Maybe assume all townsfolk haven't been reading their Monsterious Manuels, and have them go "Oo-ar, that thar be a troll!"

So you've kind of threaded that needle, but still: is "Fast Healing 1" a thing that is on the table? Or are you enforcing a thing where healing absolutely is finite and player four is forced at gunpoint to be a Healer or the players declare "That's our one encounter for the day, we're going home and healing. The dungeon can wait because you haven't prepared anything else"?
For me, at will or even passive healing is a godsend, because I'm lazy and it's easier to design encounters if I just assume that everyone's at full health at the start.

Heck, in a campaign I ran recently, a good portion of the player races have regeneration.

I should post the material up here sometime.
Last edited by Wiseman on Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DrPraetor
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Post by DrPraetor »

I agree with the goal here, but I'm having trouble coming up with a passive term for not-being-hit-with-something.

Elusive?

Tough(ness) - Explosions/Clouds (only), Poison (only), Death Spells (only), Bull Rush (2nd), Grapple (2nd), Swords (2nd), Rays (2nd), Arrows (2nd)
Elusive(ness) - Bull Rush (1st), Grapple (1st), Disarm (only), Swords (1st), Rays (1st), Arrows (1st),
Aware(ness) - Illusions, Fearsome Illusions (1st), Feints, Suggestions (1st),
Resolute(ness) - Fearsome Illusions (2nd), Suggestions (2nd), Domination, Fear, Curses

Most attacks either hit your Elusive and then hit your Tough, and many hit your Aware and then hit your Resolute. Anything that automatically hits goes straight to your Tough - but Evasion is a thing and it makes dodgy people better against fireballs.

Immobile beings have an Elusive defense but unless they're small and far away, or have a force field, it isn't very good.

Beings with no mind don't have Aware and Resolute defenses, but are immune to most attacks that hit them. If you have a sneak attack you can spam it at will against something that has no senses, thus it had better be pretty tough.

We just had a discussion in the Shadowrun thread about how a fixed damage track scales better? So, use one. The damage you take is dependent on degrees of success when the damage from the sword is compared against your Tough.

Is the above sufficient to give a reasonable spread of monster vs. defense matchups because that's what we're actually here to figure out. If four defenses are sufficient I say unto thee: do not add more.
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Post by Pariah Dog »

Evasion maybe?

As for Frank's examples of the brain in the jar.

Small:+Evasion -Toughness size modifiers?

Far away: Figured this would be a penalty on the ranged attack roll. You're attacking a target outside of close range of your weapon, subtract X from your attack roll.

Psychic Shields: Brain in a jar has used [Floating Psychic shields], it gets +X to This, that, and other defenses (toughness, evasion, willpower?)

In a storm wind: Figured this would be a penalty across the board. You're being buffeted by powerful winds, take -X to melee attacks and -Y to ranged attacks (if even allowed by the wind)

Deep shadow: Again probably a penalty to hit or a miss chance (I hate those personally) so -X to attack rolls or Y% miss chance.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

You could use 'ward' in the Verb sense. It could include blocking.

verb (used with object)
16. to avert, repel, or turn aside (danger, harm, an attack, an assailant, etc.) (usually followed by off): to ward off a blow; to ward off evil.

18. Archaic. to protect; guard.

That is, if you're not already using it in another context.
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Post by nockermensch »

The word you want for a passive defense that's kind of dodge/evasion is "slipperyness".
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Post by DrPraetor »

deaddmwalking wrote:You could use 'ward' in the Verb sense. It could include blocking.
That would be bad.

Look, D&D isn't realistic, but it doesn't take place in flat land, either. Creatures have properties that we recognize from our every-day experience, like being dodgy-and-fragile or tough-and-immobile.

Now you could declare that Barns have high bloodtinge and low ward, while Stirges have high ward and low bloodtinge; but, when a new monster shows up and shoots energy beams, does it target ward or bloodtinge and why and can I remember what difference this is supposed to make? See the thread that Grek killed for guidelines on which attacks work against ward and which attacks work against bloodtinge.
Barns and mind flayer spawning pools have high ward, because your mom belongs in them. Stirges and hobbits have high blood tinge, because they belong in your mom.
I won't say I don't fetishize numbers (SEVEN), but I'm not wedded on four defenses. I do think you shouldn't add defenses or energy types unless they expand the space of monster attacks or defenses thematically. If you've got enough defenses to define the monster manual, you are done.

I think four does it? You're going to need some "armor piercing" attacks regardless of how physical armor enters the combat math, which sorta gives you a fifth defense; you're going to want fire and lightning to be mostly the same but situationally different, so you sorta have an extra defense for however many energy types you allow.
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