Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:40 pm

Jason wrote:- Splitting Hide and Move Silently is utterly pointless and nothing but a skill point sink.

This is stupid and wrong on a bunch of levels. Just for starters, 3rd edition D&D did not split Hide and Move Silently. Hide in Shadows and Move Silently were Thief Abilities written in the 1970s. 3rd Edition removed an entire percentile based subsystem for Thief Abilities and merged the Thief Abilities onto the standard skill list and converted them to the unified skill system that was itself more closely descended from the Non Weapon Proficiencies of 2nd Edition than anything from the 1970s. Hide and Move Silently weren't split up. They were never together in the first place.

But beyond that, when you have a fantasy world that has Grimlocks and Darkness/Invisibility spells, keeping visual and auditory perception and stealth as separate tallies isn't pointless. There are just genuinely things that allow you to hide very well from vision or hearing and not the other. If you make a single Perception and Stealth factor you end up havign to create a shit tonne of epicycles to cover that shit.

Now 3rd Edition D&D did not have an acceptable Stealth system. But the fact that Hide and Move Silently were made separately is not why. And merging Hide and Move Silently doesn't actually solve any of its problems.

-Username17

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:20 pm

Yeah that was my first thought.

Imagine picking "there is a Hide and MS" as the biggest problem with the 3e stealth system instead of like... 845th.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:07 am

How should smell stealth be approached?

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tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:17 am

deaddmwalking wrote:In the 1st edition DMG (the one with the Ifrit on the cover) the Encounter Distance during outdoor adventures was 6d4" (4-24) and was reduced by the surprise roll. For reasons, each inch corresponds to a yard outdoors. So the maximum encounter distance was 24 yards (72').

Ahem. The AD&D inch is 10 yards outdoors, 10 feet indoors. 240 yards max range, 150 yards average. Which is still much shorter than 3e given the movement speeds, you're in melee by round 2 in AD&D, and running for 7+ rounds in 3e, so just nitpicking.

Also, Titans in every edition are a bit over 20 feet tall, which is about 3 pixels to our eyes at 3 miles, so it's not at all unreasonable to not see that against any sort of irregular colour scheme, and even if you did it's not "an encounter".

If I was gunna complain about encounter distance in 3e, it's that they pretty much copied the distances from AD&D, but effectively slowed everyone down with the much shorter rounds, in combination with extended range weapons and spells made kiting too effective.

--

Edit Re: Hide, Move Silent, the original split was for non-moving vs moving stealth. You could not Hide in Shadows while moving in AD&D, only Move Silently while not in view.

3e changed that to be more "yes, but" like most of the changes, but the odds are terrible if you move while hiding, and of course every fucking monster has Spot and Listen maxed out so it doesn't work anyway. Ignoring both skills and just staying still while out of LOS works.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:38 am

FrankTrollman wrote:This is stupid and wrong on a bunch of levels. Just for starters, 3rd edition D&D did not split Hide and Move Silently. Hide in Shadows and Move Silently were Thief Abilities written in the 1970s. 3rd Edition removed an entire percentile based subsystem for Thief Abilities and merged the Thief Abilities onto the standard skill list and converted them to the unified skill system that was itself more closely descended from the Non Weapon Proficiencies of 2nd Edition than anything from the 1970s. Hide and Move Silently weren't split up. They were never together in the first place.

That's just semantic bullshit. You know what I was talking about because you continued on my actual point further down your comment. I'm not going to play silly word games with you and if that's all you can offer, you might as well not bother replying.

FrankTrollman wrote:But beyond that, when you have a fantasy world that has Grimlocks and Darkness/Invisibility spells, keeping visual and auditory perception and stealth as separate tallies isn't pointless. There are just genuinely things that allow you to hide very well from vision or hearing and not the other. If you make a single Perception and Stealth factor you end up havign to create a shit tonne of epicycles to cover that shit.

Except that stealth, even in D&D isn't just about Hearing and listening. There's also smell. Funnily enough, there isn't a skill for that, so your argument falls flat.

You can easily handle stealth as a single skill as well as perception as a single skill. If you truly want to differentiate specific abilities, work with modifiers isntead.
Creating seperate skills for each possibility is utterly inane!

Ignimortis · Post by **Ignimortis** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:19 am

OgreBattle wrote:How should smell stealth be approached?

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Nasal Deception. Appropriate deodorants give +2 on the roll.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:30 am

Jason wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:But beyond that, when you have a fantasy world that has Grimlocks and Darkness/Invisibility spells, keeping visual and auditory perception and stealth as separate tallies isn't pointless. There are just genuinely things that allow you to hide very well from vision or hearing and not the other. If you make a single Perception and Stealth factor you end up havign to create a shit tonne of epicycles to cover that shit.
Except that stealth, even in D&D isn't just about Hearing and listening. There's also smell. Funnily enough, there isn't a skill for that, so your argument falls flat.

You can easily handle stealth as a single skill as well as perception as a single skill. If you truly want to differentiate specific abilities, work with modifiers isntead.
Creating seperate skills for each possibility is utterly inane!

I think Frank's point is that perfectly silent or invisible individuals are common enough that it isn't unreasonable to treat them as separate checks. Scent is rare enough that it has its own mechanic and that's fine. If it were Pugmire dnd or something with all the PCs expected to have some ability to detect scents then it could make sense to make a skill for scent as well, and for ways to mask one's scent.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:15 am

The most obvious retort to the claim that you can easily handle Stealth as a single skill is the simple reality that there is no easy way to handle Stealth. Full fucking stop. There has never been an RPG that handled Stealth well. There hasn't even been a table top game that handled Stealth 'not too badly'. Even games which I would recommend have Stealth minigames that range from inadequate to terrible. If you think there's a single thing about making a Stealth minigame, I suggest you try to make one. It's hard.

Ultimately it's like making a social minigame. No one has ever really done it well, so people who claim that there's an obvious answer as to whether negotiation and intimidation should be separate skills or whatever are just blowing smoke. There are solid arguments to lumping or splitting pretty much anything.

The question of whether to split hearing and vision in your stealth game is complex and depends on what you want your system to model. But if you want invisibility, darkness, and blind creatures to be a major portion of the game, having a robust hearing model is certainly a defensible life goal.

-Username17

Jason · Post by **Jason** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:51 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:The most obvious retort to the claim that you can easily handle Stealth as a single skill is the simple reality that there is no easy way to handle Stealth. Full fucking stop.

I have to agree on that Point. But even so, you don't really gain anything meaningful by splitting stealth into two skills (or perception for that matter).

It's not just a mechanical aspect but also a conceptual one. How many character concepts can you think of, where a character that can move silently really well is unable to hide themselves? Both concepts are thematically linked.

So, you create a skill point sink for no obvious benefit. Invisibility and deafness can easily be handled with situational modifiers isntead of needing an entirely seperate skill.

It is one of the reasons why rogues and rangers needed so many skill Points to begin with and why other classes feel dull and stale in comparison (even though skills themselves have no actual power aspect to the character).

Last but not least, D&D isn't a game that thematically benefits from a deep stealth minigame to begin with. Abstract rolls are fine in that regard. If all you want to know is "Can I sneek past the goblin guard?" a single roll will do just fine. No Point in prolonging the outcome.

erik · Post by **erik** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:20 pm

Jason wrote: It's not just a mechanical aspect but also a conceptual one. How many character concepts can you think of, where a character that can move silently really well is unable to hide themselves? Both concepts are thematically linked.

I can think of plenty, like incorporeals like ghosts n wraiths. Oozes. Buuuuut when I looked them up they to see how this was reflected in their stats they either had significant pile of hide and MS or just hide. Or neither. So boo on that. There was certainly a missed opportunity to diversify.

There’s still spells for silence and invisibility and blind and deaf conditions. And something to consider are bonuses. Most people would expect invisibility to stack with silence. Either those bonuses are going to be halved or the RNG is getting overwhelmed. Not an irreconcilable problem but one to keep in mind.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:25 pm

Jason wrote:It's not just a mechanical aspect but also a conceptual one. How many character concepts can you think of, where a character that can move silently really well is unable to hide themselves? Both concepts are thematically linked.

A Lantern Archon is a globe of light that is incapableof making noise save by becoming so seeringly brilliant that things around it catch on fire. Conceptually it cannot fail to avoid being heard, and it cannot fail to avoid being seen.

A Beholder is a giant eyeball crowned with a forest of additional eyeballs. Its ears are internal. A Gas Spore looks just like a Beholder but doesn't make any noise.

A Grimlock is blind and hunts by sense of hearing.

Finding creatures and characters in Dungeons & Dragons that are conceptually interested in vision or hearing but not both is trivial. D&D spent a long time making various Gygaxian mother-may-I traps and weird modifiers to how monsters attempted to surprise people or avoid being surprised was a common trope back inFiend Folio days.

The core issue is that if you want to have stealth and perception involving creatures with super vision and super hearing and super quietness and literal invisible, you need to have a system that determines whether creatures are potentially visible or audible. If you don't have that, your stealth minigame really can't even start. The numbers are all bullshit because step zero is deciding whether you need to or even get to roll the dice at all.

Every edition of D&D has a non-functional stealth minigame. But there's no evidence at all that merging Hide and Move Silently solves any problems. Sorting it all out would require a means other than Mother-May-I to determine whether a creature was potentially in the field of view of another creature. And once you have that, it's entirely possible that you'd find it advantageous to have different numbers for vision and hearing.

-Username17

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:25 am

Realistically what PC spotter is going to take Spot and not Listen? Realistically what PC ninja is going to take Hide and not Move Silently?

There's a good argument to have the scores be separable for Team Monster, not so much a good one to have them be actual separate skills for Team Player.

I always felt "Invisibility gives +20 to Hide / -20 to Spot you" should've been interpreted as "anyone who can roll higher than 20 on Spot can literally see through Predator cloaking, anyone who can roll higher than 20 on Hide can literally gain Predator cloaking without explicit spellcasting" but for some reason the interpretation that a bunch of explicitly supernatural shit is just mundane activity doesn't seem to be popular afaik.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:37 am

The question of who would take spot and not listen or vice versa or hide and not move silently and not vice versa can only be answered once you define what those skills actually do and when they are used. I can easily imagine a character who cared about listen and move silently but not hide and spot because they cared about pre-combat prep time but didn't care about moving about the battlefield unseen. But that's predicated on the idea that winning the listen-off would allow a team to set up an ambush in the dungeon - which sounds reasonable but has never been formalized in any edition of DnD.

I think it's instructive that the perception skill that does have explicit rules about when it is used and what it is used for (Search) is something that players do factually take or not take with and without taking or not taking Spot. Once you define what a skill does and when it is used, players can and do make informed decisions about whether they want it for their character.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:32 am

Perhaps treat it like darkvision, tremor sense, where it gives you a radius/cone of detection/stealth depending on senses

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:41 am

So, I'm working on a Saints Row one shot for Halloween using All Flesh Must Be Eaten, and I'm making premade characters for my players. I'm considering having Professor Genki as an available character, but skills for him gave me pause.

Would it be acceptable, instead of coming up with 35 points of skills for him, to just give him Murder as a single skill at rank 6, which he uses for literally any kind of task where the end goal is killing?

Pariah Dog · Post by **Pariah Dog** » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:43 am

Prak wrote:So, I'm working on a Saints Row one shot for Halloween using All Flesh Must Be Eaten, and I'm making premade characters for my players. I'm considering having Professor Genki as an available character, but skills for him gave me pause.

Would it be acceptable, instead of coming up with 35 points of skills for him, to just give him Murder as a single skill at rank 6, which he uses for literally any kind of task where the end goal is killing?

Not familar with AFMBE but on paper it sounds like it has a lot of potential for abuse (not sure how combat heavy is going to be, figure heavy given Saint's Row) since you could use it for general combat stuff (punching, stabbing, shooting), rigging up traps (insert Wile E Coyote Diagram here), Stealth (I want to sneak up on him and make him go BOOM), diplomancy (I want to talk him down that instead of killing us leaves us alone in exchange for my [Booby-trapped thing that explodes/sprays acid into his face/is full of angry bees/etc]), traversal skills (climbing, swimming etc) (I want to get over there and bash his head in with a baseball bat/dildo/giant tentacle). Sounds more like a challenge of how can I do X where murder is the end goal? In a creative player's hands everyone else sit back and let Genki murder his way through the problem, in a less inventive player's hands its sit around and play Smash Brothers until it's time to play Smash Brothers in game.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:10 pm

All Flesh is a Zombie Survival rpg using the Unisystem rules. The basic resolution mechanism is d10+mods, with a success level table ranging from Esy (1-2) to Impossible (13-15). For Skills, a 1 indicates very basic training, 2-3 general competency, and 4-5 extreme competency. 6 and higher indicates a complete mastery of the skill.

This is going to be a one shot with premade characters, primarily the major characters of SRtT, minus the Boss (Gat, Shaundi, Pierce, Kinzie) plus the characters I consider to be on par with the lieutenants (Oleg, Zimos), and then Genki because, well, why the fuck not. He'd definitely get involved if there was a major zombie outbreak in Steelport.

So, basically, Genki as I've statted him gets to roll a d10+Attribute+6 when trying to kill someone. And for a one shot, that I'll be running and can adjudicate based on my own intent, I kinda like that. It means that Genki has 0 ranks of Driving if he's just trying to get to a place, but if he's trying to run people over, he's the world's best driver. If he's trying to set a humane catch trap, he's incompetent, but if he's creating a literal death trap for people, he's hyper-competent. Basically, I would adjudicate it to mean direct end goal, so no using it for traversal or diplomacy skills unless you can find a way to direct murder with them.

But that doesn't necessarily tell me whether it's "fair" or not. I'm thinking of holding Genki back until the first PC dies, and then including him in the selection, or holding him back until the players have convinced him to help in game, or something like that. The other, and perhaps larger problem is that while Genki is very memetic, I'm honestly not sure how playable he is, narratively. I mean, I always considered him "The Voiceless" until I went and checked the SR wiki and found actual audio clips for him, so he *does* talk.

Pariah Dog · Post by **Pariah Dog** » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:28 pm

Those "Cash in pocket" "Ethical!" lines are his voice?

Edit: Nope, but I've NEVER heard him talk in any of the 3 SR games he was in.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:02 am

Prak wrote:I'm honestly not sure how playable he is, narratively. I mean, I always considered him "The Voiceless" until I went and checked the SR wiki and found actual audio clips for him, so he *does* talk.

I'd play that... and commit suicide right away, because Professor Genki!

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Oct 22, 2018 6:39 am

Pariah Dog wrote:Those "Cash in pocket" "Ethical!" lines are his voice?

Edit: Nope, but I've NEVER heard him talk in any of the 3 SR games he was in.

Same, but I think the lines are things he says when you have him as a homie. I pretty much never use homies, so.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:28 am

Welp. That fucking went nowhere. The party I was going to run it at got called off on account of personal shit for a couple players. Shit happens, get the whiskey.

Anyway. The current glut(?) of Cold War era movies has me kinda fascinated in, if not the specific politics and personalities of the actual Cold War, then the dramatic paradigm and stories of the Cold War. I kinda want to write a Cold War inspired D&D setting, but I'm not sure where to go with that exactly. Obviously, it needs a couple of political super powers, locked in a tension that threatens at least planar destruction, and it should have some barely understood, but heavily weaponized force through which said destruction would take place.

I suppose, that force could be something divine. Maybe the two powers have found someway to bind outsiders in such a way that they are only present as weapons of those powers, and not directed by gods? Or maybe the political powers are also religious, like maybe Heironeus and Hextor are the primary godly powers and their churches are the political powers? I kinda like that, actually. But it begs the question of what arcane casters are doing. Sure, it might be possible for the churches to prevent outsiders from answering Planar Binding summons, or outsiders are generally reticent from doing anything too overt and so convincing them to do so with Planar Binding is much more difficult. That sounds kinda interesting. If fiends and celestials are the setting's analogue to nuclear weapons, that sorta puts anyone not involved with the two churches that can exert influence over them in the position of a someone who wasn't directly acting on behalf of the US or Soviet government researching nuclear weapons. I don't really know much about the arms race outside of the superpowers.

I suppose another possibility is that outsiders, possibly even gods, are not as active in the setting as other settings, and there's a much more direct analogue to the arms race with both super powers researching descriptions and truenames of outsiders lost to history. Or maybe the setting's equivalent of the Manhatten Project sealed it off to direct intervention? Making the research means by which outsiders can be brought in?

Anyway, one of the main complaints against Eberron here is that it handled high level shenanigans by saying "all the people you'd do them with are dead." Would handling high-level shenanigans by saying "that risks MAD" be meaningfully distinct from that?

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:22 pm

The thing that makes the cold war work is that the weapons only really allow for utter annihilation (mutually assured destruction). You have normal fighting with normal weapons with every country on reasonably equal footing; if that fighting doesn't do what people want, they have the option of ending it all.

If a powerful outsider can lay waste to a small area, there is more likely to be a general escalation.

Essentially, everyone knew that if you launched one nuclear weapon, the response would be a full nuclear attack; there was no room for gradual escalation.

Indiscriminate killing is also an important aspect - if the cold war powers could have limited their attacks to military targets, they would have been more likely to use them.

Each side having the ability to unleash a demonic invasion might be more similar to what you're looking for. There are portals where each side has to keep the demons at bay. It's essentially a suicide switch, but it will take the other guy, too. Research would focus on how you could release your demons but protect your own side from the resulting wave of destruction.

Alternatively, each side could have a different 'suicide switch'. Both sides would be working to build technology to protect themselves from their own weapon and their opponent's. Only when they have both could they feel secure of victory. That would give each side missions to sabotage developments of the other but also try to steal any advances/capture them for themselves.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:11 pm

I've got a spellcasting BBEG planned (level 14 vs level 12 party), who has access to planar binding spells. Technically, the BBEG can get a genie fairly easily and do stuff like trap the soul in preparation for the players' arrival, which is a spell higher than he himself can cast.

I don't feel comfortable having my villain throw around such spells, even though summoning and binding creatures for wishes would be trivial. I'm fine using genie wish resource to justify why/how the BBEG has three decadently crafted decoy castles (to fool teleporters), is personally decked out in gold-economy gear (will have essentially no wish-economy gear), and can equip a hundred soldiers in adamantine armor, weapons of bloodiron & greensteel, etc; but using the wishes for direct combat applications like that rub me the wrong way.

My question is this: am I being arbitrary with this distinction, or even wrong to do this? If I'm not, how would you more eloquently describe this guideline I'm intuitively following?

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:36 pm

virgil wrote: My question is this: am I being arbitrary with this distinction, or even wrong to do this? If I'm not, how would you more eloquently describe this guideline I'm intuitively following?

You understand that the party doesn't get XP for a summoned monster - ie, if a 3rd level wizard summons a CR 2 monster they get XP for defeating a CR 3 creature (the wizard) and not the CR 2 monster, which represents an ability of the CR 3 creature. His ability to summon is supposed to be factored into his CR. If you are able to summon creatures more powerful than yourself, it is clearly unfair that you get the XP for the creature that did the summoning and not the more powerful creature you defeated.

Additional equipment and such can affect the Encounter Level (ECL) but it doesn't affect the CR. Giving a 1st level character a 9th-level spell effect clearly makes it more difficult than a 1st level character with 1st level abilities. You're just confronting the same thing from another direction.

Omegonthesane · Post by **Omegonthesane** » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:27 am

Agreed with deaddmwalking that using wish loops to cast 8th level spells when the caster should only have 7th is violating CR guidelines in a way that breaking the economy fundamentally is not.

Though that sort of concern is why towards the end of my first and possibly last time running a 3.Tome campaign the party got a ring that could explicitly only wish for items, and vaguely assumed that the Wish items for the two warring powers in the background were large structures that could not be brought into combat.