Superhero RPG that is not about wizards

[Foxwarrior]

So I just tried out Champions, partly because I'd heard good things about it here. But it seems a lot like mutants and masterminds after all, down to minions and power arrays being the same kind of bizarre accounting. It's almost as though m&m was based on champions.

Anyways, the point: both of these games are set up to heavily subsidize people who have several powers, or even an infinite grab bag of powers. Like some sort of wizard who's allowed to write their own spells. I realize comic books have wizard types in them, like Dr Strange, Groot, or Batman, but if I want to play an RPG about superhero wizards, there are plenty of fantasy and some urban fantasy RPGs to play.

What I'd like is a game where the most optimized, or close to most optimized kind of superhero is one who has just one or two super powers. Is there such a game? And is it any good?

For example:
The Hulk: he has one superpower, the ability to get big, tough, and strong. He can swing buses as clubs and make shockwaves by clapping because that's how super strength works in a comic book universe (king kong or the hulk buster could do those too), not because he's a muscle wizard who makes up any vaguely strength themed power.
Ant Man: he can shrink things, grow things, and control ants. A bit of a grab bag there but at least each one tries to be well defined.
Spiderman: he shoots sticky and nonsticky webs, notices things, and has some good stats.

[Username17]

Technically super strength and flight are ridiculous cheese in Champions. If you just fly around and punch people, or even just run really fast and punch people, it's pretty difficult for other characters to keep up. High speed bricks are so good at their job in that game that they have to self nerf to keep from overshadowing all the other characters.

-Username17

[Foxwarrior]

With the pricing of Variable Power Pool, "is a wizard who can do anything" is a side ability you can toss onto lots of characters.

So unless this Brick needs to put all their points into flying and punching, they can afford to also solve all noncombat problems too.

[CaptainComics]

I think you're going to be out of luck, because you're basically not counting a lot of powers that even the simple examples you've chosen have AND NEED to play like their comic book counterparts.

The Hulk - Being "big, tough, and strong" is never just one power in any game I've seen - it's at least three. Add on the different ways in which you can be those three things (resistance to physical attacks vs energy attacks, high lifting strength vs high damage output, etc.) it may be more. And that's not taking into account his ability to leap for miles, his regeneration, the transformation itself, or any need to give Banner himself powers (such as his possibly-superhuman intelligence or ability to invent or interact with weapons, devices, and robots). Heck, the Hulk has a weird ability that really only comes up when he's on the Defenders to see ghosts and astral forms - to be fair, you could leave that off and not bother anyone who matters, but it's an additional power that a guy who seems as simple as anything canonically has.

Ant-Man - Usually changing your own size and changing other peoples' sizes are separate powers. Using that on objects may be a third one. He can control ants, as well as pretty much any insect, and at least a few alien monsters that kind of look like insects. His helmet protects him from mind control, can tap into radio frequencies, can communicate with his sidekick Wasp, and sometimes can use a few sonic attacks (this was mostly in the EARTH'S MIGHTIEST HEROES cartoon). He is a brilliant inventor who always has a variety of vehicles and weapons that may or may not take advantage of his Pym Particles - which is usually at least a superhuman attribute and some points in a Gadgets or Equipment power.

Spider-Man - Once again, the webs are at least two powers - the swinging bit and the "catches thieves like flies" bit. Depending on the game, he doesn't just have "good stats", he has multiple superhuman abilities. He's tough enough to be shot multiple times and probably not die. "Notices things" is once again dramatically underselling his intellect and Spider-Sense. In addition he can, you know, STICK TO STUFF, and once again he's got an arsenal of weapons that he may or may not remember to use this issue, but the Spider-Tracers, Spider-Signal, and his special webbing are usually fairly consistent. Sometimes he can use the webbing to create other objects like parachutes and baseball bats.

Because even the simple-seeming superheroes actually break down to a wider variety of effects and powers than one might expect, the games that model them (and are any good) usually have to let players make pretty flexible characters.

The comics characters that actually fit your paradigm are more like the X-Men or the Legion of Super-Heroes. Cyclops has an optic blast. Jubilee shoots out mostly-useless fireworks. Matter-Eater Lad eats stuff, and Lightning Lad shoots lightning bolts. But those characters are so limited that they pretty much only exist in team books, and tend to be around to fill out a roster rather than have the main bulk of the plot. Main characters are almost never as simple as one or two powers and that's it - and therefore, neither are PCs.

Now, if that's a thing you want to do, probably the easiest thing to do is find a game where the system mostly works (insert your preferred system here), and then just reduce the levels, power points, or whatever the game uses so that the players are only allowed to pick one or two powers, and go from there.

[Foxwarrior]

Well, 1:

Depending on the game, he doesn't just have "good stats", he has multiple superhuman abilities. He's tough enough to be shot multiple times and probably not die.

That's exactly the sort of thing I mean by "has good stats". Some of his stats are better than a human can have, but they're just stats.

and 2:

Add on the different ways in which you can be those three things (resistance to physical attacks vs energy attacks, high lifting strength vs high damage output, etc.) it may be more. And that's not taking into account his ability to leap for miles, his regeneration, the transformation itself, or any need to give Banner himself powers (such as his possibly-superhuman intelligence or ability to invent or interact with weapons, devices, and robots).

So Bruce Banner has some great stats, and the Hulk has some great stats, and his power is the ability to swap which set he's using right now. (and also I guess the hulk can see astral forms? That does sound like a somewhat special sense) The thing is, Champions has it set up that you have to define what super strength and super intelligence actually mean on a per-character basis, but things like Devastation are, in comic book physics, the default, and the super strength stunts that you need to give your Hulk character the "Is a (muscle) wizard" power to do are things that every super strong character is likely to be able to do every once in a while. Similarly, if you want your Bruce Banner character to be able to actually use his super intellect to interact with weapons, devices, and robots, you can't just say that he's trained in mechanical design, you also have to give him the "Is a (gadget) wizard" power.

Edit: I guess I should clarify here. I don't mind that in order to specify what Hulking out does, you have to specify independently how much bigger he gets, how much heavier he gets, how much tougher he gets, how much stronger, how much better at running and jumping. I just mind that if you want him to do things with his strength, like clapping to make shockwaves, you have to give him special extra super powers to implement that.

[kzt]

With the pricing of Variable Power Pool, "is a wizard who can do anything" is a side ability you can toss onto lots of characters.

So unless this Brick needs to put all their points into flying and punching, they can afford to also solve all noncombat problems too.

The control costs of a VPP eats you alive. 60 + 30 gives you a roll of 11 or less to change powers taking a full turn to do so. When you go up to a comic pool you are at 1.5 points in control per active point. So a 60 point pool costs you 150 points. Luckily you don't have to pay END on the control cost. Plus VPPs, the concept and the powers in them require explicit GM approval.

Now if the GM will approve crazy stuff then you're fine. But the GMs NPC with their VPPs can also produce 1d RKA AP penetrating attacks that persist for 5 turns too. Or autofire one-hex area effect NNDs, whose defense is "something you don't have".

[Username17]

With the pricing of Variable Power Pool, "is a wizard who can do anything" is a side ability you can toss onto lots of characters.

So unless this Brick needs to put all their points into flying and punching, they can afford to also solve all noncombat problems too.

I think you are fundamentally not understanding how active point limitations work. A Variable Point Power Pool costs the active point limit plus the control cost. So if you want to be able to shoot 10die blasts, it's 50 points to start. Basically, any variable point power pool capable of generating an attack that you would bother wiping your ass with also costs nearly a third of your total point cost.

Flying and punching are pretty cheap. It leaves you plenty of points for skills and being a super genius intellect and shit if that's what you want to do. But being Variable Power Pool Guy comes with tremendous limits in terms of what your points can do.

Now if you're specifically calling out the fact that technically a "skill pool" where you had whatever skill you felt like having at any given moment would hypothetically cost only 10 points or so - the rules also suggest that the GM flatly reject that kind of thing because it's basically cheating.

Champions lets you build all kinds of broken ass shit. But Variable Power Point characters rarely number among those. It's very hard to play a Variable Power Pool character, and even harder to play one that's remotely effective.

-Username17

[Foxwarrior]

I think you are fundamentally not understanding how active point limitations work. A Variable Point Power Pool costs the active point limit plus the control cost. So if you want to be able to shoot 10die blasts, it's 50 points to start. Basically, any variable point power pool capable of generating an attack that you would bother wiping your ass with also costs nearly a third of your total point cost.

A VPP consists of two parts: the Pool (the pool of CP the character uses to buy powers) and the Control Cost (which dictates how powerful those powers can be). Power Modifiers apply only to the Control Cost.
...
A character with a Variable Power Pool can have any combination of powers whose total Real Costs don’t exceed the Pool of the VPP. No power in a VPP can have an Active Point cost higher than the Control Cost.

So it looks to me like, if you're willing to put Limitations on the powers you make up, you can have a pool smaller than the active point cost you want to use. And if you're willing to put Limitations on the variable power pool itself, you can have a control cost smaller than the active point cost you want to use.

But also, it's not actually the ability to make up whatever attacks you want that's the most excessive thing about Variable Power Pools. It's being able to solve any non-combat problem. How are you supposed to creatively solve a food crisis using only the ability to summon bees if your teammate can just switch to the "summon four-course meals" power in a few hours?

[CaptainComics]

Maybe I'm just not understanding what your actual complaint is. It sounded like you wanted a game where The Hulk just needs one or two powers, and I'm not aware of a game where having those powers is going to let you actually play The Hulk. However, some of your other comments make it seem like you are mainly concerned about the "spend your pool of points on powers every round/hour/day" that are often included in games.

Which is it? Or is it both?

I'm not familiar with every supers game on the market, but I've played Mutant & Masterminds, Silver Age Sentinels, and GURPS Supers, and I've at least read some editions of Champions and the various Marvel licensed games. None of those games let you tack on "Variable Powers" without significant expenditures of points to account for the flexibility these grant you. And I'm similarly not aware of any games that don't caveat such abilities as "GM-approval only." Running the risk of committing an Oberoni fallacy - why do you allow variable point pools at all if they're such a problem for you?

Again, I think the two categories of supers games I'm aware of are
1. Flexible enough to cover most character concepts, and therefore include some kind of Variable structure
2. Does not include a variable structure, and is also extremely limited in the kind of super heroes modeled by the system

Your best bet is to pick a system you like, and then tell the players they can't have variable powers. It's not ideal, but I don't think there's a game available that both functions in the general case and also disallows variable (or at least very flexible) abilities in the specific case.

How are you supposed to creatively solve a food crisis using only the ability to summon bees if your teammate can just switch to the "summon four-course meals" power in a few hours?

How are you going to solve that problem with "summon bees" in the first place, if the game doesn't allow you to allow that power to "stand in" for "summon four-course meals" in the first place? Is this a purely MTP thing, in your mind?

Magneto and Cosmic Boy both supposedly have the same power - the ability to create and manipulate magnetic fields. But Magneto is a world-shaking teamkiller, and Cosmic Boy is a wimp who gets taken out in the first few panels by a dude with pigtails. It's clear that from an effect standpoint, Magneto has "more powers" than Cosmic Boy. Which side of the spectrum are you trying to get to, and how would you expect to model the difference between these characters?

[Foxwarrior]

Well, if I knew exactly what it was that I wanted here, I could just write the system myself instead of asking someone else to point me to it.

How are you going to solve that problem with "summon bees" in the first place, if the game doesn't allow you to allow that power to "stand in" for "summon four-course meals" in the first place? Is this a purely MTP thing, in your mind?

I guess this is really a thread about me bitching about how I don't care much for pure effects-based system design.

Basically, it's like this:
"I ask my bees to fly to a neighboring city, where they take leftovers from people's plates and fly them back here to feed the starving people."
To which the system responds:
Effects-Based System: "Well, how many points is feeding all the starving people worth? [do some calculations] Ah, looks like you can almost afford to feed everyone."
Simulation Based System Like D&D3.5, at least with players who approach it that way: "So how fast can the bees fly, and how much can they carry? [do some calculations] Ah, looks like you can manage to feed five people per day."
Bear World: "Flip a coin. If it's heads, the people are fed. If it's tails, bears eat your bees before they can finish the job."
Gamey Game Game System Like D&D4: "Do people even have plates when you're not in an encounter with them?" Alternately "each bee has strength 1, which means it can carry 10 pounds, this turns out to be super easy"

Edit: I realize this is a bit inaccurate, Champions summons actually can do lots of things creatures can do and aren't just a simplistic effect.

[Josh_Kablack]

I'm an edition behind but the Hulk has well over a dozen powers in Champs terms:


Strength.
Increased PD
Increased ED
Resistant PD
Resistant ED
Regeneration / (however that works with healing in this edition)
maybe Damage Reduction on top of the defenses - the Hulk does seem relatively easy to deal minor damage to, but nigh-impossible to put down.
Superleap
Superleap with megascale
continous uncontrolled Aid to most of the above that increwses based on how far he failed his Enraged roll and or how long on the time chart he has been enraged. "The madder he gets, the stronger he gets"
A bunch of environmental Life Support options
Several varieties of no-range area of effect Energy Blasts. Deafening handclap, ground pounding shockwave, ripping the tarmac out from under a platoon of mooks
Multiform into Dr. Bruce Banner.


And that's not counting all the various weirdness in specific arcs -- I could put a fanboy argument together for the Hulk having dimensional travel powers.

[kzt]

I bought 6th edition but never got too far into it. The main thing seems to be that figured characteristics are gone - you have to buy them directly - and elemental control are gone. So bricks are more expensive as you don't get all that lovely end, pd and stun for free.

But the hulk is a massively powerful character, with a long list of very high powered effects. Not going to be cheap to do. You could do a lot with a muti-power, but it's big multi-power with limitations.

All the top tier Marvel or DC characters are crazy powerful, and if you write them up they are silly expensive.

[Josh_Kablack]

I think you are fundamentally not understanding how active point limitations work. A Variable Point Power Pool costs the active point limit plus the control cost. So if you want to be able to shoot 10die blasts, it's 50 points to start. Basically, any variable point power pool capable of generating an attack that you would bother wiping your ass with also costs nearly a third of your total point cost.

A VPP consists of two parts: the Pool (the pool of CP the character uses to buy powers) and the Control Cost (which dictates how powerful those powers can be). Power Modifiers apply only to the Control Cost.
...
A character with a Variable Power Pool can have any combination of powers whose total Real Costs don’t exceed the Pool of the VPP. No power in a VPP can have an Active Point cost higher than the Control Cost.

So it looks to me like, if you're willing to put Limitations on the powers you make up, you can have a pool smaller than the active point cost you want to use. And if you're willing to put Limitations on the variable power pool itself, you can have a control cost smaller than the active point cost you want to use.

Dude, unless 6e went off the fucking rails you are reading it wrong.

A from basically 1e up to reFred, a VPP has two parts. The points in the pool. and the control cost. When building a character nothing you do ever reduces the cost of the point in the pool. If you want a 50 point VPP, you pay 50 points -- PLUS the cost of the control cost. Now you can put a bunch of limitations on the control cost, and get that down to pretty cheap, but a 50 point VPP is never going to cost you less than 51 character points.


For an example (with FrED), let's say that Mike wants to play wealthy venture capitalist Antoine Sharpe who moonlights as the hero Chromium Man. Mike wants Chromium Man to have a modular suit of power armor. So Mike buys a 60 point VP -- this costs 60 points on Chromium Man's Character sheet. Mike then needs to spend 30 points on the "control cost" for a 60-active point VP, however all of Chromium Man's powers are through an OIF: Suit of Shiny Power Armor. So the control cost gets a -1/2 Limitation only costing Mike another 20 points. Thus it costs a total of 80 points on Chromium Man's character sheet. It probably actually costs a little more for a Reconfigure Power Armor skill -- but that's not strictly necessary.

However while no power in the pool can exceed 60 active points, and the sum total of the real costs of all powers in the pool at any given time cannot exceed 60, that means that the following list of powers is still a legal set:

• Gauntlet Blasters: 12d6 Energy blast (60 active), Activation 14- (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2) OIF: Shiny Power Armor (-1/2) (24 real points)
• Boot Jets: 21" flight, (42 active) Limited Power: Doesn't work at high altitudes due to icing (-1/4), OIF: Shiny Power Armor (-1/2) (24 real points)
• Armor +6 PD/+6 ED (18 active), OIF: Shiny Power Armor (12 real points)

This allocation of Chromium man's VPP has 3 powers all at or under 60 active points, and a sum total real cost of exactly 60 real points, so it's rules-legal. Note that it does contain a sum total of 120 active points of powers, even though the VPP only cost Mike 80 real points to buy at Chargen.

Note that if Mike wants to cheese it out a bit more, he could squeeze some more powers in at the same time by having the Boot Jets run off of continuing charges to shave the real cost of the flight a bit, and having the armor's defense be ineffective against melting attacks, and or the gauntlet blasters reduced by range and so on and so forth. Doing all that might shave enough real points that he could also have Clairsentience running at the same time to represent Chromimum Man's recon drones. Doing that sort of thing gives Mike even more total active points in the pool.


And this is where I go from discussing the rules as written to discussing the sorts of gentleman's agreement necessary to run Champs. Since the way to get even moar powers into a VPP at once is the load each individual power up with limitations, and since building a power with a large amount of limitations in Champs takes a notable amount of both player time and math -- it's a bad idea to allow that to eat into your time at the game table. I personally recommend running VPPs in Champs with the restriction that any power which requires advantage or limitation point calculation can only be added to your character sheet between sessions. Effectively they become Multipowers where new slots can be bought for zero XP.

[Foxwarrior]

I think you read what I said wrong/I said what I meant wrong, because that example works exactly how I thought it would.

Note that it does contain a sum total of 120 active points of powers, even though the VPP only cost Mike 80 real points to buy at Chargen.

And with only 24 points in the pool he could have just the 12d6 gauntlet blasters and nothing else, so he'd be spending 44 character points on a 60 active point ability (instead of 24 character points if he bought it the normal way). Not super efficient or anything, just saying that it's not that expensive to get a small pool that can still do useful things.

[Username17]

Foxwarrior, you have that totally wrong. The active poin limit is the base cost. Limitations only affect the control cost. Even with minus ten million inlimitations, a variable power pool capable of making a 12 die energy blast would cost 61 character points. Limitations on powers inside the pool don't increase the maximum active point limits, they just affect how many powers you can have at one time. A 50 point pool that had -3 in limitations could have four powers in it at once, but it would still cost 50 points before the control cost and none of the individual powers in it could be more than 10 dice.

Small power pools are incapable of making any power that is 'level appropriate' and no one fucking cares.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Foxwarrior, you have that totally wrong. The active poin limit is the base cost. Limitations only affect the control cost. Even with minus ten million inlimitations, a variable power pool capable of making a 12 die energy blast would cost 61 character points. Limitations on powers inside the pool don't increase the maximum active point limits, they just affect how many powers you can have at one time. A 50 point pool that had -3 in limitations could have four powers in it at once, but it would still cost 50 points before the control cost and none of the individual powers in it could be more than 10 dice.

Small power pools are incapable of making any power that is 'level appropriate' and no one fucking cares.

-Username17

You are, apparently, just wrong.

Because Variable Power Pools specifically say that your active points are spent for "Real" points of powers.

"A character with a Variable Power Pool can have any
combination of powers whose total Real Costs don’t exceed the
Pool of the VPP. No power in a VPP can have an Active Point
cost higher than the Control Cost."

So your 30 point active pool for your variable power pool ability "Spellcasting" can create a power with the limitations: Doesn't Work While Duplicates Exist, Incantations, Gestures, Slightly Limited Type (Magic) and you can spend your 30 Active points in that pool to buy a 30 point REAL point power with those limitations:

60 Active Blast of Magic Energy you have to cast as a spell with verbal and somatic components.

You can then spend a half phase action (or if you spend the additions on the control pool, a no phase action) to switch your 30 active points in the pool to pay for a different ability:

60 Active Points Teleport with Magic Spell that requires verbal and somatic components.

Then you can spec 30 points of active power into a different thing:

60 Active Points of casting the spell "Summon something" where the summon is whatever 60 points buys you.

Ect. Repeat forever. You can just have a Variable pool with 30 (or more likely 40) active points that always produces a 60 point spell effect of some kind that is literally anything you can ever imagine, therefore providing level appropriate offense and also instant solving of all non combat challenges forever at less than 60 total points (with limitations on the control pool).

[Fwib]

"A character with a Variable Power Pool can have any
combination of powers whose total Real Costs don’t exceed the
Pool of the VPP. No power in a VPP can have an Active Point
cost higher than the Control Cost."

So your 30 point active pool for your variable power pool ability "Spellcasting" can create a power with the limitations: Doesn't Work While Duplicates Exist, Incantations, Gestures, Slightly Limited Type (Magic) and you can spend your 30 Active points in that pool to buy a 30 point REAL point power with those limitations:

60 Active Blast of Magic Energy you have to cast as a spell with verbal and somatic components.

You can then spend a half phase action (or if you spend the additions on the control pool, a no phase action) to switch your 30 active points in the pool to pay for a different ability:

60 Active Points Teleport with Magic Spell that requires verbal and somatic components.

Then you can spec 30 points of active power into a different thing:

60 Active Points of casting the spell "Summon something" where the summon is whatever 60 points buys you.

I don't have any of my Hero books with me at the moment (lost in some GM friend's move, I think), but aren't the lower three bolded parts inconsistent with the first? Or am I misunderstanding Control Cost or something?
[edit]Capitalisation, missing ')'

[Josh_Kablack]

And with only 24 points in the pool he could have just the 12d6 gauntlet blasters and nothing else,..

Not quite.

Because the 12d6 EB Gauntlet blasters are 60 Active Points and with only 24 points in the pool that would limit each individual power in the pool to no more than 24 active points, which would mean only a 4d6 EB. (Or more likely a 3d6 EB with a +1/2 advantage to get to 22.5 active points)

Small power pools are incapable of making any power that is 'level appropriate' and no one fucking cares.

As HERO is not level based, it's probably a bit more precise to say that "small power pools have active point caps that make them unsuited to delivering meaningful primary attack modes". There are a lot of cheap movement, stealth, and utility powers in HERO -- as well as a couple secondary attack modes that can be relevant without being anywhere near the active point cost of a typical superheroes game.

"A character with a Variable Power Pool can have any
combination of powers whose total Real Costs don’t exceed the
Pool of the VPP. No power in a VPP can have an Active Point
cost higher than the Control Cost."

Edition and page number on this please?

It does not match the wording on page 209 of the copy of FrED sitting next to me? Did they change terms foe 6th Ed? Did they completely change the rules?

[Kaelik]

Edition and page number on this please?

It does not match the wording on page 209 of the copy of FrED sitting next to me? Did they change terms foe 6th Ed? Did they completely change the rules?

6e Complete page 123.

I don't have any of my Hero books with me at the moment (lost in some GM friend's move, I think), but aren't the lower three bolded parts inconsistent with the first? Or am I misunderstanding Control Cost or something?
[edit]Capitalisation, missing ')'

No, the "Control Pool" is a different thing that you also spend points on that both 1) benefits from limitations, and 2) already converts at 2:1.

So if you say, said "I apply all invokations and gestures to all my powers" and "All of my variable power point pool is 'limited' to the category of 'Magic' and has to be spells."

Then you would get 4 points of Control Cost per Character point. So you would spend 15 points on a Control Cost of 60, and then 30 points on a Pool of 30. Then you would be able to, using those limitations I listed above, turn 30 Pool points into a 60 active point power that you could flex into any active point power in the universe. So you could cast "any spell" that is appropriate.

And it would cost 45 Character Points total.

Variable Power Pools are pretty insane.

[Kaelik]

Also Josh, join our discord and play Champions with us.

[Username17]

To synthesize what Fwib and Josh are saying: firstly I have no idea what edition Kaelik dragged that quote out of, but that quote is the most nerftastic thing I've ever heard and if one were asked to play by those rules I wouldn't touch Variable Power Pools with a ten foot stick.

There are two distinct limits. The first is the total number of real points of all powers combined. The second limit is the number of active points of any power individually. In the writeups I am familiar with, the two limits are the same - the size of the power point pool.

But in the quote that Kaelik fished out of whatever version he happens to have, the first limit is the same as the version I'm familiar with and the second limit is half that. The Control Cost is half the Pool Cost. So a 60 point Variable Pool has a Control Cost of 30.

In Kaelik's quote, in order to fit a 12 die energy blast, you'd need a 60 point Control Cost - which means you'd need a pool of 120 points. So the base cost of that would be 180 points. And while you could use clever limitations and shit to bring the cost down, those limitations would still only affect the real points you spent for the 60 point Control Cost, the 120 point pool cost isn't affected by advantages or limitations and would just cost 120 points.

I can't imagine a Variable Power Point character that could be made functional at any point value in such a scenario.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

To synthesize what Fwib and Josh are saying: firstly I have no idea what edition Kaelik dragged that quote out of, but that quote is the most nerftastic thing I've ever heard and if one were asked to play by those rules I wouldn't touch Variable Power Pools with a ten foot stick.

There are two distinct limits. The first is the total number of real points of all powers combined. The second limit is the number of active points of any power individually. In the writeups I am familiar with, the two limits are the same - the size of the power point pool.

But in the quote that Kaelik fished out of whatever version he happens to have, the first limit is the same as the version I'm familiar with and the second limit is half that. The Control Cost is half the Pool Cost. So a 60 point Variable Pool has a Control Cost of 30.

In Kaelik's quote, in order to fit a 12 die energy blast, you'd need a 60 point Control Cost - which means you'd need a pool of 120 points. So the base cost of that would be 180 points. And while you could use clever limitations and shit to bring the cost down, those limitations would still only affect the real points you spent for the 60 point Control Cost, the 120 point pool cost isn't affected by advantages or limitations and would just cost 120 points.

I can't imagine a Variable Power Point character that could be made functional at any point value in such a scenario.

-Username17

I have no fucking earthly idea where you fished out this idea that the Control Cost is half the pool points, because that's no where in any set of rules and in my post I specifically explained that it's 2 points of Control Cost for one point of Character Points.

The Active Limitation of the pool is DIFFERENT than the number of points in the pool.

VARIABLE POWER POOLS

Cost: 1 CP per point in the Pool; 1 CP per 2 points in the
Control Cost

Establishes a pool of CP that the character can use to create
powers. The character distributes the points in the Pool among
whatever powers he wants to have at a given time. Typically,
these powers are linked by common Special Effects, such as
“gadgets,” “magic,” “fire/heat,” or “mentalism.”

A VPP consists of two parts: the Pool (the pool of CP the
character uses to buy powers) and the Control Cost (which
dictates how powerful those powers can be). Power Modifiers
apply only to the Control Cost. The Pool Cost always remains
unmodified.

A character with a Variable Power Pool can have any
combination of powers whose total Real Costs don’t exceed the
Pool of the VPP. No power in a VPP can have an Active Point
cost higher than the Control Cost.

Changing a power takes between 1 Turn and 1 Minute. The
character may (but is not obligated to) buy a Power Skill for
manipulating his VPP. A successful Power Skill Roll, at -1 per 10
Active Points in the power(s) being created, allows the character
to change powers as a Full Phase Action.

Whenever possible, a player should prepare in advance a
list of powers his character typically uses through his VPP. The
need to create powers and calculate VPP point allocations each
Phase can slow the game down drastically.

LIMITATIONS FOR VARIABLE POWER POOLS

There are three kinds of Limitations that characters apply to a
VPP’s Control Cost. The first is Limitations that affect when the
character can change powers. For example, maybe a character
can only change his powers between adventures, or after
consulting his grimoire. This type of Limitation applies only to
the Control Cost; the slots in the VPP don’t also take it.

The second is Limitations that affect the types of powers
a character can create with the Power Pool. Examples include
VPPs that may only be used for Fire powers, or to simulate
animal abilities. This type of Limitation also applies only to the
Control Cost; the slots don’t take it.

The third type affects the powers bought through the VPP.
This sort of Limitation is taken for both the Control Cost and
for any powers built with the Power Pool. For example, a VPP
where any power created through it Requires A Roll would take
that Limitation on the Control Cost, and every power built with
that VPP would take it as well.

So here we see that for 15 Character points you can buy a 60 point control cost limit, so long as "all your powers are magic" and "all your powers require two handed gestures" and "all your powers requires invocations."

Then, you Separately, pay points into the Pool, and the Pool could be 30, and you could then take that 30 point Pool and buy 30 points of "REAL" points worth of abilities, which is to say, one 60 Active Point power with -1 in total limitations. (Of which Gestures and Invocations is already -3/4).

[Username17]

OK, that's wacky as hell. It's basically identical to the old rules in that if you buy a "control" equal to size of variable pool you pay 1/2 as much for the control as you pay for the variable pool and then your limit on active points is equal to the pool size. Except that sixth edition lets you vary the control size separately from the pool size. That sounds like a prima facia terrible idea, I have no idea why they'd let you do that.

-Username17

[Fwib]

Well, that sounds potentially nice and exploitable and wizardy. And someone above says that fighter-types got nerfed? Where did we hear that before, I wonder?

[Dogbert]

OP seems to have a problem actually analyzing superheroes, starting with their own examples:

Hulk: Nearly indestructible, near-instant regeneration, psi-switcheroo defense against psychics (he has been known to alternate between Banner and Hulk to weather psionic attacks), literal Strength of Plot with all its related effects (like super leap), sonic clap (even when he himself lacks super sonic speed), doesn't need oxygen to live (can survive in the vacuum of space, and has done so several times), transformation that completely changes his appearance to the point of not needing a costume.

Spider-Man: Danger sense paired with limited omniscience (instant, supernatural awareness of his surroundings), superhuman strength, adhesion, Agility of Plot, master of his own kung fu style (the "way of the spider." In Marvel's power grid his fighting ability is rated at 7, the highest in the scale, which makes him virtually invincible in combat depending on writer), inhumanly flexible, genius-level intellect, low-tier metatechnology gadgets (which gives him a plethora of additional "powers," from radar to spider webs).

Now, let's try it with an X-Man (marvel's so-called, to-go "one trick ponies"):

Cyclops:
Optic blasts with strength of plot, world-class martial artist and tactician specialized in metahuman combat (because years in the Danger Room training with resources of alien tech unavailable anywhere in the world), decked in military-grade combat armor with long-range communications suit, the Blackbird.

...and you really, REALLY don't want me dissecting Batman.

Any superhero game worth its salt NEEDS what you call "wizards" because there is no such thing as actual "one trick ponies" that would-be players actually want to play. No one gives a shit about Dazzler or Pyro or Excrement-Eating Lad (even Toad has a minimum of three powers). People want to play the Hulk, they want to play Spider-Man or mr. Fantastic or Iron-Man... and ALL of them require "a grab bag of powers" and Kevin Siembieda be damned. Heroes Unlimited is a steaming pile of horse shit.

Superhero games need by definition be stupidly flexible. This makes them vulnerable to being exploited six ways into Sunday, yes, but if you're the type that needs "absolute control of everything" and fears "Captain Hobo" shit then chances are a genre that is by definition a power fantasy about people that do the impossible won't be your cup of tea in the first place.

Also yes, Steve Kenson has gone on record saying M&M takes all of its inspiration from Champions (with the differnce that M&M doesn't require a scientific calculator for chargen. Granted, it's broken in different ways, but at least it doesn't require a scientific calculator).