Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

[Jason]

Anyone who put even the TINIEST amount of work into reading what I've said in this thread would realize why this is fucking stupid and nothing to do with what I have said. Learn to read or fuck off.

Then you need to reread, what you actually wrote.

He very specifically whined about how the rules I did provide don't prove that there's not a secret hidden rule I'm not providing, and specifically claimed I hadn't disproved the hypothetical existence of this magic rule.

He very specifically "whined" about you not providing any actual rules, but instead interpolations from rules for other, entirely different spells.

It's not about you proving a negative. It's about you proving that unattended items lose their spell effect as a general rule, because that's what you claim. It's that specific claim he wants you to substantiate. You failed to do that so far.

... The claim that a personal spell can continue affecting objects that are no longer attended object. ...

How so? How is this absurd? How about the following Interpretation:

You cast etheral jaunt, it turns you and your equipment ethereal for the next <Level> rounds. The end.

[Username17]

the object is let go. it ceases to be affected by a spell that allows it to "blink" between planes. because it is no longer affected by said spell it is stuck on the plane it is let go on. i don't see any reason to assume that the object in question somehow aquires the ability to change plane by itself. it only did so because it was attached to the caster, who was in turn affected by the spell that allowed him to do so.

But Blink doesn't leave you on the Ethereal Plane. It never ever does that. It doesn't say it pops you onto the Material Plane when it ends, but fucking everyone understands that that is what it does.

If you are saying that the spell's lack of text that things are left off on the Material when the spell ends is enough for random objects to get left on the Ethereal, you are equally saying that the spell's lack of text specifying that the caster is left off on the Material is enough for the caster to get left on the Ethereal sometimes. Because literally half the fucking time the spell ends while you're on the Ethereal.

But everyone knows and agrees that this minor 3rd level buff doesn't have a 50% chance or a 20% chance or fucking any chance at all of randomly stranding the caster in the Ethereal realm when it ends. Because we aren't fucking retarded and we all actually know that the spell's effect is to push you onto the Ethereal for short hops and when the spell effect ends the subject goes back to the Material Plane. We all know this. It's just that some people are pretending to not know this exactly long enough to pretend that there's some ambiguity in the effects of the end of Blink on specifically a thrown rock.

But you don't get to be taken seriously when your argument begins with "I'm pretending to not know something very obvious that I clearly do know in order to make an argument about missing text with regards to a specific case that I am pretending is different from the general case for no adequately explained reason."

-Username17

[Username17]

How so? How is this absurd?

The idea that spells affect things they do not affect is so tautologically absurd that Omegonthesane claimed it was strawmanning for Kaelik and I to even continue referencing it as an argument that exists. Thank you for proving otherwise.

An attended object is you. An unattended object is not you. A personal spell affects you. It does not affect things that are not you. If an object becomes attended, it becomes you and a personal spell covers it. If an attended object becomes unattended, it stops being you and stops being covered by your personal spells.

If you are operating under levitate and you drop a rock, it falls. It doesn't continue floating in the air where you left it until the spell ends. If you polymorph into a giant slug the slime trail you leave behind dries up and vanishes as soon as it leaves you because it stops being giant slug slime as soon as it disconnects from your body.

And yes, that means that when you throw a rock while blinking, the rock stops blinking and starts being a regular non-blink material rock.

-Username17

[shlominus]

But Blink doesn't leave you on the Ethereal Plane. It never ever does that.

i never said it did. stop debating your own strawmen please. the caster will never be left on the ethereal plane. objects he brought with him might though. this is obvious once you accept what blink actually does. you seem to have a problem doing that.

let's get back to the actual topic, which you seem to be eager to avoid.

your claim is that once the caster loses possesion of the item it pops back onto the material plane cause it's no longer affected by the spell. i agree with your argument that "the spell effect stops and so the object is no longer affected". the problem is that the effect of blink is quick back and forth movement between planes. once that stops applying to the object in question the object stops doing that (as you say it should). it therefore "stops quickly moving back and forth between planes".

at the time it is either on the material or the ethereal plane. it will stay on that plane, no longer being affected by the spell. without the spell effect the object has no way of changing between planes.

you are beaten by your own claim (which i agree with ) and your postion only seems sustainable to yourself because you refuse to address the fact that if you accepted what blink actually does (reminder: it makes you jump between planes quickly) you'd have to admit you are wrong.

you don't get to be taken seriously when your argument begins with "I'm pretending to not know something very obvious that I clearly do know in order to make an argument about missing text with regards to a specific case that I am pretending is different from the general case for no adequately explained reason.

well, don't be surprised if people have a hard time taking you seriously then, cause that's exactly what you are doing.

edit:

And yes, that means that when you throw a rock while blinking, the rock stops blinking and starts being a regular non-blink material rock.

and how does that regular non-blinking rock make the transition from the ethereal (where it was let go) to the material plane?

[Username17]

the caster will never be left on the ethereal plane. objects he brought with him might though.

This is a distinction that doesn't exist. There is absolutely no reason to believe the spell blink ends differently for different means of spell ending or for different parts of the original target. You're creating a division that doesn't exist and then adding a possible spell end state that also doesn't exist. There's no reason to take any of this seriously. What actually happens is that Blink always ends the same way (with the subject on the material plane) and there is absolutely no evidence of there being any special cases or caveats to that.

Now Erik keeps throwing down the gauntlet to you assholes: can you name a single example anywhere of a Personal spell that continues to affect an object when it becomes unattended? I actually can. It doesn't help you, and it's a very special case. But I can. There is in fact one example in the core rules of a Personal spell that continues having an affect on an unattended object. It's a specific exception, and it doesn't help you. Because it doesn't apply to blink. Or Ethereal Jaunt, for that matter.

-Username17

[Axebird]

When the spell effect ends, the subject returns to the material plane.

When the subject stops attending an object (i.e. they drop a rock), the effect ends on that object.

When the subject stops attending an object, the object returns to the material plane because the effect ended on it.

If you were going to claim the object could end up stranded on the ethereal plane after no longer being attended, you'd have to demonstrate that as a possible consequence for any subject of the spell, because its effect on objects being carried by the subject are not meaningfully different. Tangentially, you'd also have a bizarre corner case where blink could be used to transfer permanently between the material and ethereal planes using items like bags of holding to ferry people, or used to retrieve objects on the ethereal plane and render them permanently material.

[shlominus]

i see.

we agree that the spell effect ends on the object once no longer attached to the caster.

what exactly, in your own words, is the effect of the spell "blink"?

[deaddmwalking]

For what it's worth, I already mentioned Giant Form as an example of a personal spell where your thrown and projectile weapons do damage based on the size you are when you cast the spell rather than your normal size. That's derived from the principle of spells doing what they say they do and not doing things they don't say they do.

[Thaluikhain]

what exactly, in your own words, is the effect of the spell "blink"?

Yeah, I'm seconding this question.

There seems to be people interpreting it as the spell moving you to the Ethereal Plane like normal movement. And you go back to the Material Plane because the spell pulls you back. Like someone pushing you over a line, but keeping their hands on the back of your shirt and yanking you back. The spell goes out of its way to pull you back to the Material Plane.

And there seems to be people interpreting as the spell more like someone lifting you up in the air on their shoulders into the Ethereal Plane, and letting you fall down again. The spell doesn't have to bring you back down as such, you are fall back to the Material Plane by something else whenever the spell isn't going out of it's way to push you up.

I was leaning towards the first (to the extent that I'd not initially considered interpreting it the second way), but if that was the case if the spell was interrupted you could get stuck on either side of the line, whereas in the case of the second you'd always fall back to the Material Plane if that happened, which fits the description better and I think is the sort of thing Frank was getting at with spell endings.

I think.

[shlominus]

i also believe that there is some confusion about how he spell is supposed to be understood in this context. but for me there's one simple way to find out which interpretation is more likely.

it is looking at the spell description.

there's a 20% chance for attacks to miss while blinking. there are no qualifiers at all to this. to me that means it's obvious that ranged attacks can fail because the object used in the attack is "stuck" on the ethereal plane. that is what i base my interpretation on. a plain and simple sentence in the spell description.

i have yet to see anything that would make me question this interpretation in any way.

so far the arguments against that interpretation have been:
it's obvious
why do you hate stuff that's cool, you meanie?
you're stupid
bad faith
other spells
more stuff about other spells
there's an article that explains it but i'm not linking cause you suck

while the other side's claim is "the spell literally says what's going on!"

[Username17]

There seems to be people interpreting it as the spell moving you to the Ethereal Plane like normal movement. And you go back to the Material Plane because the spell pulls you back. Like someone pushing you over a line, but keeping their hands on the back of your shirt and yanking you back. The spell goes out of its way to pull you back to the Material Plane.

And there seems to be people interpreting as the spell more like someone lifting you up in the air on their shoulders into the Ethereal Plane, and letting you fall down again. The spell doesn't have to bring you back down as such, you are fall back to the Material Plane by something else whenever the spell isn't going out of it's way to push you up.

I was leaning towards the first (to the extent that I'd not initially considered interpreting it the second way), but if that was the case if the spell was interrupted you could get stuck on either side of the line, whereas in the case of the second you'd always fall back to the Material Plane if that happened, which fits the description better and I think is the sort of thing Frank was getting at with spell endings.

I think.

Basically this. Except we know that the people who are pretending to believe the "two way movement" interpretation and pretending to be textual literalists are just pretending. They obviously don't actually believe that and are lying for the purposes of trying to win an argument on the internet.

We know this because Blink doesn't actually say you end up on the material plane when it's done. It doesn't say what happens when it ends at all. Any interpretation of the spell where it was possible to leave objects in the Ethereal would necessarily be an interpretation of the spell that stranded the caster in a formless void a significant percentage of the time. If you have an interpretation that says you need Blink's final act to be to move you back to the material in order to stay on the material when it's over, you're claiming that people get stranded on the ethereal all the fucking time because the spell doesn't actually say that it provides a warp back to the material just before ending every time or even most times.

If you want to argue some position based on the fact that it does not say that it always warps back your thrown rocks when the spell stops affecting them, then you are implicitly and equally arguing that the completely equally valid point that it does not say it warps the fucking caster back at any point has equal weight.

The fact hat not one person has copped to believing that there is any chance of the caster being left behind on the Ethereal plane means that no one in this conversation actually believes the line of argument that says a thrown rock might get stranded on the Ethereal plane either. People keep making the argument because they don't want to admit to being wrong on the internet, but no one actually believes the argument under discussion.

-Username17

[virgil]

If objects instantly lose the effect of a personal spell when they become unattended, doesn't this mean poisons gained from polymorph spells functionally don't work? I seem to recall that being an understood facet of 3E

[Username17]

If objects instantly lose the effect of a personal spell when they become unattended, doesn't this mean poisons gained from polymorph spells functionally don't work? I seem to recall that being an understood facet of 3E

Stench effects do not work under Polymorph, that is correct.

-Username17

[deaddmwalking]

Anyone who claims that Giant Form doesn't do increased damage for thrown weapons based on the description of the spell is ruining D&D.

If your reaction to someone finds something cool to do with getting instantaneous advantage from their own buffs not applying, you should just politely golf clap and grab another handful of doritos. If your reaction is to try to bend the definition of "you" to include items you aren't carrying or whatever just to make their trick not work no matter how much damage it does to the rest of the magic physics fuck you. You are now officially "that guy." You're the shitty fucking neckbeard that ruins cooperative storytelling experiences by being a negative asshole. Stop it. Stop ruining D&D.

-Username17

So tell me how Giant Form doesn't do increased damage for ranged weapons if your interpretation of unattended objects were a universal rule?

[virgil]

So tell me how Giant Form doesn't do increased damage for ranged weapons if your interpretation of unattended objects were a universal rule?

The force imparted by the attacker doesn't shrink.

[Username17]

Isn't Giant Form a Pathfinder spell that turns you into a Troll? I genuinely have no idea what DDMW is talking about and neither does Google.

-Username17

[deaddmwalking]

So tell me how Giant Form doesn't do increased damage for ranged weapons if your interpretation of unattended objects were a universal rule?

The force imparted by the attacker doesn't shrink.

While that's certainly a relatively sane interpretation, it is inconsistent with enlarge person where a bizarre distinction is maintained between projectile and thrown weapons. If the enlarge person spell description fluff determined the mechanics of giant form, thrown weapons would not benefit from the larger weapon size.

And of course, your observation that janni would obliterate a 4th level party remains correct. If projectiles materialize from the ethereal plane the moment they are fired janni could snipe with impunity. If, instead, one accepts that projectiles fired on the ethereal plane don't instantaneously turn material, one doesn't have to address these 'downstream effects'. Flask rogues end up with a 20% miss chance, but that's hardly going to ruin them as a concept (and greater blink still exists), but you don't have a janni apocalypse.

[maglag]

Isn't Giant Form a Pathfinder spell that turns you into a Troll? I genuinely have no idea what DDMW is talking about and neither does Google.

-Username17

He's probably talking about Giant Size, a Wu Jen spell that can make you grow up to colossal.

So now you must pick one Frank, either you admit that equipment can keep personal spell properties after leaving your person, or you will be that "shitty fucking neckbeard that ruins cooperative storytelling experiences by being a negative asshole " by claiming that somebody buffed with giant size making ranged attacks will see their ammo shrink and deal less damage. You can't claim both at the same time.

[erik]

For what it's worth, I already mentioned Giant Form as an example of a personal spell where your thrown and projectile weapons do damage based on the size you are when you cast the spell rather than your normal size. That's derived from the principle of spells doing what they say they do and not doing things they don't say they do.

Okay. Isn’t Giant Form a pathfinder spell? I looked up Giant Size in complete arcane and saw no reference to throwing things.

Edit fuck too slow looking shit up on phone.

Further edit: I guess my post isn’t entirely wasted as it rebuts maglag entirely. So given no DnD spell has been provided as evidence, my call still remains out for any example in DnD 3e or 3.5 of a personal spell that affects an object after it becomes an unattended object.

[Thaluikhain]

i also believe that there is some confusion about how he spell is supposed to be understood in this context. but for me there's one simple way to find out which interpretation is more likely.

it is looking at the spell description.

there's a 20% chance for attacks to miss while blinking. there are no qualifiers at all to this.

Well, yes, it does clearly and unambiguously say that. Can't argue with that.

to me that means it's obvious that ranged attacks can fail because the object used in the attack is "stuck" on the ethereal plane. that is what i base my interpretation on. a plain and simple sentence in the spell description.

Well...RAW, you can shoot people on the Ethereal Plane. I can't argue with that, but then I can't wrap my head around it making much sense if it works that way, because it should have other effects but apparently doesn't.

Of course, you can argue that RAW is more important than consistency, a wizard did it and it keeps the game going.

[deaddmwalking]

For reference:

Giant Size (Complete Arcane PGA 109-110)
Transmutation
Level Wu Jensen
Components V, S, M
Casting Time 1 round
Range Personal
Target You
Duration 1 minute

Table of size adjustments omitted

Description
When you cast this spell, you grow to Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal size, depending on your caster level. Your Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, natural armor, size modifier to Armor Class and attack rolls, and space and reach all change as shown on the accompanying table. (You need not assume the largest size you are capable of; you can choose to grow only to a smaller size if you wish.)

All of your equipment changes size with you, allowing you to use weapons or magic items effectively in your giant form. See Table 2-2: Inceeasing Weapon Damage by Sizen page 28 of the Dungeon Master's Guide, to determine the damage dealt by any weapons carried when you cast giant size.
Material Component The scale of a dragon or hairs from the head of a giant.

[erik]

Um yes. Zero references to thrown items retaining giant size.

[merxa]

I guess we've gotten to the point where people are just claiming spells don't actually do what they say they do because of some esoteric interpretation of d&d magical-physics.

As far as I know, when you cast a spell you check that you meet all the conditions, that the target is valid and within range. You don't keep checking afterwards, when you cast bless and one round later your supposed ally turns against you and becomes an enemy -- they don't suddenly lose bless or perhaps in some peoples esoteric views that is exactly what happens.

Also you don't cast dimensional anchor and have it invalidated because a monster moves a few hundred feet away from you, or perhaps again in the esoteric view it does.

Again there is nothing in the actual rules that tells you to continually check whether a spell retains a valid target, nothing. Please quote the rule, I'll wait.

A certain level of mind caulk is required because d&d wasn't built using some underlying magical-physics engine, it's not like the rules are actually a field report of some guys who lived in greyhawk, it's a game that people made up so of course there inconsistencies and errors and times when the rules don't really say one way or another what happens under certain conditions. The fact that people want to argue so strongly that they know exactly how magic in 3.x works is absurd.

[erik]

If you can find a dnd spell that says an unattended object remains affected by a personal spell please do. Saying a carried weapon is affected does not meet that low standard.

[virgil]

If personal-range spells persist on objects after they leave their owner's person, barring the duration naturally ending or the spell description explicitly saying otherwise, what consequences must we consider?