Alt-white wolf?

[DSMatticus]

4chan was, from the very start, a haven for people who worshipped edge in its most puerile, least sophisticated forms - vulgarity satirizing nothing, not even itself. There may have been some other people there trying to do the whole 'culture is neat, we should have some' thing, but it did not take long for all that to go up in flames. The timeline is basically this:

4chan 2008: "Ironic racism is funny because it's edgy!"

4chan 2011: "Oh god, where did all these racists come from? Maybe if we give them their own board they'll leave the rest of the site alone."

4chan 2015: "It's not working! Abandon ship, abandon ship!"

4chan 2016: "Kill the libtards and the darkies. Kill the libtards and the darkies. Kill the libtards and the darkies. Hey, is it time to kill the libtards and the darkies yet?" "No, not yet. Just keep chanting so your hateboner is ready when the time comes."

[Username17]

Of course Achilli and ReinHagen were a couple edgelords back then! Of course they were clueless! And of course whathever thing they happened to write would be highly offensive edgelord shit! THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE NINETIES! Highly offensive edgelord shit!

Whining about it over twenty years post-hoc is like the idiots who complained back then that Duke Nuken Forever was "outdated and clueless," or people who watch Jurassic World and then complaining it's "too unrealistic."

Now, can nazis grab vampire and use it for their cause? Sure, it's highly possible, the product is about playing an awful elite of monsters that engages in monster behavior, so of course it's going to resonate with them, but if we all know neither ReinHagen nor Achilli were confirmed nazis back then, then we can't hold them and Vampire any more accountable for whatever nazis do with their game than we can hold Buddhism for the creation of the cross that everyone else knows as the swastika, nor the Asatru religion for the creation of the Sowilo rune.

Uh, no one gives a shit what Rein * Hagen's politics were back in the 90s. The point is that right now he's a FOX-News addled old man who yells at clouds and writes tirades about how "SJWs" and "Leftists" are ruining everything. He took several years off of game design completely in order to run off to Eastern Europe and write ultra-nationalist propaganda for right wing governments. That is a think that actually happened. Regardless of what we think about the ups and downs of the Dotmeister's work from a quarter century ago, the reality is that today he's a Neo-Nazi. He spent several years writing eliminationist ethno-nationalist propaganda for the far right in Georgia (the country). And everything he's said on social media and in interviews and indirectly with his abortive attempt to launch a game with the exciting premise "What if all the Slavs in Abkhazia were actually sub-human monsters that you needed to exterminate to make the land pure for Caucasian people?" show him as a man who is a true believer in all the horrible things he has said and done in the last 12 years or so. I know it sounds completely over the top, but that was actually the real premise of a game he tried to make for a while.

Now companies are allowed to have employees whose politics are heinous. They are even allowed to have horrible people in creative or outreach roles, provided they are able to do their fucking job without getting their vile shit all over the company's product. But NuNu White Wolf went beyond the normal bounds of corporate lack of accountability. They didn't just say that Rein * Hagen and Shitmuffin were their own people and could do or say whatever they wanted on their own time because NuNu White Wolf doesn't police the activities of its freelancers when they weren't making stuff for one of the game lines. That would have been sufficient to draw a line between the company and the Dotmeister's bizarre and almost unbelievable tirades in favor of Eastern European ethnic cleansing. But what they did instead was announce that they stood by these people in other contexts and that their accusers were liars. They took ownership of the hateful rhetoric and vile behavior when they didn't have to. When indeed, there was no particular reason to.

Remember, Onyx Path had an actual child molester write Beast. And while I have never liked or respected Onyx Path, we don't particularly think that Onyx Path is a child-molesting company, because they didn't put out a press release about how they stood behind all the actions of the child molester after people raised a stink about it. They just moved on. That's all a company has to do. NuNu White Wolf did not do that.

So the Dotmeister moved to the actual Caucuses so that he could write propaganda screeds in favor of real Caucasians doing real ethnic cleansing on minorities. That is a thing that actually happened, because we are in the dumbest time line. And companies can still hire Rein * Hagen to do various kinds of work for them without being tainted by that episode because that is how contract work and limited liability corporations work. You buy someone's work in a specific context, not an approval of everything they've ever done. But NuNu White Wolf wasn't satisfied with that. They didn't just hire Rein * Hagen to do some celebrity game design to show he could still write a compelling piece of Vampire flash fiction 25 years later. They voluntarily associated themselves with Rein * Hagen the man. The man of today. The guy who writes pro-genocide rants and accuses anti-Nazi protesters of being "communists."

-Username17

[nockermensch]

Re: /pol/

Online communities will end being defined and dominated by the most controversial discourse that's tolerated there. 4chan has genuinely interesting boards for anime, videogames, RPGs and Otaku culture discussions, but there's about 1 billion other online forums people can go to talk about these things.

However, displays of racism and sexism will get posters turned into pariahs or outright ejected from most places of the Internet, so it should surprise absolutely noone that an anonymous board with an "anything goes" stance about these themes will have their racist/sexist population just rise. A non-zero number of bigots will join when they hear that the place won't kick them out, a non-zero number of non-bigots will quit in disgust, and the process will then repeat.

See also: The Gaming Den and Communism openly calling each other cocksuckers instead of resorting to passive-aggressive insults.

[Whipstitch]

Trigger warnings are ludicrous to them because rape victims aren't real victims.

Yeah, the part that really exposes the meme's origins as just naked cruelty is when people argue that it's OK to actively trigger the PTSD lolcows because they're just being irrational as if decent people didn't already understand that the "D" in PTSD stands for disorder.

[Prak]

But it certainly doesn't hurt to at least try and cover the big ones. Rape is a fucking epidemic. It's something that happens to roughly 1 in 5 women. We know it happens to roughly 1 in 5 women because that's about the number of women who claim to be raped and that's about the number of rapes you can trick men into admitting to by not explicitly saying the word rape.

I'm genuinely surprised the number is that low. I sometimes wonder if I know any women, at least cis women, who haven't had some kind of experience being raped, sexually assaulted, or at "least" molested.

I mean, fuck, that's kinda why I'm on the side of "yeah, lets use some fucking content warnings," because the majority of cis women in my friend group benefit from them.

[shlominus]

because the number of unreported cases is incredibly high in this field, there can only ever be an estimation of the actual numbers. "1 in 5" is an estimation of actual rape victims, if you add other forms of sexual assault or harassment the numbers would be substantially higher. this might explain your "surprise".

[Thaluikhain]

Eh, I'm sure there's lots of people that don't know the roots of "triggered", because the people behind it are very good at what they do. There's a totally edgy young guy I see at my local GW that uses that term in a mocking way that I'm pretty sure doesn't understand the context (though wouldn't likely listen if it was explained). Doesn't use it for SJWs or the like, just GW's stupid rules that don't make logical sense to him.

Thing is, I'm pretty sure that he's not involved in publishing any RPGs, for which the bar should be set somewhere different to "can't remember the rules for Khorne Daemons". Hell, for that matter, he's one person, not a publishing company, which you'd expect to be better at catching that sort of thing.

[saithorthepyro]

On my two cents, while the WW treatment of the author of that piece is bad, same with continued association with Zak S and Rein*Hagen. Their decision to fully back them on non-company views when they are contractors seems just weird for a company to do with two individuals who sound like they are divisive at best.

As for the argument over Triggered as a word/meme/joke/whatever, the only place I've heard of the word was a couple of abridged series, and while for all I know I'll soon get a link proving TFS is comprised of alt-right racists, for right now I'm going to just guess there were some tone-deaf jokes.

Also, why is it Rein*Hagen? Did he legally change his name to have an asterisk in the middle?

[nockermensch]

Also, why is it Rein*Hagen? Did he legally change his name to have an asterisk in the middle?

Wait, do you mean people don't pronounce his name out loud as "Rein dot Hagen"? I'm not serious

[schpeelah]

Also, why is it Rein*Hagen? Did he legally change his name to have an asterisk in the middle?

He changed his name to have a dot in it, as in "Rein•Hagen"

When asked about the meaning and pronunciation of the dot in his last name, Rein•Hagen once reportedly replied, "It's unpronounceable, and symbolizes how meaningless are the labels that we attach to ourselves." It is interesting, however, that the country he now lives in, Georgia, uses the • as a comma, thereby making it meaning-laden. Mark no longer uses the dot in his name, replacing it with a more pedestrian hyphen.

We also call him the Dotmeister for this reason.

[Username17]

As for the argument over Triggered as a word/meme/joke/whatever, the only place I've heard of the word was a couple of abridged series, and while for all I know I'll soon get a link proving TFS is comprised of alt-right racists, for right now I'm going to just guess there were some tone-deaf jokes.

Team 4 Star makes a lot of jokes about how various things in the original Japanese shows are fairly offensive in various contexts. I mean, Mr. Popo is a dude in black face. Mr. Satan is actually named Satan. So I couldn't really tell you what the context of the jokes in question are. But it's entirely possible that their use of "triggered" is in the context of meta-commentary on things which are offensive in one or another of their original forms (recall also that some of the changes made in English dubs are spectacularly bad ideas on their own merits).

But of course, it's also possible that Team 4 Star just made a joke that's in really bad taste. But the thing is: it's comedy, and as I previously conceded offensive jokes are often funny. That doesn't make them "not offensive" and taking offense at an offensive joke isn't wrong. But they can be funny nonetheless, and a comedian is within their rights to try to push that boundary and tell jokes that are offensive. There are some truly hilarious racist, sexist, and ableist jokes out there, and it's not hard to understand why a comedian would attempt to make new ones - even in the face of absolutely certainly pissing some people off.

However, it's important to remember that NuNu White Wolf doesn't have that excuse. Their stuff is "serious." The irreverent splatter punk comedy monster game is Nightlife. World of Darkness takes itself seriously. So having the Brujah clan weakness name be a joke of any kind would be tonally wrong even if the joke was itself something that people wouldn't take exception to. So it's not that we're being asked to permit NuNuWhite Wolf the liberty of offending our sensibilities in the service of a joke. It's that we're being asked to permit NuNuWhite Wolf the liberty of putting a joke where it doesn't belong in the service of being offensive. The cost is breaking the serious tone of Gothic Horror with an out-of-place joke, the payoff is supposed to be the part where they insulted and trivialized the plight of rape victims. High fives all around.

-Username17

[maglag]

As for the argument over Triggered as a word/meme/joke/whatever, the only place I've heard of the word was a couple of abridged series, and while for all I know I'll soon get a link proving TFS is comprised of alt-right racists, for right now I'm going to just guess there were some tone-deaf jokes.

Team 4 Star makes a lot of jokes about how various things in the original Japanese shows are fairly offensive in various contexts. I mean, Mr. Popo is a dude in black face. Mr. Satan is actually named Satan. So I couldn't really tell you what the context of the jokes in question are. But it's entirely possible that their use of "triggered" is in the context of meta-commentary on things which are offensive in one or another of their original forms (recall also that some of the changes made in English dubs are spectacularly bad ideas on their own merits).

But of course, it's also possible that Team 4 Star just made a joke that's in really bad taste. But the thing is: it's comedy, and as I previously conceded offensive jokes are often funny. That doesn't make them "not offensive" and taking offense at an offensive joke isn't wrong. But they can be funny nonetheless, and a comedian is within their rights to try to push that boundary and tell jokes that are offensive. There are some truly hilarious racist, sexist, and ableist jokes out there, and it's not hard to understand why a comedian would attempt to make new ones - even in the face of absolutely certainly pissing some people off.

However, it's important to remember that NuNu White Wolf doesn't have that excuse. Their stuff is "serious."

So 4chan and Knowyourmeme are also supposed to be serious stuff? Because I could've sworn they're precisely comedy/joke/porn sites, at the very least something not something to be taken seriously.

[MGuy]

Frank has been pretty clear. It doesn't matter if a thing is supposed to be taken seriously to be considered offensive. Really anything can be offensive to anyone. I don't think that matters but it's true. What does matter is what The general public thinks. The general public doesn't consider 'triggered' to be an offensive term just like the general public didn't think 'retarded' was particularly offensive early on in my lifetime. It might change but, considering how things are now, I don't think that's going to happen.

[Ignimortis]

As for the argument over Triggered as a word/meme/joke/whatever, the only place I've heard of the word was a couple of abridged series, and while for all I know I'll soon get a link proving TFS is comprised of alt-right racists, for right now I'm going to just guess there were some tone-deaf jokes.

Team 4 Star makes a lot of jokes about how various things in the original Japanese shows are fairly offensive in various contexts. I mean, Mr. Popo is a dude in black face. Mr. Satan is actually named Satan. So I couldn't really tell you what the context of the jokes in question are. But it's entirely possible that their use of "triggered" is in the context of meta-commentary on things which are offensive in one or another of their original forms (recall also that some of the changes made in English dubs are spectacularly bad ideas on their own merits).

But of course, it's also possible that Team 4 Star just made a joke that's in really bad taste. But the thing is: it's comedy, and as I previously conceded offensive jokes are often funny. That doesn't make them "not offensive" and taking offense at an offensive joke isn't wrong. But they can be funny nonetheless, and a comedian is within their rights to try to push that boundary and tell jokes that are offensive. There are some truly hilarious racist, sexist, and ableist jokes out there, and it's not hard to understand why a comedian would attempt to make new ones - even in the face of absolutely certainly pissing some people off.
-Username17

They made Rip van Winkle from Hellsing a top-grade tumblrina. The whole joke was built around the term "feminazi" and how their interpretation of Alucard was incredibly crass and at the same point quite egalitarian in his approach - he would make fun of anything and anyone, even himself.

[Chamomile]

It's worth noting that Alucard's verbal takedown of Rip van Winkle immediately before killing her hinges on the fact that her assumptions about him were baseless, most notably that he's genderbent himself (themself?) in the past. It draws a pretty strong distinction between "ha ha, can you believe Tumblr thinks women are people" and "ha ha, can you believe how terrible Tumblr is at advancing the causes they claim to be so fervently in support of?"

[Omegonthesane]

As for the argument over Triggered as a word/meme/joke/whatever, the only place I've heard of the word was a couple of abridged series, and while for all I know I'll soon get a link proving TFS is comprised of alt-right racists, for right now I'm going to just guess there were some tone-deaf jokes.

Team 4 Star makes a lot of jokes about how various things in the original Japanese shows are fairly offensive in various contexts. I mean, Mr. Popo is a dude in black face. Mr. Satan is actually named Satan. So I couldn't really tell you what the context of the jokes in question are. But it's entirely possible that their use of "triggered" is in the context of meta-commentary on things which are offensive in one or another of their original forms (recall also that some of the changes made in English dubs are spectacularly bad ideas on their own merits).

But of course, it's also possible that Team 4 Star just made a joke that's in really bad taste. But the thing is: it's comedy, and as I previously conceded offensive jokes are often funny. That doesn't make them "not offensive" and taking offense at an offensive joke isn't wrong. But they can be funny nonetheless, and a comedian is within their rights to try to push that boundary and tell jokes that are offensive. There are some truly hilarious racist, sexist, and ableist jokes out there, and it's not hard to understand why a comedian would attempt to make new ones - even in the face of absolutely certainly pissing some people off.

However, it's important to remember that NuNu White Wolf doesn't have that excuse. Their stuff is "serious."

So 4chan and Knowyourmeme are also supposed to be serious stuff? Because I could've sworn they're precisely comedy/joke/porn sites, at the very least something not something to be taken seriously.

At no point in this thread has an argument been made that hinges on 4chan or KYM being 100% serious, or would be in any way undermined by them being irreverent in tone. Your non-sequitur is just that.

[Dogbert]

My... God...

Ok, the things I've read about Reinhagen make it hard to separate the art from the artist.

[Username17]

My... God...

Ok, the things I've read about Reinhagen make it hard to separate the art from the artist.

The thing is that White Wolf was always writing problematic and racially insensitive stuff. We've even done some OSSRs about White Wolf's problematic portrayal of Africans. We haven't done an OSSR about World of Darkness: Gypsies, because the work for that would just be Ancient History and I staring at the pages we were reviewing and shouting "What the fuck!?" over and over again. That book is seriously bad. For starters, it's called "World of Darkness: Gypsies." It's basically 120 pages of blood libel.

And that's... not OK exactly, but not something that we asked to burn down White Wolf over. Not because those weren't poor choices, but precisely because they were poor choices. By individuals. We ask openly why Teeuwynn Woodruff (the person who actually wrote World of Darkness: Gypsies) was able to ever work again in the industry after a fuckup of that magnitude, but the company is a corporate entity. The blame for World of Darkness: Gypsies falls on the people who were involved, but most of the people in the company were not.

The reason we went from "Hey, this person who did some freelance work for White Wolf is a shitty person" to "Hey, maybe NuNu White Wolf is a shitty fucking company that actively supports shitty things" is that the company made official announcements that they backed their freelancers in internet dramas that were completely unrelated to the workings of the company. That's not usual behavior for a company, and removes the layer of corporate lack of accountability. Normally we assign blame for bad choices made by people in a company to the people in the company who made them. But by having the company lend its name to fighting internet battles on behalf of shitty people that have nothing to do with the company's interests or products we assign blame for the external vices of those individuals to the company as a whole.

Lots of offensive stuff was printed under a White Wolf imprint in the fifteen years that company actually existed. But the new bunch of fuckups who own the brand went the extra mile and took ownership of all the offensive shit they printed and even offensive shit that various freelancers who did piece work for them did on their own fucking time. There was no reason for that. And the results are that we are much less sympathetic to the company. The line between the artist and the company has been blurred by the company.

So Matt McFarland wrote some stuff for Onyx Path, and he molested children. Onyx Path didn't come out and say that the people who accused him of molesting children were lying liars and they stood by him 100%. They didn't comment on the scandal at all, they just... stopped hiring him as a freelancer to write material for their pseudo-published print on demand shovelware projects. And in this era of rampant corporate irresponsibility, that's literally all anyone asks you to do. Heck, it's more than what people ask you to do, since corporations are totally allowed to hire known criminals to work in other fields. If Onyx Path had continued to hire Matt McFarland to write stuff that wasn't about abusers and molesting children, that would have been defensible. Cutting all future ties was probably wise, but by no means required.

This does stand in stark contrast to NuNu White Wolf's behavior. The new owners of the IP are horrible people who actively support horrible people and horrible actions by those horrible people. And bizarrely, they want you to know it. And they want you to know that they are horrible and support horrible people and things as a company, not as individuals who happen to work for a company. It's hateful of course, but beyond that it is incomprehensible to me from a marketing standpoint. Why bother telling your prospective fanbase that you're taking sides in modern social conflicts at all? And if you are going to do so, why take the side that is clearly wicked and cruel?

-Username17

[OgreBattle]

Where can I find out about Mark Hagen's white power writings?

[Prak]

There's also the, usually meaningless, but in White Wolf's case worth remembering, difference between being offensive out of ignorance, and offensive out of malice, or at least intent.

I'm willing to give Old White Wolf the benefit of the doubt on just being a bunch of clueless fucking white guys when they wrote The Ebony Court, or basically anything about Asia. Maybe whatisname who wrote WoD:Gypsies was another ignorant white guy, it was published in '94, not precisely a bellwether year for enlightened attitudes about the Roma. Fuck, the RDJ Sherlock Holmes movies from not even a decade ago aren't exactly enlightened.

Now, is pretty much everything OWW wrote about non-Western areas and people horribly offensive? Yes. It being offensive out of ignorance doesn't change that, it just means that instead of being horrible racists, they were insensitive ignorant white guys who couldn't be arsed to do some real research, or even "hey, anyone know a person of Roma descent or from Africa who wants to be a paid consultant?"

NuNuWW, on the other hand... is at least being intentionally offensive because they think it's edgy and perhaps funny.

Ignorant pricks who don't have the sensitivity to consider doing some real research can be educated, while trolling edgelords have to be taught to care about people who aren't them before you can educate them about how they were being offensive.

[Username17]

What does matter is what The general public thinks. The general public doesn't consider 'triggered' to be an offensive term just like the general public didn't think 'retarded' was particularly offensive early on in my lifetime.

Actually, this is completely wrong. Like, I'm pretty sure that you're wrong on the substance of this argument, in that I think there's very good evidence that the majority of people who use the term are using it as part of a sadistic campaign of harassment targeting the defenseless and intended to keep "uppity" women and minorities "in their place." I think the evidence for that is very strong, what with the fact that Google tells me the term was thrown about in internet conversations an order of magnitude more often after the launching of the "Donald Trump For President: Fuck Your Feelings" campaign. And yes, that was a real thing, and no they weren't kidding.

But beyond that, your argument is fundamentally wrong in structure. Appeals to majority are always a suspect form of argumentation. Like, even if the majority believes something to be true that doesn't mean they are right. Because like, Galileo and shit. But appeals to majority are always and forever completely fucking meaningless against the charge that a term of insult against a minority is offensive.

Lets take the ur example: NIG-GER. It's so offensive that the board won't even let me write it without a gap. But it's a term of aggression only towards people of relatively recent African decent. 12.6% of Americans are African Americans, so for the majority of people, it's not an insulting term to them. Now, we can all recognize that it's a horrible thing to say to a black person because our society went through decades of riots and shit over it. But the fact remains that people still use it a lot and the term isn't directly offensive to a super majority of the population.

When it comes to insults that are targeted against a smaller portion of the population, like Camel Jockey or [EDITED], even less people are directly targeted. Almost 99% of the US population are not Arab-descended, so why should they be offended by "Camel-Jockey?" The answer of course, is empathy. I am not an Arab, but I'm still pissed off when Arab Americans are called Camel-Jockeys because of empathy - a connection by which I can sympathize with the victim of aggression that is not directed at me.

So a campaign of harassment against rape victims is only literally targeted against about 10% of the adult population. But you should still be offended by that because you should be able to have empathy for the victims of those aggressions.

-Username17

[Chamomile]

The difference between accidental, thoughtless, and malicious bigotry are only meaningless if you have no intentions of actually fixing the problem. Accidental bigotry can be fixed as easily as sitting down and explaining to someone why this thing is bad. Being an asshole about it is strictly counterproductive.

Thoughtless bigotry can be fixed by making the bigotry costly and by making learning what is and isn't offensive as easy and convenient as possible, thus both increasing the cost of remaining as they are and decreasing the cost to changing. Almost by definition, thoughtless bigots are only that way because they can't be bothered to change, so making it easy for them to change makes them more likely to do so.

Malicious bigotry can only be fixed by attaching a sufficiently steep cost to their bigotry that they no longer engage in it because that cost is higher than what they're willing to pay. You also need to make that cost omnipresent, because if they can be bigoted in place A but not in place B, they're just gonna go to place A, which will be full of other bigots, which will make it easier for them to get organized. Pushing bigots out of specific locations has the immediate beneficial effect of not having any bigots immediately in your vicinity, but the long term effect that the total number of bigots is the same but now they're all networking with each other. They can't be negotiated with, nor can they be persuaded by a good cop/bad cop approach, nor is the problem long-term solved just because you managed to get them to temporarily shut up in a specific place. You do occasionally get redemption stories about malicious bigots who stop being so bigoted, but generally speaking malicious bigots cannot be persuaded and must instead be incapacitated.

Old White Wolf were thoughtless bigots. You can persuade them to change if you make enough trouble for them to get their attention and then make the solution of "learn what has people upset and stop doing it" easier to do than other potential solutions. Doubleplus new White Wolf are malicious bigots, probably less because of dedication to specific fascist causes and more because you can't tell me what to do, Mom, but still, specifically dedicated to being offensive, which means they will keep doing that until the cost becomes too high for them to pay.

[MGuy]

Frank I'm really sure you know what I was saying. Let me put it another way. Right now, only a small set of people care about where the word 'triggered' came from so 'your' personal outrage at its use means very little. It will mean very little, no matter how outraged you personally are, until the general public 'also' becomes outraged about it. I made no argument as to the 'truth' of your personal take on how offensive the word is. It's more an observation that your outrage is not important.

[Username17]

Frank I'm really sure you know what I was saying. Let me put it another way. Right now, only a small set of people care about where the word 'triggered' came from so 'your' personal outrage at its use means very little.

Of course I know what you're saying. You're saying that we shouldn't get upset about the use of the word "Gypsies" to refer to Romany people, because few people are Romany and few people understand or care about Antiziganism.

You. Are. Wrong.

You are categorically and structurally wrong. Things are not offensive because they offend the majority. They are offensive because they offend the people they are aimed at.

-Username17

[MGuy]

Frank I'm really sure you know what I was saying. Let me put it another way. Right now, only a small set of people care about where the word 'triggered' came from so 'your' personal outrage at its use means very little.

Of course I know what you're saying. You're saying that we shouldn't get upset about the use of the word "Gypsies" to refer to Romany people, because few people are Romany and few people understand or care about Antiziganism.

You. Are. Wrong.

You are categorically and structurally wrong. Things are not offensive because they offend the majority. They are offensive because they offend the people they are aimed at.

-Username17

Well no... That's not what I'm saying. So no... you don't know what I'm saying. I told you what I was saying. Trying to squeeze out something completely different is an odd thing to do.