Urban Fantasy: How Many in the Conspiracy

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deaddmwalking
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Post by deaddmwalking »

With a roleplaying game, the importance of being able to communicate a lot of information quickly is important – using our shared understanding helps in a collaborative story. A statistical area isn’t ALWAYS a bad idea, but it certainly isn’t the best default assumption.

It’s possible to look at populations and geography at any scale: globally, nationally, territorially, locally. In a role-playing game, having the scale communicate information is important. If you talk about the United States as a whole, you can’t be anything but vague. It’s important to use regions that are small enough to seem different. You could use regions that correspond to states; you could use regions that correspond to regions; you could even use areas that correspond to statistical areas. The problem is that the scale of some of those regions do an insufficient job of maintaining conservation of detail.

Previously, you suggested that “New York is probably like 8 domains that are all physically small and jam packed with humanity”. New York is a big place and it has a lot of interesting things going on, so clearly breaking it up into ‘digestible chunks’ seems like a good idea. As previously discussed, there are 8.6 Million people in New York City. That population is roughly equal to the entire population of neighboring state of New Jersey. The population of the statistical area is over 20 million – it’s so big that they call it the Tristate Area even though it includes one county in a fourth state. More than half of New Jersey is included and nearly half of Conneticut. Even though Long Island is included, it is a very different place than Manhattan – it’s primarily rural farms. Any description of New York City that has to talk about the important of dairy farming to the region is missing the point. In order to talk about the New York that matters for gaming purposes, you need to tighten your focus. Even if you include just the actual City of New York, it may be too big a setting to do justice with a single book. To address that, you most likely want to further subdivide the city into manageable chunks that themselves have meaning. The differences between Manhattan and the Bronx are not only generally well understood by people OUTSIDE the city, they’re defining features of life inside the city. While there are variations WITHIN each borough, the fact that you can characterize them easily and make them distinct contributes to the benefit of setting your game in one over the other.

Clearly, if you set a game in the Bronx, you aren’t particularly far from what happens in Queens, and you might roll over and participate. But there’s still a benefit to keeping the game in a definable area that can be easily grokked by your players. What’s interesting is that the areas that have cultural cachet are primarily cities. My wife spends a lot of time in France. When we lived in Iowa City, Iowa, she would get blank stares. When she said it was next to Illinois, she would get blank stares. When she said it was near Chicago, people understood what that meant.

Now, just like New York is a huge city, the entire Bay Area is a hug area – in fact the population of the San Jose-SanFrancisco-Oakland CSA is close to the population of New York. But just as you want to have a chance to distinguish the boroughs, it makes sense to break up this region in understandable and easily differentiated sections. You want to be able to compare and contrast San Francisco and Oakland and it’s not hard to do. For instance, San Francisco is roughly 50% white and only 6% black; Oakland is significantly more racially diverse with more than half the population black or Latino and only 1/3 white.

If you set a game in San Francisco (as opposed to Oakland), you have plenty of material to build your game around. You literally can spill ink indefinitely without running out of things to say. You can talk about Chinatown and the Financial District, and you’re going to be able to make the city come alive with the level of detail you can delve into by breaking into something manageable.

Now, New Orleans is where things MIGHT make sense in the statistical area, but I remain unconvinced. New Orleans has a population of under 400k; the statistical area is around 1.3 Million. If it makes sense to break up New York into areas of less than 2 million; and it makes sense to break up the Bay Area into chunks that are less than 2 million, it might make sense to take an area of Louisiana with less than 2 million people.

On the other hand, an even distribution would have 2/3 of the supernatural population outside of New Orleans. Did you know that the New Orleans statistical area is officially the ‘New Orleans – Metairie – Hammond combined statistical area’? If I was pitching my game and I said we were going to be based in Hammond, would that mean anything to you? New Orleans is a world-renowned destination – there is so much happening there that of course you’re going to want to make it your focus. The French Quarter has cachet all on its own. Bourbon Street is internationally recognized – there are few cities where you the name of a street is nearly as famous as the city itself! If you set a game in New Orleans, sure, you’re going to spend a few paragraphs talking about the surrounding area (like mentioning the junk-strewn property that they dump 50-gallon drums filled with the bodies of the dead). But that doesn’t mean ‘swamps near New Orleans’ will need the same amount of descriptive text as the city – where factions are based and politics and potential combat tends to happen…

But rather than address anything I’ve laid out here, there’s a really easy way to find out or prove me wrong. You started breaking out the supernatural presence in New Orleans.
”Frank Trollman” wrote:The expected number of Luminaries for such a region is 145, and since this is our model domain, that's exactly the number we are going with. Locally, the most common kin are Vampires and Witches (40 each), followed by Lycanthropes and Leviathan (20 each), with "others" making up the rest. With just a handful of Animates and Transhumans, you have about 10 Steves - various Demons, Ghosts, Elves, Ancient Tree Spirits, and so on.

The next important thing is what Orion calls "Trash Tier Supernaturals." These are important, because we're talking about New Orleans and obviously we want to have a significant Zombie and Fairy population. Nevertheless, there don't need to be more than twenty or thirty of any of these guys. Between Zombies, Fairies, Goblins, Haunts, and a bare handful of Vampire Spawn and cannibal Mutants, you have 50-60 of these creatures.

The next important thing are what Blade calls "Familiars" and what Masquerade called "Ghouls." That is: humans who explicitly work for supernatural society. Some of them are Fausts, people who are "in the know" and have special and marketable skills that make them valuable to the Kin. Some are Renfields, people who have been dominated by some supernatural creature and either gifted with some magic benefit or just enslaved into depravity. Maybe a bit of both. And finally, some are just fanatics - people who follow one or more supernatural because they are a bit unhinged. All in all, I see there being like 600 of these people, split between the powerful and influential and just randos that have been scooped off the street to be used as sex slaves or thug #3.
Why don’t you continue developing your model of New Orleans – show me how you expect those 40 vampires to have factions and lairs. I contend that you haven’t allotted enough to fill out the roles that you want to cover for a game set in New Orleans. I further contend that if you allocate your luminaries evenly (ie, 1 per 10k, meaning fewer than 1/3 are in the City proper), you’re going to find it is even more obvious. Keep in mind, we’re proposing a game where Vampires are REAL and exist in the fabric of our society. With vampires being a fancy, New Orleans has quite a few well-known Vampire stories, as well as other supernaturals. If these are the ones who nearly broke the Masquerade, how many more must exist in the shadows?
Last edited by deaddmwalking on Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

DeadDMWalking wrote:It’s possible to look at populations and geography at any scale: globally, nationally, territorially, locally. In a role-playing game, having the scale communicate information is important.
Sure. But you notice how fucking none of the scales you just listed are "arbitrary administrative borders based on historical city incorporation and charters." You're the one saying that we shouldn't include the creepy mansions on the outskirts of town because they are technically outside the city limits. You are the one saying that we shouldn't concern ourselves with Batman in our discussions of Gotham City because Wayne Manor is technically in New Jersey. And yet when you named four potential scales you might use, fucking none of them excluded the creepy mansion on 666 Shadowbrook Road.

The creepy mansions on the outskirts of town are not in the city limits. But they are local, they are in the territory. They are genre fucking appropriate. The only argument you've actually made is that you personally are very bad at google searches and keep leaving these populations off when looking up various cities and trying (and failing) to make other points. And a failure to google search cities and regions on your part does not constitute a world building criteria for me. It just doesn't.
DDMW wrote: Did you know that the New Orleans statistical area is officially the ‘New Orleans – Metairie – Hammond combined statistical area’?
Yes I did know that. As evidenced by the fact that I had already pointed out that "The New Orleans Mafia" was based out of Metairie for several decades out of the last century. Obviously, when you're discussing New Orleans as a region and crime and monsters and stuff, you want to discuss - or at least be able to discuss - the crime group whose actual name is "The New Orleans Mafia."

Cutting Metairie out of New Orleans doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense from the standpoint of local flavor, it doesn't make any sense from the standpoint of character freedom of movement. It just doesn't make any sense. Metairie is part of New Orleans. It's just an unincorporated area in Jefferson Parish that is contiguous with the rest of New Orleans geographically, culturally, and economically.
DDMW wrote:Why don’t you continue developing your model of New Orleans – show me how you expect those 40 vampires to have factions and lairs. I contend that you haven’t allotted enough to fill out the roles that you want to cover for a game set in New Orleans.
The whole point is that you have factions among the 145. So the council isn't 7 vampires, it's 3 vampires, 2 witches, a Fish Monster, and a Demon. If the game were entirely about vampires, then you'd want all 145 to be vampires. Obviously. But if The Kin include Witches and Frankenstein's Monster and Werewolves and shit, then they don't.

In any case, since individual Kin are powerful and magic and a lot of them have human Renfields, it's OK for things to be pretty top heavy. So you have a Prince and a Council of Seven and each of the members of the Council are shit like the Marshal and the Seneschal and shit, and they all have 3 Kin working for them, and that's 29 members of the domain's government out of a population of 145. And there's probably three 5-member trouble shooter packs, bringing the syndicate faction to 44. And you have a slightly larger number of Kindred who aren't specifically part of that hierarchy but mostly go along with whatever they say and like show up to the Prince's parties and shit, and that's another 50 or so. And that still leaves around 50 creatures who either aren't with the program or are even members of antagonist factions.

That's plenty. That's more than plenty. You only think it's a problem because you are brain locked into trying to divide the vampires into 13 groups and then have squabbling inside the separate groups of vampires. But that has always been a terrible idea for tabletop, because the player characters won't be the same flavor of vampire even if they are all vampires. All the political factions and units have to be racially mixed, because all the player character tables are going to be racially mixed.

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Post by jadagul »

Okay, somehow y'all are managing to focus almost exclusively on examples I have personal experience with, so I guess I'm still in this conversation.

It is true that if you talk to someone who lives in Kentucky and say "I'm from Hammond", they'll have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. And so you say "I'm from New Orleans". But importantly, you say that even if you are in fact from Hammond. Because saying you're "from New Orleans" is essentially correct and also communicates effectively.

(True story: while living in California, one of my friends said "hey, you should meet my friend, she's also from New Orleans!" So we meet, and I ask her what part of New Orleans she's from. And she gets embarrassed expression on her face and says, "Mandeville.")

But the point is that, while technically she didn't live in the city of New Orleans, and lived in was was relatively considered Hicksville, it's basically accurate to say she was in New Orleans. "Hey, while we're in New Orleans we should visit your parents" is sensible. "If you go to New Orleans, you should ask her where to visit, since she's from there" is sensible. And when I was growing up, I definitely had friends and classmates who lived in Mandeville, even if that was a bit of a commute.

Now sure, if you're setting a game in New Orleans, you want to make a distinction among Metairie and New Orleans and the West Bank and Hammond and Mandeville, and keep the option of going out to Destrehan or even Houma or Thibodaux or someplace like that, which aren't in the CSA but are pretty close.

Those places are all distinct. And they have different flavors and styles. But they're also all part of the playspace, and probably part of the same political unit. (I could see attaching Thobodaux to Baton Rouge instead; I could see an adventure about trying to flip it from one to the other, and that could be cool). You don't gain anything from insisting that Metairie is a totally different location with an independent power structure. As a teenager, I walked from Mid-City New Orleans to Metairie because the bus was running late.

You could split Metairie off politically. I could imagine that the Prince has one duke in charge of New Orleans proper, and one in charge of Metairie, and one in charge of Hammond, or something. But they might as well be the same domain.

And they are fully interactive. People in New Orleans go to Metairie all the time; people in Metairie go to New Orleans all the time. I had to look up where the border is even though I grew up like three hundred feet away from it. The only reason a Metairie inhabitant doesn't go into New Orleans is if they white-flighted out and are scared of black people living in city centers.

---

I will note that "divide your luminaries evenly" is at continual risk of becoming a straw man. No one thinks they need to be exactly even. No one thinks that Thibodaux needs to be allocated exactly one point five vampires; I guess the second one got his legs sliced off or something?

If you want to say the Domain Of New Orleans has 130 vampires, of whom 60 live in the city proper---instead of the 40 that it is officially allocated---because that's where everything is happening, I don't think anyone is going to object. But if you try to cram one thousand three hundred vampires into the metropolitan area so you can have four hundred in the city center, that looks ridiculous.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

deaddmwalking wrote:Clearly, if you set a game in the Bronx, you aren’t particularly far from what happens in Queens, and you might roll over and participate. But there’s still a benefit to keeping the game in a definable area that can be easily grokked by your players. What’s interesting is that the areas that have cultural cachet are primarily cities. My wife spends a lot of time in France. When we lived in Iowa City, Iowa, she would get blank stares. When she said it was next to Illinois, she would get blank stares. When she said it was near Chicago, people understood what that meant.
If I'm reading you right, you mean that instead of setting the thing in a well-researched area, you set the thing in...I don't want to say a stereotyped version of the area, but you only concentrate on things that are really well known?

Like, if you were doing France, you'd only do Paris, and the only real places in Paris you'd do would be the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre, because they're the ones everyone is sure to know without researching? Perhaps a bit more extreme that you mean, but the same general idea?

On one hand, any number of movies and TV shows go down that route, and it works for them. On the other, if you game is going to be set for any length of time somewhere, surely people are going to want to know what's beyond the immediate locality?
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Post by deaddmwalking »

If you're setting your game in New Orleans, you reference the surroundings, but they're unlikely to the focus. If you set a game in Los Angeles, you pick a point that is well developed so the players can know it. I'm not opposed to the environs being a part of things - I even referenced above how you'd want to include swamp areas in a New Orleans But statistical areas are not a good way of determining those areas. In the New York statistical area the scale is simply too big.

Effectively, if you'd tell strangers you're from that area, it should probably be included. Notably, people from New Jersey do not claim to live in New York City. Now with New Orleans you're not going to have another major domain abutting, so go crazy. In Los Angeles or New York, where it is densely packed and domains are geographically small, you need a focus that is much tighter.

If I were doing Paris I would reference Euro Disney, Charles De Gaul International airport and Versilles (all outside the city) because they aren't close to anything (they were built outside the city for a reason) but I wouldn't spend a lot of inl on the tiny villages scattered in every direction. I really would focus on the urban core. I would also try to express the charm of the city. Depending on the types of stories I want to tell, making the Latin Quarter thr dest of power rather than the tenements along the RER toward the airport is going to affect things. I lean toward gothic romance with ennui and relatively high amounts of intra-supernatural violence.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

jadagul wrote: I will note that "divide your luminaries evenly" is at continual risk of becoming a straw man. No one thinks they need to be exactly even. No one thinks that Thibodaux needs to be allocated exactly one point five vampires; I guess the second one got his legs sliced off or something?
Actually...
FrankTrollman wrote:
DDMW wrote:One shouldn't be saying 'this city has a population of x, so it should have x divided by 10,000 vampires'.
No. That's pretty much exactly what you should be saying.
Despite agreeing that it could make sense for a higher than average concentration, Frank seems dead-set against it.

Now, since he did actually double the number of supernaturals by changing the 1:10000 to Luminaries, the numbers are MUCH BETTER. But since there's no reason on the table to determine how Vampires and other Supernaturals maintain this ratio in all times in all places, I still maintain that having a range for 'normal' makes sense; with some places having dense supernatural populations; some having sparse supernatural populations.

While California and Siberia have the same population, Siberia is larger in land area than the entire United States.

I maintain that the 1:10000 is effectively an arbitrary number and that it should vary in different places/regions. Populations choosing to congregate in certain areas and remain sparser in others is helpful for a number of reasons. Again and still, if you set a major concentration of vampires in Pasadena, you don't have to have the same concentration in Glendale. If you have a major concentration of vampires in New Orleans, you don't have to have the same concentration in Hammond.

As far as choosing existing political units, I'm not the only one who has done so. There's no reason why Montana should be a single domain encompassing the 4th largest state, versus divided between three neighboring states. The reason using a communicable existing division is helpful is because it already exists - if Boise has a domain, it doesn't have to stop right at the Montana border, but it becomes harder to explain.

Cities loom large in the imagination, so it makes sense to anchor a domain to a major city. But there's no reason why you couldn't divide up your regions by House of Representatives Districts - that at least would give you relatively even population groups! But cities DO make sense. Tolstoy said: "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." Cities are like that - suburbs and rural areas are very similar throughout the country - sure the terrain may differ, the types of farms you find might be different, but the fact that they're thinly populated means they don't give rise to a 'distinct culture'. Cities do. In fact, in large cities, each region is known for a 'distinct culture'. In Los Angles, Chinatown is different from Olvera Street even though they're literally right next to each other. You don't get that in small towns.
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Post by kzt »

deaddmwalking wrote: Notably, people from New Jersey do not claim to live in New York City. Now with New Orleans you're not going to have another major domain abutting, so go crazy. In Los Angeles or New York, where it is densely packed and domains are geographically small, you need a focus that is much tighter.
I lived in "Chicago" from the time I was 14 until I was 35 other then school etc. But actually I never lived "in" Chicago, even when I worked in downtown. I lived in Arlington Heights, Gurnee and Des Plaines. But unless I'm talking to someone from "Chicago" I'm not going to make a distinction.

And no, LA isn't really tightly packed. LA County is the size of the state of Connecticut.
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Post by erik »

But there's no reason why you couldn't divide up your regions by House of Representatives Districts - that at least would give you relatively even population groups!
Well, gerrymandering makes it all sorts of stupid but in theory that would be an ok way to break up domains. In practice not at all useful. I’m sure some domains would respect state or county or city or precinct borders just out of efficacy and if there are a manageable number of domains then it’s pretty doable to make common sense borders. If every single city over 100k pop is a separate domain then you’re fucked.
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Post by Username17 »

I'm not sure DeadDMWalking is a human being, considering how divorced his claims are about life in and around human civilization is from everyone else's. But there's another issue that I think needs to be talked about: dividing up megacities.

First of all, there aren't any areas of a megacity that are "off limits" when it comes to storytelling. A story set in New York might plausibly have characters go to or interact with something in Nassau or Newark. You could certainly go to a Giants game in East Rutherford or Princeton University and those aren't even in New York state. The Statue of Fucking Liberty is technically part of the city, county, and state of New York but is literally entirely surrounded by New Jersey.

Now the amount of people and land area in a region are pretty much meaningless numbers. It's not a problem for a domain to be rural like Montana or even for it to be wilderness like Amazonia or Yukon, because the number of characters in the monkey sphere doesn't change when they sleep physically far apart and have to go on long trips to have face to face meetings. But also too the number of people in background crowd scenes doesn't really matter. If the conversation in the diner is happening with no one walking down the street out the window, that's fine and if it's happening with hundreds of people walking outside the window that is also fine. They don't have speaking lines so however many there are or are not is as much a question of aesthetics as the kinds of trees in a forest or the amount of snow that falls in winter.

There is nonetheless the desire to chop up New York into chunks when discussing an urban fantasy setting. Not because there are too many humans in New York, and not because it is too physically large. It's not because there are too many locations you might plausibly want to or be able to go. Indeed, all of those things pressure the opposite direction. The fact that you might want to go off into Long Island Suburbs or take the bridge into New Jersey or whatever is a strong incentive to leave the New York metropolitan area as a single unit for people to play around in. The desire to chop up New York is solely and exclusively because there are too many supernaturals in New York to keep track of them all.

The New York Metropolitan Area has a population over twenty million and thus has presumably over two thousand Kindred in it. That's a lot of golems and vampires and demons and elves and shit. It's substantially larger than the player's monkey sphere, so they won't know or care about all those dudes. If you play in New York, you're going to want to interact with less than 20% of the total supernatural population. To the extent that the other supernatural creatures exist at all, they might as well be the people outside the diner window - extras who walk purposelessly in the background to provide a sense of setting rather than being named characters in their own right.

Now there are various contingencies and explanations you could use to have the number of characters the players interact with be a reasonable amount and still have things take place in New York. You could have there be several trouble shooter teams that are nominally off investigating their own haunted apartments and skin eating serial killers and shit. You could have the player characters be in charge of a single ward of the region, such that problems in Queens are not technically their problem. Or fucking whatever.

But it's certainly attractive to chop New York into multiple rival domains such that the number of characters who matter politically in the domain the players are in is somewhat more management than "over two thousand."

And note also that this incentive to chop up megacities only exists because of the number of Kin. This means that the larger you make the Kin to Humans demographic ratio, the more places in the world you have this ambivalence where you're incentivized to chop them into pieces that don't make sense. At 1:10,000 Kin:Humans, the greater New Orleans area has 145 Kin, but at 1:1,000 it would have over one thousand four hundred and things being unmanageable.

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Post by DrPraetor »

Urban stories want to have turf wars between rival gangs anyway; rural adventures generally don't ( notwithstanding the football game today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo_War ).

You want an array of relations between different domains within the city.
First, you do want some oversized domains. You don't want an 800 kin megadomain covering NYC, but a 400 kin megadomain covering Manhattan and Brooklyn would be reasonable; it's ruled by a Grand Prince or something, who takes fealty from the princes of adjoining domains.

Then, while you absolutely do want to go into Elizabeth NJ, it can go ahead and have a rival Prince who, while not kill on sight, is engaged in cold war shenanigans with the Grand Prince of Manhattan.

So your monkey sphere would be overextended in NYC as a whole, but if you live in Queens the politicking is mostly around the O(200) Kin in that domain, with occasional guest players from neighboring domains who are important in your more local politics or who either come to Queens or harass when you go to New Jersey.

Incidentally, NYC is an interesting example of a place where people travel remarkably little within the city. At least, that was my experience living there (and still my experience when I visit, trying to get my friends to travel to different boroughs for stuff.)
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Post by erik »

You don't want an 800 kin megadomain covering NYC, but a 400 kin megadomain covering Manhattan and Brooklyn would be reasonable; it's ruled by a Grand Prince or something, who takes fealty from the princes of adjoining domains.
Ghost damn I need to take a nap or something. I almost failed against this asking why the fuck kilo-inches was an acceptable measurement.

Autocorrect changed railed to failed. Seems legit.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

FrankTrollman wrote:The New York Metropolitan Area has a population over twenty million and thus has presumably over two thousand Kindred in it. That's a lot of golems and vampires and demons and elves and shit. It's substantially larger than the player's monkey sphere, so they won't know or care about all those dudes. If you play in New York, you're going to want to interact with less than 20% of the total supernatural population. To the extent that the other supernatural creatures exist at all, they might as well be the people outside the diner window - extras who walk purposelessly in the background to provide a sense of setting rather than being named characters in their own right.

Now there are various contingencies and explanations you could use to have the number of characters the players interact with be a reasonable amount and still have things take place in New York. You could have there be several trouble shooter teams that are nominally off investigating their own haunted apartments and skin eating serial killers and shit. You could have the player characters be in charge of a single ward of the region, such that problems in Queens are not technically their problem. Or fucking whatever.

But it's certainly attractive to chop New York into multiple rival domains such that the number of characters who matter politically in the domain the players are in is somewhat more management than "over two thousand."
I might be missing something, but I'm not seeing the problem there. Why is it a problem to have more supernatural creatures than you care about, and just have some as unimportant extras, the same way you don't care about most non-supernaturals? Or the same way you don't care about the majority of inhabitants in a non-urban fantasy setting such as, say, Sigil?
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Post by erik »

In this case the supernaturals are each named individuals who are badasses in their own right. It's tougher to justify using the PCs for adventures if they're 5 out of 1,000, whereas it is a bit more believable to be 5 out of 100 who are chosen to deal with something. Also it might strain disbelief that there's like 100+ supernaturals in oodles of cities and somehow keeping it under wraps everywhere. It may be a viable game to have monster villages everywhere, but I think the idea here is to have that be a bit more rare.
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Post by rampaging-poet »

FrankTrollman wrote:If you wanted to set a game in Montana, this would be a core reason why. The very Fargoish remoteness of everything and everyone is a core, probably the core reason you'd set a story there at all.
Sure, if you're looking at a map and picking a place. However, one of the benefits of urban fantasy is being able to set things in "your own backyard." Presumably some players won't pick Montana because distance and isolation are core themes of their campaigns - they'll pick it because they live there.

Another example: Vancouver Island, BC. The island as a whole has a population of about 770,000. That's slightly underpopulated, but it's still "about a million." We can throw in some of the outlying islands and possibly a few bits of coastline that wouldn't fit closer with one of the domains on the mainland and round up to 80 Kin for the whole domain.

If I were to set a campaign on the island as a whole, that's honestly enough. Some factions end up under-represented, but it's still workable. The problem is I'm not particularly familiar with large swathes of the island. I'm mostly just familiar with my hometown and Victoria. Running a campaign in Victoria is pretty tricky with these numbers.

With the After Sundown 40/40/20 split of kin to cities/wilds/towns, the Greater Victoria Area gets 32 Kin. That's far less than the 100 or so the numbers you're using "expect" to have available so each faction can get adequate representation.

With four players, they alone account for 1/8th of the kin in the whole city. If unaligned monsters like Giant Animals in the woods or a Poltergeist downtown also take up slots like they do in your New Orleans example, there's less than four slots available for each of After Sundown's seven Syndicates. The PCs' Band will outnumber at least one Syndicate in the provincial capital!

I think that's part of what DeadDMWalking is getting at with Knoxville. It's easy to add more rural territory to hit a population target, but doing so waters down the players' familiarity with the domain as a whole when the game's set in their own backyard. Staring at the Wikipedia page for Port Hardy isn't appreciably different that scouring the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. Once a domain expands beyond the experience of the players, the same research is required.

Clearly no hard-and-fast rule can solve both the "NYC is crowded" problem and the "Canada is empty" problem simultaneously. However, having some textual support for cities with many more monsters than normal is a huge boon to players living in smaller cities. Throwing in one or two reasons for supernaturals to congregate and using somewhat larger safety margins on murder rates would accommodate this.

All that said, thanks for pointing out there are flat-out wilderness domains up here. Having some setting examples for rural and wilderness domains is important as well! They support people who don't live in cities at all, and they're an interesting mode of play in their own right.
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Post by Wiseman »

It's also important to remember that demographics are rarely (if ever!) evenly dispersed. It's possible that an area with a population that might tehincally allow for only 1 supernatural to have hundreds for whatever reason. Or that hugely populated areas might be supernatural deserts for whatever reason.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Wiseman wrote:It's also important to remember that demographics are rarely (if ever!) evenly dispersed. It's possible that an area with a population that might tehincally allow for only 1 supernatural to have hundreds for whatever reason. Or that hugely populated areas might be supernatural deserts for whatever reason.
Which should be codified with ranges. WW had every place they detailed be an exception to the demographics they created. Building in some flexibility with normal concentrations (dense, average, sparse) seems reasonable - the overall rate of supernaturals globally could be the same, but any single location could vary. Not only would that be more true to life, it could be a way to further differentiate otherwise similar places.

And while vampires might be the most numerous supernaturals, I'd propose an ordering convention like 3.x city racial divisions. In a dwarven city, humans are the second most common race. Having a city where witches are the most common supernatural (I'm looking at you Salem MA) isn't going to work everywhere, but it certainly works in some places.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

kzt wrote:
deaddmwalking wrote: Notably, people from New Jersey do not claim to live in New York City. Now with New Orleans you're not going to have another major domain abutting, so go crazy. In Los Angeles or New York, where it is densely packed and domains are geographically small, you need a focus that is much tighter.
And no, LA isn't really tightly packed. LA County is the size of the state of Connecticut.
Oh, I forgot that urban sprawl is complicated and while no part of LA is as dense as the most dense parts of NY, I remember when this was announced. If you look for more articles you'll find that Queens has some very low density parts which impacted the average.
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Post by Username17 »

deaddmwalking wrote: Which should be codified with ranges. WW had every place they detailed be an exception to the demographics they created. Building in some flexibility with normal concentrations (dense, average, sparse) seems reasonable - the overall rate of supernaturals globally could be the same, but any single location could vary. Not only would that be more true to life, it could be a way to further differentiate otherwise similar places.
I guess. I mean, sure in an abstract fashion it would make sense if the ratio were 1:9000 in one place and 1:11000 in another, but there's no particular need for that. There are no regions in the continental United States that are unplayable without significantly fudging the numbers. IT would be totally fine if every single domain had exactly 1:10,000. It might as well be slightly higher or lower than that in any particular place, but there's nothing to be gained by having numbers that are substantially different from that.

Yes, 1:10,000 is just a rough guideline. Obviously. But there's no benefit in getting off into the weeds on how it might vary slightly in one place or another.
And while vampires might be the most numerous supernaturals, I'd propose an ordering convention like 3.x city racial divisions. In a dwarven city, humans are the second most common race. Having a city where witches are the most common supernatural (I'm looking at you Salem MA) isn't going to work everywhere, but it certainly works in some places.
This is something I completely agree with. The distribution of luminaries should definitely be different in different places.

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Post by deaddmwalking »

The benefit is three-fold.

First of all, there's value in setting clear shared expectations. If a GM wants to set a game in a particular location that seems too small (or chooses to constrain the geography to what they're generally familiar with) they can still follow the rules without creating an exception - essentially, by clearly stating that there is a normal range, you leave GMs unfettered to make adjustments that they see as reasonable without 'breaking' the rules.

Secondly, there are places where LOTS of people actually claim to be supernaturals. For example, this article makes the following claim:
Vox wrote:And both narratives are also at odds with the generic “spookiness” that makes up much of the town’s touristic appeal, particularly in Halloween season. (Of Salem’s 40,000 residents, between 800 and 1,600 identify as witches, with many working in or through the town’s witch shops, or in witch-related tourism industries, such as the city’s myriad magic-themed walking tours.
Clearly, they have not 'broken' the masquerade. Using the lower bound claimed by the article (800), witches make up a ratio of 1:50 of normal humans. Now, I'm not sure how many CAN be real, versus CLAIM to be real before it is obviously REAL, but since the type of witches we're talking about AREN'T REAL, and we're pretending that they are and they fit seamlessly into the real world, but even if only one in 50 'practicing witches' were real witches, you'd have a ratio of 1:2500.

It certainly seems reasonable to me to choose numbers where a place like Salem is UNUSUAL but not outside of the established rules.

Thirdly, in the event that a location has not been previously codified, it wouldn't be hard to create a random generator that spits these out and helps make locations quickly. Using 1:10000 Luminaries as a default for GMs working without tools isn't crazy - the math is pretty easy (dividing them up by category is a BIT tricky, but reasonably okay).

Speaking of Luminaries, I'd suggest a ratio of 1:5000 to 1:7500 as Dense (25% chance), 1:7501-1250 (50% chance) as Average, 1251-1500 (25% chance) as Sparse. Again, following these ratios should still average to 1:10k and open up flexibility. Not only would this be easy to run in a calculator, using a percentile dice you can simply add the result (x10) to 5000 to determine the local ratio. For example, I rolled 75, which would result in a ratio of 1:1250 (the high end of Average).

Humans often don't actually care about the numbers, but a fixed concentration at all places everywhere beggars belief. That's just not how the world works. You can build in local variations without breaking the world. Again and still, if you can, why wouldn't you want to?

I contend that content generation appeals to a certain element of the player base. Choosing values is fine - if I want to make Dongguan a less attractive place to visit, I can set the ratio lower than average; at the same ratio Hong Kong would have an equal number of Luminaries. I can think of a lot of reasons why Hong Kong would make a better place to set the game.

As far as geographic scale goes, I think it's important to bear in mind that with modern travel, distance is not always the determining factor. Driving from Billings MT to Pierre SD takes over 7 hours. Flying from Billings MT to LAX can take 4 hours 9 minutes total (leave before 6pm and arrive at 9:30 (10:30 in Billings). You'd go twice as far in roughly half the time. The world is small enough with modern technology that you can't rule out ANY destination in a relatively short amount of time. Sure, PCs have freedom to go anywhere at anytime, and no publisher is going to have every location people might want to use laid out in advance, but providing solid randomization techniques helps - GMs with a specific preference might choose what they like within the established ranges, but often people DON'T care, and they're looking for ways to make meaningless choices easy and convenient without making everyplace identical. Density is just one more tool to consider.
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Post by Trill »

deaddmwalking wrote:Speaking of Luminaries, I'd suggest a ratio of 1:5000 to 1:7500 as Dense (25% chance), 1:7501-1250 (50% chance) as Average, 1251-1500 (25% chance) as Sparse.
What
First of all your ranges overlap. 1:1400 is apparently both Average and Sparse and 1:6000 is both Dense and Average
Second your ranges are out of order. 1:7500 is far sparser than 1:2000
Did you perhaps mean "1:(7500+) to 1:5000 is Sparse, 1:4999 to 1:1500 is Average, 1:1499 to 1:(1250-) is Dense"?
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Post by Axebird »

Missed a zero on a bunch of them, I think:

1:5000 - 1:7500 as Dense
1:7501 - 1:12500 as Average
1:12510 - 1:15000 as Sparse
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Post by kzt »

When you got from vampires to magicians wouldn't the rules change? Predators need a reasonable predator/prey relationship. So you can't get crazy. And there appear to be obvious survival benefits to being the first or second toughest vampire in Gallop NM as opposed to being the 9763rd toughest in NYC.

Is there any similar reason for witches or whatever to not clump as there are for vampires and other predators?
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Post by Username17 »

kzt wrote:When you got from vampires to magicians wouldn't the rules change? Predators need a reasonable predator/prey relationship. So you can't get crazy. And there appear to be obvious survival benefits to being the first or second toughest vampire in Gallop NM as opposed to being the 9763rd toughest in NYC.

Is there any similar reason for witches or whatever to not clump as there are for vampires and other predators?
Well, what you want is for Witches to clump, but not clump so much that you have a single coven in Houston with a thousand members. Having Witches be in small covens spread across the country is obviously what you want from a storytelling standpoint. And from a roleplaying standpoint you want Witches who have covens that include Vampires and Golems and shit.

There's a lot of reasons for that sort of thing. The Ars Magica rationale is that there are magical resources spread out across the land and you have different mages squabbling over different piles of fire gems, for example. That works fine. And the Sith Lord rationale is that your wizards are brooding dickwads that like to be in small groups and not large groups. That is also fine.

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Post by violence in the media »

Isn't the 1:10000 ratio supposed to be the baseline? Obviously, people are going to snowflake things up for their Knoxville or Billings local game and have however many creatures they feel are necessary. But when/if people write material for the setting at large, 1:10k is the assumed starting point. If a player in the Knoxville/Billings game decides to fly off to some place the MC hasn't anticipated, the 1:10k assumed ratio comes into effect.

1:10k is just the assumption that you should write up a reason for deviating from when planning your Lakeland by Night campaign.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

Axebird wrote:Missed a zero on a bunch of them, I think:

1:5000 - 1:7500 as Dense
1:7501 - 1:12500 as Average
1:12510 - 1:15000 as Sparse
Yeah - this, except 12501 to 15000 as Sparse. I did miss some zeroes.
violence in the media wrote:Isn't the 1:10000 ratio supposed to be the baseline? Obviously, people are going to snowflake things up for their Knoxville or Billings local game and have however many creatures they feel are necessary. But when/if people write material for the setting at large, 1:10k is the assumed starting point. If a player in the Knoxville/Billings game decides to fly off to some place the MC hasn't anticipated, the 1:10k assumed ratio comes into effect.

1:10k is just the assumption that you should write up a reason for deviating from when planning your Lakeland by Night campaign.
I think that people should feel free to 'snowflake' their campaign. Rule zero has a long history in RPGs. But it's kind of a shitty system if you're EXPECTING people to have to constantly make exceptions. Building in some flexibility and variety allows GMs to build the campaign they want WITHOUT stepping out of the established guidelines. Again, since this is a game of shared expectations, building in the EXPECTATION that the specific number of supernaturals may vary from the 'average' ensure that the shared expectations are met.

Looking at Knoxville, the population is 187,000 in the city. Sure, Sevierville is 'in the area' but for a game set in Knoxville, I'd like to think of it as a different place that the players may go to and/or the folks there might start moving in on Knoxville, but ultimately that's something I'd probably leave undefined until it is useful to clarify. For example, after a month of gaming, I might want to introduce a new 'gang' trying to move in on the PCs territory - giving them a base in Sevierville as well as resources from that area can be helpful.

Now, for reference, there are just shy of 17k people in Sevierville, so I'm only 'allotted' 1-2 Luminaries.

Several months of game time later, it might be appropriate to think of the Knoxville Metro Area as a single unit when the players have come to dominate it, and then I can have them intrigue against the Lexington-Fayette Metropolitan area, or the Nashville Metro area. Conveniently, Dolly Parton has a connection to both Sevierville and Nashville, so having her Nashville posse ride in to help her Sevierville Seneschal would be reasonable. But these kinds of things PROBABLY won't be fully developed at the start of play - and they may never happen if the PCs opt to head to Chicago and play in a bigger sandbox.

I'm also unlikely to involve Oak Ridge (west of the city) with Sevierville (south of the city). Due to the development of the atomic bomb and the existing research still going on (and the HIGH SECURITY) I'd have a very different aesthetic for vampires based there - they'd be unlikely allies.

In a D&D game, it's not uncommon to start with a small area - a town and surrounding countryside; then a province, then a continent, then the world, then the planes. Some of what constitutes a useful area will change over time based on the power and prestige of the PCs.

Using Knoxville, I know there are some regional variations I want to play up. Maryville has a Highland heritage celebrating the Scotch-Irish heritage; Sevierville/Pigeon Forge are very touristy and there is an obvious metaphor to play up on how 'tourist traps' bleed visitors; Oak Ridge and the connection to nuclear development and the military-industrial complex. Sometimes it's helpful to think of the area as a whole; other times it makes sense to think of it as related (but distinct) parts. Doing so allows me to ensure I maintain local flavors and aesthetics.
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