Numenera - Monte Cook's new thing

[Voss]

And so the mechanics that are there are the kinds of things that, you know, so much of the time I feel like players in a particular game, you have to tell a story in spite of the rules. Like the dice roll indicates something that doesn’t really work for what’s supposed to happen, or the character ability doesn’t really let the character do what he wants to do. So I wanted to create a ruleset that didn’t have the rules get in the way. So that’s why we have mechanics like GM intrusion or player effort, where you can really shape what’s going on within the bounds of the rules as opposed to, “Well, let’s pretend that rule didn’t exist for a minute.”

While I'm in favour of the rules not getting in the way of roleplaying, saying fuck the dice I got a story to tell, doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

Neither do the references to a 'GM-focused' game.

MC: Numenera has very much a grown out of the idea that this is the way that I want to play a roleplaying game. I want to be sitting at the table with my friends and talking about things. We’re not looking things up in rulebooks. As the gamemaster I’m not keeping track of a whole bunch of complicated stats or rolling dice and looking up tables. I’m talking to you and we’re interacting and you’re talking back to me and we’re creating a story together.

SG: And standing behind me and making me nervous. You can walk around [when you run] Numenera. The GM can move around the table and interact with each person, and when Monte does it it’s like, “Oh, my poor character…”

Playing with Monte sounds really, really, annoying. Both for personal space intrusions (which I find really annoying), and for the constant stream of making shit up rather than playing a game.

[phlapjackage]

And so the mechanics that are there are the kinds of things that, you know, so much of the time I feel like players in a particular game, you have to tell a story in spite of the rules. Like the dice roll indicates something that doesn’t really work for what’s supposed to happen, or the character ability doesn’t really let the character do what he wants to do. So I wanted to create a ruleset that didn’t have the rules get in the way. So that’s why we have mechanics like GM intrusion or player effort, where you can really shape what’s going on within the bounds of the rules as opposed to, “Well, let’s pretend that rule didn’t exist for a minute.”

While I'm in favour of the rules not getting in the way of roleplaying, saying fuck the dice I got a story to tell, doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

There's so much wrong with his quote. When things are supposed to happen, you're not playing a game anymore. Why roll the dice at all, if the "story" is preordained and overrides what the dice say?

If you have to pretend a rule doesn't exist, maybe you should change the actual rule instead of creating these weird-ass workarounds. Treating the symptoms and not the cause, etc..

"You have to tell a story in spite of the rules"!? Motherfucker, that's what the rules are there for. God, his ideas are awful.

[erik]

I need to start incorporating this philosophy into all aspects of gaming! Fantastic!

My opponents outbid my contact with my partner in bridge, I'll just play with my suit as trump instead and not let the rules get in the way of what was supposed to happen.

Hrm, that lucky streak of rolling allowed your single soldier to hold Indonesia in Risk despite my larger attacking army. Well, let's pretend that didn't happen. The rules are getting in the way of me telling the story of how I conquered the world.

[Username17]

In Monte's defense, he's actually not being quite as dickish as y'all are making it sound. He's saying that he doesn't want the rules to "get in the way" by producing dumb results. I think we can actually all get behind that statement.

The other thing he's saying is actually kind of weird. He says that he knows that as an MC, you're just going to want to break rules right and left and railroad the fuck out of things, so he's building that right into the game. The MC has a certain amount of "rule breaking" rationed in so that they can railroad the fuck out of things within a limited extent. I... don't really know what to say about that.

On the one hand, if MC rule breaking is actually in the rules and effectively rationed, it's not really rule breaking anymore and is actually part of how the game works. So maybe this is going to act as a leash keeping MCs from getting their full DM Penis Insert freak on? Somehow I think it won't actually work, and MCs will just use those tools until they run out of slack on that leash and then just start breaking those rules to dick with things even more.

It's an interesting idea, but I don't have a lot of faith in it. I really think you should tell the MC to not be a jerkface rather than giving them a finite amount of jerkface points to spend on shitting on the table.

-Username17

[erik]

I guess I'd like a bit more insight into his head for "what's supposed to happen" since different participants may have opposing ideas for what is supposed to happen, and then what? Most every RPG has a clause about the rule of fun or rule zero or somesuch these days.

I don't think that Monte personally is looking to get his penis insertion fill by that snippet provided, just that he's empowering the douches who will. Formalizing a process to break rules seems a tricky business. They should give good guidelines on when it should be done, and when it should not be done. Maybe he does have a 'don't be a jerkface clause' too. It's sad that it needs to be included, but the world is what it is.

[Cyberzombie]

Based on what I read, the GM can use an intrusion whenever he wants and you just end up getting XP for it. That seems more or less fair. The DM is dynamically creating an obstacle, and you're getting more XP for overcoming it. At face value, that's a fair trade in an RPG.

The majority of intrusion examples are like GM-created Shadowrun glitches as opposed to pure railroad mechanics. These I like. I think your game benefits by having a complication mechanic of some kind to give people the idea that they're in a living breathing world and not a perfectly predictable rules construct. It's a good thing to inject some unpredictability into the game. We've all been in the D&D game where the guy with a belt of potions and a backpack full of alchemist fire went down a 70 ft drop without breaking a single vial. Having the threat of a complication gets players thinking more logically about the gameworld and it's consequences. And that's an area where I feel modern rules-heavy games really need help. At some point there needs to be some appeal to common sense in the rules that says: Yeah, those glass flasks are going to shatter.

The main issue I see with intrusions is that they need some limits. Sometimes it talks about intrusions forcing you to make another saving throw, causing some wear and tear on your armor, or causing you to get auto disarmed in combat. Those are fine. However, in his capture scenario, Monte goes on to mention using an intrusion to automatically KO a PC. It's one thing to present PCs with an extra obstacle. It's quite another to arbitrarily strike them down with the hand of god. That's where you move into dick territory.

At the very least, if you want to totally dick over the PCs, you've got to hand them truckloads of XP as compensation. Railroading GMs are going to railroad regardless of the game, the most the game designer can do is give PCs benefits for riding the plot railroad. Aside from that, the only real defense against a bad DM is still the oldest: Don't play with that DM again.

[Prak]

DiceStormers[/url]]Is it just me or does #Numenera seem like a grown up version of #AdventureTime?

From Twitter. If Numenera does well, we will all know why, now.

[...You Lost Me]

I haven't seen much comedy in the book. Maybe I need to keep reading.

[Prak]

I have to admit I haven't watched a lot of AT, but I think they were talking about the "fantasy in a post apocalypse" setting.

[John Magnum]

Well, there's fourteen billion "fantasy in a post apocalypse" settings, so I would hope they have something more specific in mind if they're gonna invoke Adventure Time in particular.

[Prak]

Possibly blowing smoke up Monte's ass.

[Dogbert]

I haven't seen much comedy in the book. Maybe I need to keep reading.

P. 98 of the book, there's your comedy.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Dogbert, Google Chrome gives me a malware warning about your image, that it comes from smackjeeves.

[Judging__Eagle]

[Ancient Necromancy is preferable to Uselessly making new threads; Also, I'm surprised there's no dedicated Numenera PC thread yet, but w/e]


I'm going to be joining an existing game of Numenera (currently.... 2 Nanos, 1 Jack; going to be a Nano as well).

Any advice on where to spend ~11 XP? Right now I recall talking with two of the other players, the other Nano PCs players, and I recall something about a Nano who is better at getting spell access.

Also, any suggestions on Splatbooks to look at (PDFs of) for ways to further optimize a Nano focusing on Rube Goldberging spells together, over raw damage. If I just create an acceleration loop, then auto-aim them at a Black Hole (or the Sun, or just way off into space) off in the Numenera sky.... why do I care about destroying them w/ fire/lighting.

[Dogbert]

Any advice on where to spend ~11 XP?

Levelling up of course, which forcefully requires you to buy an increase to your whatever-the-name-was-for-"resistance to actually spend Int points", an Int increment, and something else I can't say I care for remembering.

Also, any suggestions on Splatbooks to look at (PDFs of) for ways to further optimize a Nano focusing on Rube Goldberging spells together, over raw damage.

Cypher doesn't have enough fiddly bits for optimizing jack. You select your class, your adjective, and your verb, and that's it. Just don't fall for the trap option of spending XP on temporary or otherwise piddly shit, and you're golden.

Also, Rube-Goldberging assumes you can predict how X interacts with Y, which is the anti-thesis of Paranoia Numenera. You're never supposed to know so much as which way is up, and the GM is both sanctioned and encouraged by Monte to screw with anything and everything you do, starting with gravity and causality.

Dogbert, Google Chrome gives me a malware warning about your image, that it comes from smackjeeves.

That's because the comic comes from Smackjeeves (the gif is hosted elsewhere).

SJ has served me well... even if every so often they have... let's call them, "moe" moments in which a change in the portal's coding makes them register as positive on all anti-virus servers on the web.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

P.S: SJ is still better than Numenera.
P.P.S: If JE can bring the thread back from the dead, I can answer long-forgotten @s in my direction I even forgot they ever happened.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'm still able to use the spells "as written"; at least?

I believe the Nano specilalization that I'm going to aim for is... "Wields Power With Precision."

I haven't really looked at the rulebook in any time recently, so I'll have to see my options myself.

I'm glad to hear that it's not requiring as much game mastery as Monte Cook once professed to love to have in games (@_@).

[Antariuk]

Any advice on where to spend ~11 XP? Right now I recall talking with two of the other players, the other Nano PCs players, and I recall something about a Nano who is better at getting spell access.

Since Monte couldn't avoid D&D trappings if his life depended on it, Nanos suffer from many of the same problems Wizards do in 3rd Edition. Nanos can interact with the world in ways a Glaive or Jack just can't and are generally better at problem solving, be that in the creative or just damage-dealing way. They are also better at identifying, carrying and using cyphers and artifacts, which is a major aspect of the core game as written. However, character creation in Numenera isn't as rigid as one might expect and a Tough Nano Who Wields Two Weapons At Once could be just the fighter character a player is looking for. Hybrid character concepts are one of the (few) things Numenera is really good at.

So you start with a Tier 1 character and have 11 XP to spend? That means you can buy two advancement steps for 4 XP each (four of those steps advance the character to Tier 2) and either spend the remaining 3 XP on a long-term benefit such as an artifact or being wealthy or something or keep it for re-rolls and such. One of the advancement steps should be an increase in your Intelligence Edge since that'll allow you to use a number of possible esoteries for free. I'd probably buy a new esotery with the second step.

Also, any suggestions on Splatbooks to look at (PDFs of) for ways to further optimize a Nano focusing on Rube Goldberging spells together, over raw damage. If I just create an acceleration loop, then auto-aim them at a Black Hole (or the Sun, or just way off into space) off in the Numenera sky.... why do I care about destroying them w/ fire/lighting.

Characters in Numenera, especially early on, are specialists - you don't have an array of options, you can do two or three things really well, because you only have two or three real abilities. Character Options 1 is worth looking into because it adds to the number of type abilities you can choose from as a Nano. Erase Memories is a Tier-1 ability and hilariously overpowered, to name just one example. Both Character Options supplements add Descriptors and Foci.

I'm stucking using the spells "as written"; at least?

Pretty much. There is a line somewhere in the Core Rulebook about creatively using character abilities beyond their scope as written, but that's pure MC houserule territory.

I believe the Nano specilalization that I'm going to aim for is... "Wields Power With Precision."

That is a popular Focus for obvious reasons, but it also it kinda boring. Yes, it uniquely enhances Nano esoteries, but it doesn't add any interesting abilities to your portfolio. Depending on what the rest of your group looks like, that might be a problem or not.

[Longes]

Probably the single best focus is the electricity one since it gives you a completely unique ability to recharge artifacts. Which breaks a fair number of them.

[Dogbert]

I'm stucking using the spells "as written"; at least?

They'll work "as written" saying the GM doesn't fuck you over with GM Intervention Fuckery (which can happen at any time for any reason).

I believe the Nano specilalization that I'm going to aim for is... "Wields Power With Precision."

Re-checking the char sheets I had on my HD, one of them had Wields Power With Presicion, so I can trust it has enough going for it, also Rides The Lightning gives you a decent deal of agency. Also, don't forget to select professions, not skills (preferably Profession: Is Batman)

I'm glad to hear that it's not requiring as much game mastery as Monte Cook once professed to love to have in games (@_@).

Monte grew the neckbeard soon after hooking up with ms. Germain (the neckbeard, do not confuse with Growing the BEARD) so yeah, you don't need any system mastery past basic Ivory Tower bullshit detection.

[angelfromanotherpin]

(preferably Profession: Is Batman)

Protip: Many people will reject Profession: Batman, but will let you get away with literal murder if you try Profession: Spy.

[maglag]

To be quite fair, Batman isn't a profession, since Bruce Wayne doesn't get paid to go around in spandex beating up mentally ill people. He actually spends a lot money to be Batman. Not much of a profession if you get negative income out of it.

[erik]

To be quite fair, Batman isn't a profession, since Bruce Wayne doesn't get paid to go around in spandex beating up mentally ill people. He actually spends a lot money to be Batman. Not much of a profession if you get negative income out of it.

It would be pretty cool if a wing of Wayne Industries was making Batman toys. Then Bruce Wayne could even have a cover if someone found some Batman paraphernalia on him like a batarang. And make money.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Anytime it's come up in-universe, Batman merch falls under JLA merch rules, all profits of which go to charity.

[Judging__Eagle]

However, character creation in Numenera isn't as rigid as one might expect and a Tough Nano Who Wields Two Weapons At Once could be just the fighter character a player is looking for. Hybrid character concepts are one of the (few) things Numenera is really good at.

I feel like I'm being unfairly fan-serviced. Is a shield-using Nano viable? I'm fine being stuck with either spells or weapons; if changing between the two is made impossible for mechanic/balance reasons.

Leveraging some sort of social credit as a "Paladin" protecting the innocents. While really just trying to establish their own fief in the maelstrom that I suppose Numenera is(?).

However, I am never firmly affixed to any concept; and prefer malleable concepts.

So you start with a Tier 1 character and have 11 XP to spend? That means you can buy two advancement steps for 4 XP each (four of those steps advance the character to Tier 2) and either spend the remaining 3 XP on a long-term benefit such as an artifact or being wealthy or something or keep it for re-rolls and such. One of the advancement steps should be an increase in your Intelligence Edge since that'll allow you to use a number of possible esoteries for free. I'd probably buy a new esotery with the second step.

Sounds like fun, it's a viable character concept in many games to have "is wealthy" on your character sheet somewhere, somehow.

Increasing Intelligence [edit: Int Edge, I'll have to keep that in mind] always sounds like a good idea. Getting new a new esotery sounds like a good idea, as well.

Character Options 1 is worth looking into because it adds to the number of type abilities you can choose from as a Nano. Erase Memories is a Tier-1 ability and hilariously overpowered, to name just one example. Both Character Options supplements add Descriptors and Foci.

Mind manipulation is always OP. The biggest issues with mind manipulation isn't that they're ever too weak, but that they're so hard to not make overwhelmingly powerful.

I've yet to see a game where mind manipulation wasn't OP. I'll have to look at the Character Options 1 book; I've currently been looking at book 2 and feel sad. ...D:

Pretty much. There is a line somewhere in the Core Rulebook about creatively using character abilities beyond their scope as written, but that's pure MC houserule territory.

I'll try to use them like something out of the Incredible Machine or Marble/Domino-engaged, as much as their original rules to use them as physics mechanisms. Instead of fantasy logicgate components like a true Rube Goldberg machine (Goldberg's machines were made for comic strips b/c they were so ludicrously unlikely).

That is a popular Focus for obvious reasons, but it also it kinda boring. Yes, it uniquely enhances Nano esoteries, but it doesn't add any interesting abilities to your portfolio. Depending on what the rest of your group looks like, that might be a problem or not.

There's a Fire and Lighting Nano in the group as it is, so I think going for "Precision" can give the group a wider array of options. If not multiple threats along the more effective axes, such as mind manipulation (like Memory Erasure).

---

I believe that "Be Bruce Wayne" might also be on the table; from the Wealth & "More abilities" options that are pointed out.

I guess maybe try something like profession: Financier?

[Antariuk]

Is a shield-using Nano viable? I'm fine being stuck with either spells or weapons; if changing between the two is made impossible for mechanic/balance reasons.

Absolutely. For some reason, a lot of people ignore shields - or the standard healing rules not based on special abilities - but they exist and they are pretty good when faced with melee monsters (shields grant you an asset on speed defense, e.g. make your defense rolls easier, which is something you care about at lower Tiers). You can totally combine them with esoteries and single-handed weapons no problem, unless your MC is a dick.

Increasing Intelligence [edit: Int Edge, I'll have to keep that in mind] always sounds like a good idea. Getting new a new esotery sounds like a good idea, as well.

A high Edge in your main stat is vital to preserve your Pool points and use abilities for free. Effort (the number of steps you can push yourself to inflict more damage or lower difficulties) is also pretty important, but I'd rather have another ability (esotery) at hand at the start of a game than being able to empty most of my pool for a single mega-roll. But it's not really an issue since character advancement allows you to decide the sequence of your advancement steps, enabling you to react to the needs of your group or the game without having to wait super long.

I've yet to see a game where mind manipulation wasn't OP. I'll have to look at the Character Options 1 book; I've currently been looking at book 2 and feel sad. ...D:

CO1 has shittier descriptors than CO2, but the type options make it worthwhile.

There's a Fire and Lighting Nano in the group as it is, so I think going for "Precision" can give the group a wider array of options. If not multiple threats along the more effective axes, such as mind manipulation (like Memory Erasure).

Fair enough, in that case it's not a bad idea.