Cyberpsychosis, Essence, and Approaching Transhumanism

[Username17]

Just that the road between "we can give deaf people some sort of audio sensation again" and "remember when people were scared of cyberears" isn't a ten minute walk.

I totally read this as "cyberbears, couldn't figure out how that fit in context, and thought it was metal as fuck, anyway.

True story: google searching Cyberbears produces 99% gay porn. Disappointing.


The correct google search is "cyborg bear".

Anyway...

Your cybernetic future will have a long, LONG road of scared people being preyed upon by fearmongers (at least it will if it's supposed to seem familiar to people the way the world of Shadowrun is), and a good worldbuilder will spend some time writing up exactly how that predation played out in their world. Because it will shape the way the public views augmentations for decades afterward.

Fear is definitely going to be a big driving factor in how it all plays out. But capitalists are not just incentivized to spread fear of adopting new technology in order to sell page clicks, they are also incentivized to spread fear of not adopting the new technology in order to sell the new technology. The classic example would be circumcision, which became ubiquitous in the United States and Canada in the early 20th century because of a widely distributed theory that it would stop masturbation. Yes. That is the actual reason why more than half of all males in the US have part of their penises chopped off while less than one in thirty males in Europe do. Because of a masturbation scare in the 1900s.

So you could have pretty much any piece of gadgetry become absolutely ubiquitous based on scare tactics that don't even make sense. Everyone has datajacks because people thought it made them less susceptible to basilisk hacks. It doesn't even matter whether it's true now or whether it was ever true. Once a form of augmentation becomes normalized, it's just normal and everyone gets one. Like how girls get their ears pierced because culturally that's just a form of body manipulation that girls do. Only it's like cyberears or some fucking thing.



-Username17

[maglag]

Unless you set your world several centuries beyond the point where somebody had their brain put into a 99% cybernetic body, people are still going to be a bit scuffy about prosthetics. Even if there's no actual metaphysical effect of doing so, other people are going to be prejudiced assholes, and that's going to at least give the augmented folk a bit of pause when it comes to interacting with the unaugmented folk.

There are people today getting rudimentary cybernetic eyes and implanted Hearing devices are a thing that exists as well . .
Other people get experimental prosthetic limbs that give a rudimentary sensory input when touching things.
As soon as the problems are worked out and they become actually BETTER than the fleshy bits, you can bet your left kidney people are going to want to have those installed . . if it does not turn out we have a specific limit on those things as well beyond our capability to make the replacement parts and to keep them running without too much of a hassle . .

hell, there are even self made idiots who implant magnets and rfid chips into their bodies to make themselves have an easier life or something . .

Glasses have existed for centuries now, and they still have plenty of social stigma attached.

To the point many people will rather use uncomfortable contact lenses or take their chances by burning their eyes and wallet with lasers rather than use glasses.

Even older, wigs are also prosthetics, but nowadays finding out that you're using artificial hair is still going to make you look like a lesser member of your species compared to somebody with glorious natural hair. Although a few centuries ago wigs were a sign of the high class in Europe back when people hardly bathed and wigs could be claimed to be superior by not attracting head lice.

EDIT: Frank raises a good point with ear piercings though, where it has basically become the "cool" option for girls/women all around the world and even plenty of men do it too. Fuck mandatory circumsion though, at least that one doesn't seem to have spread a lot.

[Stahlseele]

Glasses have existed for centuries now, and they still have plenty of social stigma attached.

They do? O.o

Even older, wigs are also prosthetics, but nowadays finding out that you're using artificial hair is still going to make you look like a lesser member of your species compared to somebody with glorious natural hair.

People do? o.O

I have not once in my 34 years of life as of next month noticed that.
Only if it looks stupid there will be merciless mockery, but that is not to do with the glasses or the wigs themselves but happens with natural stupid looking things as well . .

And yes, that was basically my point.
Once something better than what you have becomes available, people will want it. And at that point it will become normalized and at some point the norm . .

[phlapjackage]

Glasses have existed for centuries now, and they still have plenty of social stigma attached.

To the point many people will rather use uncomfortable contact lenses or take their chances by burning their eyes and wallet with lasers rather than use glasses.

I don't contest your point about social stigma in general, but I think your example of glasses here isn't correct. I'd wager that most people who choose contacts/surgery do it for quality of life, rather than to avoid any social stigma from wearing glasses. I had lasik, and it was definitely for QOL improvement reasons.

Hell, I even doubt there's ANY social stigma with glasses nowadays...rather it's the opposite, with glasses being signallers of wealth/education/good looks/etc. Girls here in China wear glasses with clear lenses (or NO lenses) because they think it looks good.

[Pariah Dog]

Glasses have existed for centuries now, and they still have plenty of social stigma attached.

They do? O.o

Even older, wigs are also prosthetics, but nowadays finding out that you're using artificial hair is still going to make you look like a lesser member of your species compared to somebody with glorious natural hair.

People do? o.O

I have not once in my 34 years of life as of next month noticed that.
Only if it looks stupid there will be merciless mockery, but that is not to do with the glasses or the wigs themselves but happens with natural stupid looking things as well . .

And yes, that was basically my point.
Once something better than what you have becomes available, people will want it. And at that point it will become normalized and at some point the norm . .

Can't tell if serious...

But yeah even at your age you should recognize the Glasses=NERD! stigma.



This protagonist of "Revenge of the Nerds"

And here is one of the jock antagonists "Ogre" after hes "gone nerd" after being thrown to the wolves by his fellow jocks in the sequel



Don't have as much material for the wigs one but there is the old canard about Trump wearing a bad toupee.

[maglag]

Glasses have existed for centuries now, and they still have plenty of social stigma attached.

They do? O.o

Even older, wigs are also prosthetics, but nowadays finding out that you're using artificial hair is still going to make you look like a lesser member of your species compared to somebody with glorious natural hair.

People do? o.O

I have not once in my 34 years of life as of next month noticed that.
Only if it looks stupid there will be merciless mockery, but that is not to do with the glasses or the wigs themselves but happens with natural stupid looking things as well . .

And yes, that was basically my point.
Once something better than what you have becomes available, people will want it. And at that point it will become normalized and at some point the norm . .

So you never read any comics or watched any movies? Because last time I checked 99% of the time any character with glasses will be a nerd/dork/intellectual. The cool action hero never wears glasses (or starts as a nerd/dork/intellectual then discards the glasses when they become action hero).

The supreme example would Superman who just needs to put on some glasses and then the whole world thinks he's just dorky Clark Kent. Because such a godlike being like superman would never wear glasses.

Then there's all the manga that has shy glasses girl and then somebody goes "if you just took off your glasses you would be really pretty" and then BLAM, she's miss popular.

As for wigs, what was the last time you saw an hero using those for anything but disguises? While it's a common trait for villains to use them, and then the wig comes off it's supposed to be humiliating for the villain (90's Lex Luthor come to mind after transfering his body to a clone that started decaying).

Glasses have existed for centuries now, and they still have plenty of social stigma attached.

To the point many people will rather use uncomfortable contact lenses or take their chances by burning their eyes and wallet with lasers rather than use glasses.

I don't contest your point about social stigma in general, but I think your example of glasses here isn't correct. I'd wager that most people who choose contacts/surgery do it for quality of life, rather than to avoid any social stigma from wearing glasses. I had lasik, and it was definitely for QOL improvement reasons.

Contacts certainly aren't for quality of life since they dry out one's eyes and are easier to lose. It's all for the looks.

Laser chirurgy may've gotten better over recent years, but I guess I'll always hold a grudge for that time it fucked up the eyes of my grand-grandmother.

Hell, I even doubt there's ANY social stigma with glasses nowadays...rather it's the opposite, with glasses being signallers of wealth/education/good looks/etc. Girls here in China wear glasses with clear lenses (or NO lenses) because they think it looks good.

That may be in the case in China now, but as you point out it's more of a sign of status, "I'm that rich/smart", give it another couple decades so that everybody can afford glasses in China and I'll bet they'll become dorky again here too.

Like being fat was considered a sign of status back when famine and plague were common so that only the rich and healthy could "afford" to get fat, to the point they were making and selling prosthetic bellies to wear under one's clothes. But nowadays most people can get fat no problem, so most people are trying to get super slim.

[Chamomile]

Revenge of the Nerds was 1984. People who saw that movie when they were the same age as the eighteen-year old college freshmen protagonists are now 52 years old. They're not exactly the cutting edge of what's hip and new.

[Pariah Dog]

Not setting the bar that high. Just setting it at "Have seen the movie at all"

[phlapjackage]

The cool action hero never wears glasses (or starts as a nerd/dork/intellectual then discards the glasses when they become action hero).

I'd say the cool action hero can't have glasses because of the main reason to get contacts/surgery: action and glasses don't mix very well

The supreme example would Superman who just needs to put on some glasses and then the whole world thinks he's just dorky Clark Kent. Because such a godlike being like superman would never wear glasses.

Then there's all the manga that has shy glasses girl and then somebody goes "if you just took off your glasses you would be really pretty" and then BLAM, she's miss popular.

As below, this is an old trope and/or for kids, not adults.

Contacts certainly aren't for quality of life since they dry out one's eyes and are easier to lose. It's all for the looks.

Yeah no way. It's a total quality of life improvement. Sure there are some downsides, but the advantages far outweigh them (imo). Probably could argue personal preferences here, but contacts definitely can be qol for people instead of looks. You only list dry eyes and losing them, which makes me think you've never worn glasses and contacts, because you really really should know the obvious benefits...

Laser chirurgy may've gotten better over recent years, but I guess I'll always hold a grudge for that time it fucked up the eyes of my grand-grandmother.

I guess you're admitting here it's just a personal grudge. For the other side of the coin, I had lasik in 2002 and no problems whatsoever and know several other people with the same. I recommend it to any/everyone, it's fucking amazing.

That may be in the case in China now, but as you point out it's more of a sign of status, "I'm that rich/smart", give it another couple decades so that everybody can afford glasses in China and I'll bet they'll become dorky again here too.

In China specifically, it's for looks. Glasses are dirt fucking cheap and in no way signal status, anyone who wants them can have them. Mostly "cute" girls are doing this.

Yeah sure trends come and go and come again. In my post I made sure to say "nowadays", I'm not talking about yesterday or tomorrow. But even "dorky" is sort of becoming "cool" now too, ya know?

Revenge of the Nerds was 1984. People who saw that movie when they were the same age as the eighteen-year old college freshmen protagonists are now 52 years old. They're not exactly the cutting edge of what's hip and new.

qft

[Chamomile]

Not setting the bar that high. Just setting it at "Have seen the movie at all"

Yes, that's the point. A plurality of people who have seen that movie were about the same age as its protagonists at its release. Each year younger (or older) significantly decreases the odds of having seen that movie. Anyone under forty can be pretty safely assumed to have never seen it, and if they have, they probably saw it years or decades as its release as a cultural artifact from before their time rather than as something they'd assume was relevant to current cultural mores. Revenge of the Nerds and its entire milieu are now firmly the Before Time, the 80s nerd as relevant to modern culture as the 50s housewife - sure, people are aware that the stereotype was at one point relevant, but it does not inform current trends.

[maglag]

The cool action hero never wears glasses (or starts as a nerd/dork/intellectual then discards the glasses when they become action hero).

I'd say the cool action hero can't have glasses because of the main reason to get contacts/surgery: action and glasses don't mix very well

That's the least valid reason you could mention. Fists+unarmored bodies don't mix in gunfights very well, but plenty of action heros defeat the armed/armored villains with their bare hands while wearing non-protective clothing.

Action heros will do whatever looks cool and actiony, and glasses just don't fit that.

The supreme example would Superman who just needs to put on some glasses and then the whole world thinks he's just dorky Clark Kent. Because such a godlike being like superman would never wear glasses.

Then there's all the manga that has shy glasses girl and then somebody goes "if you just took off your glasses you would be really pretty" and then BLAM, she's miss popular.

As below, this is an old trope and/or for kids, not adults.

Of course it's old, it's been around for centuries now.

Contacts certainly aren't for quality of life since they dry out one's eyes and are easier to lose. It's all for the looks.

Yeah no way. It's a total quality of life improvement. Sure there are some downsides, but the advantages far outweigh them (imo). Probably could argue personal preferences here, but contacts definitely can be qol for people instead of looks. You only list dry eyes and losing them, which makes me think you've never worn glasses and contacts, because you really really should know the obvious benefits...

By all means mention the advantages besides "other people won't notice I'm wearing vision-correcting prosthetics". I mentioned two disadvantages, only fair you mention at least two from all those reasons you claim "far outweight them".

I guess you're admitting here it's just a personal grudge. For the other side of the coin, I had lasik in 2002 and no problems whatsoever and know several other people with the same. I recommend it to any/everyone, it's fucking amazing.

Case in point, by your own word you'll rather burn your eyes and wallet with lasers than use contact lenses. Whatever happened to all those overwhelming advantages?

That may be in the case in China now, but as you point out it's more of a sign of status, "I'm that rich/smart", give it another couple decades so that everybody can afford glasses in China and I'll bet they'll become dorky again here too.

In China specifically, it's for looks. Glasses are dirt fucking cheap and in no way signal status, anyone who wants them can have them. Mostly "cute" girls are doing this.

Yeah sure trends come and go and come again. In my post I made sure to say "nowadays", I'm not talking about yesterday or tomorrow. But even "dorky" is sort of becoming "cool" now too, ya know?

Glasses are dirt fucking cheap just in the recent time. China's middle class has seen a massive jump in quality of life in quite a short span and things are/will be changing too fast to be considered any normal standard.

And nerd is becoming "cool" yes, but then even motherfucking Sheldon doesn't wear any glasses. Because he's the main protagonist of the show and he wearing glasses just wouldn't do despite being the super stereotypical nerd/dork show.

Sheldon's girlfriend and the housemate/sidekick, as secondary characters, totally wear glasses since they are supposed to be less cool than the main protagonist of the show.

[Username17]

Cool action heroes wear glasses all the time. Indeed, cool people in TV shows and movies wear glasses all the time. And they have since, well, forever.

1970s:


1980s:


1990s:


2000s:


2010s:


And so on. Now mostly people take those glasses off when they need to act because glasses interfere with the telegenicity of many expressions. There's a lot of acting you do with your face, and when part of it is covered that makes it harder to do a lot of acting craft shit. For the same reason, people in space movies take their helmets off as fast as they can and often faster than that - it's just harder to act for the people in the theater when you have a glare-inducing piece of glass in front of your face.

But it's not because "cool guys don't wear glasses." Cool guys wear cool glasses. They just take them off when the audience needs to see how furrowed their brow has become with worry or how wide their eyes have become with excitement.

-Username17

[deaddmwalking]

I have yet to see it, but I'm pretty sure Kingsman: the Secret Service features a protagonist that becomes cool/powerful when he gets glasses.

I am 39 and I have never needed glasses or contacts, nor have I ever had surgery to correct my vision. I'm certain that eventually I will, but my observations may not agree with people that have worn glasses for a long time. It is my impression that today, there is little or no stigma associated with wearing glasses. Most people recognize that wearing glasses is normal for most people at some time. When you're six and need powerful corrective lenses, you'll probably be in a small minority, but when you're sixty you'll be in the majority. I have thought that it might be worthwhile to get a pair of glasses that offer no corrective vision benefit because there is possibly a perception that people who wear glasses are 'smarter' than people that don't. It seems to me that wearing glasses could only be helpful for me professionally.

[phlapjackage]

That's the least valid reason you could mention. Fists+unarmored bodies don't mix in gunfights very well, but plenty of action heros defeat the armed/armored villains with their bare hands while wearing non-protective clothing.

I don't think it's the least valid reason...anyway, I was mostly trying to tie in to the reason not to wear glasses in real-life "action". They get in the way, are easily damaged, can hurt you when they get damaged, and when they get knocked off you go blind.

Action heros will do whatever looks cool and actiony, and glasses just don't fit that.

provably false, see Frank's/DDM's posts

Of course it's old, it's been around for centuries now.

Old as in not current, not observed anymore. Defunct. I think you know what I meant and are just being obtuse.

By all means mention the advantages besides "other people won't notice I'm wearing vision-correcting prosthetics". I mentioned two disadvantages, only fair you mention at least two from all those reasons you claim "far outweight them".

For almost any kind of physical activity, contacts/surgery are far superior. That's like 10000 reasons packaged as 1, but I'll give you that. Also they don't fog up in the cold. Bonus! They don't fog up or get blurry in the rain, they don't restrict your peripheral vision, they don't get all smudgy and need cleaning every hour, they don't slip off of your nose all the time, they don't make your ears sore, harder to damage...

Case in point, by your own word you'll rather burn your eyes and wallet with lasers than use contact lenses. Whatever happened to all those overwhelming advantages?

I see, you ARE being obtuse! On purpose? Anyway, yes I'd rather have lasik than wear contacts. Contacts have many advantages over glasses, and yet...surgery has even MORE advantages. Imagine that.

Glasses are dirt fucking cheap just in the recent time. China's middle class has seen a massive jump in quality of life in quite a short span and things are/will be changing too fast to be considered any normal standard.

Holy shit yes in the "recent time", like at least in the past 10 years! And that's exactly what I said, no social stigma in recent times, "nowadays". Not no social stigma of 30 years ago.

TLDR; you don't know what the fuck you're talking about with glasses/contacts/lasik (do you even wear bro?) and you keep misrepresenting or misinterpreting what I posted. So yeah

[phlapjackage]

burning their eyes and wallet with lasers

Laser chirurgy may've gotten better over recent years

you'll rather burn your eyes and wallet with lasers

So I've noticed you seem to really have a hate-on for laser eye surgery. Besides the obvious (using "chirugy" to make it sound archaic when it's actually really technical, using "burning" as if that's a bad thing and no other types of medical procedure burn things...), I'm going to point out how wrong your "burning your wallet" refrain is.

I had lasik in 2002 and it cost a total of about $2200. It could've been cheaper but a) I didn't feel this was something to cheap-out on, and b) my vision was so bad it was this expensive for my vision level. I've had no eye-care related costs since then except the odd checkup to make sure I don't have glaucoma or eye diseases or whatever. So over the past ~15 years, my total eye-care costs have totalled $2200.

It's been so long that I don't remember what I was paying for contacts or glasses every year. But less than $150 a year is not "burning your wallet", even disregarding what a person WOULD be paying every year for glasses and prescription sunglasses and maybe some sports goggles and oh shit I lost my glasses and now I need another pair...

Look, if lasers scare you it's ok to admit it. There's tons of other non-laser options for vision correction surgery...

[Grek]

Going out on a limb here and guessing that maglag has glasses but is hella insecure about it.

[shinimasu]

Or has just never seen any of the Kingsman moves, or played Bayonetta, or hell even Harry Potter. I'd hesitate to call him an action hero, but the kid plays wizard football and outruns dragons on his sweet sports car broomstick. Hermione, who is notably glasses free, is the token nerd.

Glasses WERE a social stigma, maybe still are to some especially petty people, and sure it's still kind of "nerd" coded. But Nerd is itself becoming less of a pejorative as we all slowly realize that the people who build and program our robots will one day become the master race.

[Whipstitch]

Daily disposable contact lenses are actually pretty sweet so long as you're not predisposed to dry eyes. My insurance covers most of the cost, there's no cleaning supplies involved and since I'm routinely getting new lenses mailed to me it's waaaay easier to get my prescription regularly tweaked since I'm not fronting the cost of new frames at any point. I've got an old out-of-date pair of glasses for stumbling around the house at night but otherwise contacts>glasses.

[Hadanelith]

Forget laser eye surgery, go properly cyber: implantable contact lenses are a thing now. My wife got them after it was determined that she couldn't have laser surgery because her eyes were just *that bad* (there wasn't enough material to burn through to reshape things properly). Implantable lenses (which, to be clear (because the name isn't) are tiny lenses slid in behind your natural lens) have made her vision slightly better than mine, and I have 20/20 vision! Apparently, the same tech could be used augmentatively, in people with healthy vision, but that's a level of elective surgery the FDA isn't comfortable with.

[Stahlseele]

Right, i had forgotten about the bonus lenses stuff . .
I had read about that a few months or so ago i think..
Case in point there already.
Imagine people like professional sports shooters getting them.
Or anybody else where superior vision gets you an edge over the competition.
If cheap enough, they could become standard issue with military and security forces at some point.

[Pariah Dog]

Actually Frank, cool action heroes where Sunglasses. Even your examples show every one of those in sunglasses.

Chamomile, the stereotype even still holds true even in more current media. For example Arrow, the nerdy computer girl, Felicity the nerd superhero that is also an Olympic level athlete, Mr Terrific, the nerdy hacker girl from the first half of the season Alena(I think?) as well as the nerdy computer hacker villain from the first half of the season Cayden, before he was replaced with "Tony Montana with the serial numbers filed off", hell 3 of those 4 even have the stereotypical "thick black frame" glasses associated with nerds. So its still more of a cultural artifact than that.

[Chamomile]

So in the "glasses are exclusively nerdy" corner you've got characters from TV shows which, with the exception of Arrow, I have never even heard of until just now, none of whom sound particularly uncool, just good at computers, and one of whom is also an Olympic level athlete which breaks the nerd stereotype right in half, and meanwhile you have conspicuously failed to notice Shinimasu's reference to Kingsman, Bayonetta, and Harry Potter despite the seven hour gap between their post and yours.

[Pariah Dog]

Mr. Terrific the Olympic Level Athlete has several "uncool nerd moments" with him rambling or being socially awkward, these are offset but him doing awesome shit with his "Do whatever I need them to spheres" or running and jumping and punching out mooks.

Kingsman the whole thing is they look like unassuming gentlemen/nerds despite being highly trained James Bond types whose glasses as well as the rest of their apparel contains James Bond level gadgets (bulletproof umbrellas, rings that contain poison pills, an exploding lighers)

Bayonetta, I'll give you mostly due to unfamiliarity with the character (came on a console I do not own, I know its something like she fights demons while giving off the whole dominatrix fetish but thats about it)

Harry was literally an unloved nerd living in a closet under the stairs until he got whisked away to a land of wizards where everyone loves him except for Snape whose basically a brooding asshole until his redemption bit, the kid from the bully house because hey we need a bully in this formula, and the Skeletor with no nose that actually wants to kill him.

[erik]

Forget laser eye surgery, go properly cyber: implantable contact lenses are a thing now.

LASIK is getting improvements as well. I work in an ophthalmology office and with the latest LASIK tech we're getting about 70% of patients better than 20/20 when aiming for distance if I recall correctly. My wife had it done last year and she was one letter off from being 20/10 at her 1 year follow-up.

There's some neat tech being developed for accommodating lenses which have a potential for augmentation and digital displays, but I'm not holding my breath. Best would be medical (non-surgical) therapy to prevent cataracts and presbyopia also. Then have external projectors that shine directly onto the retina.

And hate to break it to the youngins, but at some point after age 40 your ability to change point of focus between near and far goes way down. So if you have good distance vision then you're gonna need reading glasses to see well close up. So characters as they get older, are gonna be using glasses one way or another (unless they do well with specialty lenses from cataract surgery).


edit:

Harry was literally an unloved nerd living in a closet under the stairs

Um, can you name one thing about Harry that makes him a nerd, other than because he wears glasses? Being abused doesn't make you a nerd.

[Mask_De_H]

Yo Dog, just because you self-identify with the uncool nerd thing super hard, given what I've seen of your posts (and your handle) doesn't discount the other examples given. Sunglasses are still glasses, Harry Potter is the Chosen One in a cuckoo fantasy, Bayo has no nerd tells, and specs mean "nondescript" instead of "shove in lockers" by your own admission in Kingsman.

It's specifically the big honking 50s military, black rimmed Buddy Holly glasses that coded "pariah nerd" in the 80s. By the mid 2000s, hipster culture turned those into a desirable fashion item because being a nerd was marketable cool.

What you feel is true to you, but it's not true culturally. It hasn't been true culturally for over a decade, at least.