Orientalist Fantasy Settings

[OgreBattle]

I know some old old legends of Sir Kay as Cai say he could stay up for multiple days fighting, hold his breath, generate heat from his body so you could warm up next to him on a rainy day as he stays dry. Where does the hurling fireballs come from though? I googled for an hour and didn't find it.

Samurai, Ninja, Sorcerer seems like something that would be sorted out with class mechanics, power schedules and so on. Probably looking like Warblade, Assassin, Wizard or SwordSage

[maglag]

I know some old old legends of Sir Kay as Cai say he could stay up for multiple days fighting, hold his breath, generate heat from his body so you could warm up next to him on a rainy day as he stays dry. Where does the hurling fireballs come from though? I googled for an hour and didn't find it.

Wikipedia article says Sir Kay had "the ability to radiate supernatural heat from his hands", so from there to shooting fire from his hands doesn't seem like it needed much of a jump for later legends, and most modern media where he shows up have sir Kay throwing fireballs like nobody's business (I remember reading some old DC comic where Sir Kay had a ring that could cast fireball 1/day).

He could also grow as tall as the tallest tree.

[Usamimi]

So what do you guys want to play as and do in oriental adventures

https://youtu.be/XF-MDuXXiSI

[Usamimi]

Most RPGs treat combat as a central mechanic. Therefore, unless combat is less central, playability takes priority over accuracy to historical magic.

I presume this hypothetical RPG will take the latter route

On another note, most Western fantasy incorporates only the surface elements of the cultures it is based on, and uses a wide number of inspirations. An Eastern RPG need not focus on one culture, or include direct analogues to real world cultures at all.

[Username17]

There are basically two ways to divide up magic use. The first is within a paradigm and the second is between paradigms. Which is to say that you can either declare that you have N different elements and every spellcaster gets one of the elements, or you can have Elementalists and Shamans, and Illusionists and such.

The advantage of putting everything into the same magical paradigm is that it's very easy to explain why an effect is restricted to one flavor of magic and can't be used by another. A spell simply is defined as Wood Element or Metal Element or whatever, and then the fact that a Water Mage can't use it is self explanatory. The disadvantage I would say is that it's more difficult to make all the elements balanced thematically and game mechanically. Someone is always going to be Ma-Ti in this scenario.

A bit harder, but I would say more rewarding, is to have different kinds of magic that operate on different paradigms altogether. So your Elementalist can just be the "master of all the elements" that players are always going to want to be, because the other branches of magic are Shaman, Illusionist, Blood Speaker, and Alchemist and they don't use the elemental spells at all.

-Username17

[Whipstitch]

I feel like Sir Kay also had the power to write his own press releases.

[OgreBattle]

I feel like Sir Kay also had the power to write his own press releases.

One of the oldest sir Cai stories is King Arthur talking about how awesome his friend with warm hands who can grow huge and go for days without stopping is

[Username17]

One of the things that RPGs have struggled with most tremendously is the idea of scaling character concepts together. That is, any character concept can be made "more powerful" just by incrementing something it does. A speedster could go a little faster. and strong guy could be a little stronger, and so on and so on. But if you have an ensemble of protagonists and you want them to all advance meaningfully and stay roughly co-equal protagonists after doing so you've got to have those increments matter in a roughly co-equal fashion. And that is not and has not been easily done.

The big issue is "treadmill" advancement versus "lateral" advancement. If you "punch harder" but your enemies are "tougher" you don't accomplish any more in the story by punching things. Your punch may be objectively superior, but its narrative impact is the same. This is why Thieves and Fighters in D&D have historically gotten shafted, the additional "+1 to-hit" or "+1 to Hide in Shadows" is eaten by enemies having better Armor Classes and Spot Bonuses. Their "bonuses" just let them interact with the portion of the narrative that they were already part of in an effectively similar fashion - even as that portion becomes a smaller and smaller slice of the pie.

Treadmill advancement has to happen (at least as long as there are treadmill challenges) because otherwise abilities expire. In 3e D&D, low level characters have all kinds of infrequently used abilities like bullrushing and disarms that simply don't keep up later in the character's life cycle. Fighters don't literally lose the ability to push enemies in lieu of swinging a sword, but Bullrushing high level foes is less likely to work, and most high level foes would be only moderately inconvenienced by being pushed off a tower. The Rogue doesn't just lose relevance by having their Hide become no better at foiling level appropriate foes while that task becomes a smaller slice of the pie, they actually also effectively lose access to meaningful benefits from things on their character sheet like "untrained jump" and shit that cease having relevance on high level battlefields.

What this means of course is that a role playing game that has character progression needs to codify what the challenges are supposed to look like with each level of progression. And that the character progressions need to be defined according to those challenges, not merely giving some bonuses to whatever the character started out at. That is, there are an infinite number of ways and degrees you could imagine an increase in power for a swordsman or a sorcerer, but the ones that are "balanced" are the ones that are appropriate for the expected challenges of the next adventure.

And that is something that I think the Orientalist Fantasy backdrop is much better at delivering than the typical Tolkien/Gygaxian fantasy hodgepodge. It isn't just that it is perhaps easier to imagine a "Samurai" or a "Ninja" getting the powers needed to meaningfully contribute when the challenge of the day is "Fucking Godzilla" than it is to imagine a "Thief" or "Fighting Man" doing the same; it's that being specifically a "Wasp Clan Samurai" implies a connectedness to a society and a source of ancestral magic. The Wasp Clan Samurai can spontaneously generate a Heroes of Might and Magic style army complete with bug riders and magic creatures should that be a necessary to contribute against a new challenge set. That wouldn't be weird, in the way that would seem out of place in a typical D&D class progression (other than those hiding in the spell lists - or "secret class progressions" of Sorcerers).

-Username17

[maglag]

And that is something that I think the Orientalist Fantasy backdrop is much better at delivering than the typical Tolkien/Gygaxian fantasy hodgepodge. It isn't just that it is perhaps easier to imagine a "Samurai" or a "Ninja" getting the powers needed to meaningfully contribute when the challenge of the day is "Fucking Godzilla" than it is to imagine a "Thief" or "Fighting Man" doing the same; it's that being specifically a "Wasp Clan Samurai" implies a connectedness to a society and a source of ancestral magic. The Wasp Clan Samurai can spontaneously generate a Heroes of Might and Magic style army complete with bug riders and magic creatures should that be a necessary to contribute against a new challenge set. That wouldn't be weird, in the way that would seem out of place in a typical D&D class progression (other than those hiding in the spell lists - or "secret class progressions" of Sorcerers).

-Username17

Why not?

We were just discussing how knights at King Arthur's table have innate fire magic and size changing abilities.

Tolkien's warriors can rally ghost armies and eagle air forces when the going gets tough.

Nobody would bat an eye if north Europe warriors can call valkyries to their aid.

Pegasus/dragon/gryphon mounts with maybe magic powers are a western classic too.

Lots of western warriors negotiating with the fey for favors too.

It's just that D&D in specific decided to shit on those options unless you're a spellcaster, but as you point out Heroes Of Might and Magic is a western based RPG where a warrior can gather up a fantastic army with special abilities.

[OgreBattle]

So what are the challenge prompts, is it mostly humans fighting humans or are there some invading subhuman orcs or mountains full of goblins to clear

[Whipstitch]

Why not?

Because unfortunately the hodgepodges already exist and often have weaksauce fighters. D&D casts a long enough shadow that sharing an aesthetic with it at all often gets people to bring an unfortunate number of prior assumptions to the table. It didn't necessarily have to be so, but it's definitely the timeline we're living in.

[Username17]

Tolkien's warriors can rally ghost armies and eagle air forces when the going gets tough.

Most of them can't. Aragorn can't summon an army of ghost warriors because he's a warrior, he can summon an army of ghost warriors because he's the last King of Gondor. Legolas and Gimli can't summon an army of ghost warriors, and this in turn means that their heroics are limited to killing a statistically insignificant but personally impressive number of Orcs.

Which of course is exactly the point. In a typical role playing game, none of the ensemble protagonists get to be "The Chosen One" because they are co-equal protagonists in an ensemble. Which means that none of the characters get to have character concepts that give them access to late game upgrades in a Tolkienian world. But being a "Samurai of the Turtle Clan" or whatever does come with that kind of potential narrative upgrade. The Orientalist Fantasy clan system inherently gives every character access to the "chosen one" narrative needed for late game fantasy hijinks that Gygaxian fantasy allows for none of the player characters.

-Username17

[maglag]

Tolkien's warriors can rally ghost armies and eagle air forces when the going gets tough.

Most of them can't. Aragorn can't summon an army of ghost warriors because he's a warrior, he can summon an army of ghost warriors because he's the last King of Gondor. Legolas and Gimli can't summon an army of ghost warriors, and this in turn means that their heroics are limited to killing a statistically insignificant but personally impressive number of Orcs.

Which of course is exactly the point. In a typical role playing game, none of the ensemble protagonists get to be "The Chosen One" because they are co-equal protagonists in an ensemble. Which means that none of the characters get to have character concepts that give them access to late game upgrades in a Tolkienian world. But being a "Samurai of the Turtle Clan" or whatever does come with that kind of potential narrative upgrade. The Orientalist Fantasy clan system inherently gives every character access to the "chosen one" narrative needed for late game fantasy hijinks that Gygaxian fantasy allows for none of the player characters.

-Username17

Legolas is a forest elf ranger so he has mad tracking skillz

And both him and Gimli are important lords of their people. Aragorn may secretly be the king of men, but he still has no authority over dwarves nor elves. So Gimli technically had the potential of summoning an army of super artisans that can make impossible arquitecture and Legolas had the potential of summoning an army of forest elves super trackers.

Then the actual chosen one is some halfling hillbilly just because the artifact of ultimate power fell into his lap. Secretly king Aragorn is the one bending the knee to him.

And even the non-chosen-one hobbits get to prc to tree-friends where they show up with armies of Ents to save the day!

So Tolkien offers plenty of options parallel to "turtle clan samurai":
-"I'm a lord of the Elven clan so I can summon stealthy elven armies who are super trackers, all the lembas bread you can eat, stars inside bottles, holy animated ropes, unsinkable boats, you name it."
-"I'm a lord of the Dwarf clan so I can get dire boar mounts and summon armies of dwarves who can build super arquitecture and a dozen of us could fortify a chokepoint well enough to hold thousands of elves at bay."
-"I'm a lord of the hobbit clan so I can get armies of trees to move out on my command and also serve as mounts. That or I just tripped into some artifact of super power, there's dozens of those out there, enough for a whole party if you feel like it."
-"I'm a lord of the mountain orc clan so I get giant borrowing worms that can tunnel through solid rock besides dire wolf mounts."
-"I'm a lord of the huruk-hai clan so I get gunpowder and crossbows and ballistas that nobody else has and warg mounts."
-"I'm a lord of the distant clans so I get dire mammoth mounts and a corsair fleet for sea adventuring".

And of course you don't need to stick to the original material at 100% so you can just do:
-"I'm a lord of the Gondor clan so I can summon the cursed ghosts of past deserters to redeem themselves by fighting for me."

[Longes]

And if we get down to it, both Legolas and Aragorn have the power of ancient oaths and diplomacy skills. When used by Legolas it gets the Fellowship an entry to Lothlorien and major artefact upgrades. When used by Aragorn it gets the forces of Gondor a backing of a ghost army.

[OgreBattle]

A war buddy of my grandfather supposedly summoned a ghost army in the jungles of Southeast Asia. Seems to be ancestor spirits related

[Thaluikhain]

Looks like you're swapping "if someone can be a wizard, everyone has to be" for "if someone can be a wizard, everyone has to be a wizard or second in line to the throne" there.

Aren't you still excluding a lot of kinds of characters? Though, don't see how you'd avoid that.

[Lokey]

Maybe it'll be clearer with some rephrasing.

It's Aragorn's backstory that gets him a ghost army, not any part of his character mechanics. He could be a merchant or artisan or courtier and be able to do that...or of course one of the DnD tier 1 classes.

Eagles just get writers out of corners they painted themselves into...not sure if anyone besides the mages can deal with them.

Now most games probably don't degenerate into summon things to solve all of your problems especially in combat, it's just a powerful option in most DnD versions. I'm not sure how applicable it is to L5R and similar, it's been a while, but summoning Oni was more like calling Godzilla iirc.
_____

We all play plenty of games where the character classes aren't anywhere close to equal by the rules. How different tables deal with the imbalance doesn't matter just means your wizard allowable tricks may be different from mine or there's some kind of MAD balance between the two sides of the table which will again differ game to game and group to group. That's fine, but it'd be better to just need less of that so you can go into games without having to review the banlist or be able to talk about what your group does without tons of preamble (why's that hard, just send in your Simulacrums).

[Username17]

Counterargument: Birthright.

It's possible to set up a Gygaxian Western European Fantasy campaign where all the player characters are princes. But that's also incompatible with the "zero to hero" narrative those campaigns are supposed to tell. The Western Fantasy concept of the princeling is someone who is due men-at-arms as a child, so there's never really an opportunity to play such a character at "first level" or whatever its equivalent is.

By contrast, in the Orientalist Fantasy, our hypothetical animal clans exist as a clear means for a character to be promoted into the status of prince simply by virtue of being a badass and completing generic quests. The Carp Clan Samurai can be afforded some Carp Clan retainers when that's appropriate, and further along they can pick up a frickin Gyrados when that is appropriate.

K and I did an extensive deconstruction of the D&D Warrior narrative in the Elothar Warrior of Bladereach. The character needs to gain allies and artifacts along the way to be able to meaningfully contribute in adventures with high level challenges. And one of our points with that particular rant was to underline how unlikely it was for a character's random adventures to acrue them the kind of backstory necessary to "get there" as a high level Warrior in D&D adventures. But the Clan structure of Orientalist Fantasy really can sidestep all of that. It's no longer bizarre that achieving a certain level implies that you get an artifact sword - that can simply be exactly how it works. When you are personally powerful enough as a Boar Clan Senshi, someone literally opens a vault and fucking hands you the Ancient Spear of the Boars. It's not humorous commentary about what would need to happen, that's actually how it works!

-Username17

[Usamimi]

Suggestion: Inspired by Birthright regency, once a fighter becomes lord of a land, they gain a mystical connection to it that enables them to summon level appropriate armies of "tiny mans". A fighter who reaches a certain level is promoted to lord. Example:

Asskicking Equals Authority (Su)
A fighter of x level is recognised as powerful by the ruler of the realm, and granted a small domain. Through the power of their connection to the land, they can summon an army of size fnord made up of various appropriate monsters.

Alternatively, this army can be composed of traditional soldiers. I prefer my idea.

[maglag]

When you are personally powerful enough as a Boar Clan Senshi, someone literally opens a vault and fucking hands you the Ancient Spear of the Boars. It's not humorous commentary about what would need to happen, that's actually how it works!

And when Artur proved himself worthy enough, he was able to pull the artifact sword from the stone and become king (or the lady of the lake gifted him Excalibur when he was high level enough).

Depending on the version of the legend you go for Artur may've just been a badass enough normal soldier to claim a fancy sword as a tournament prize and from there become a ruler.

So men at arms upgrading into royalty is part of western culture too. Heck, it's how most nobility started, prove yourself strong/capable enough and you would get land and titles and fancy armor and weaponry to boot.

And sure in some western settings you need to be born nobility right away, but then certain oriental settings have samurais with artifact swords being an exclusive club too with a "no ashiguru allowed" sign hanging at the door.

Even in Tolkien you have both birtright Aragorn then Merry and Pippin start as country bumpkins and end as respected warriors and tree-friends that lead legions of ents.

[Usamimi]

I vote in favour of designing an RPG.

We already have a preliminary class list, and a basic setting.

[maglag]

We have?

The closest thing to a class list was samurai senshi, monk, sorceror, ninja, which sounds a bit short.

But then there was the suggestion of soft classes where everything is skill based.

The setting itsef is generic empire kinda divided in an undefined number of nations (supposedly expies of Asian nations?) and dozens of animal-based clans that are rivals but also get along well enough that any combination may be possible with zero racism and there's religion but not using any actual real world religion so the religion(s) need to be designed from scratch still and it's not clear if it will be a quartiary track besides race/class/clan.

Then as somebody said, a hero is defined by the challenges they overcome so one needs to define the opposition, with suggestion of just picking the coolest monsters from every asian culture.

So what goes? Are dragons more dangerous than dai onis? Different tiers of dragons and oni? Spanning which levels? Do oni have their own civilization outside the empire's borders? Can characters ride the dragons? Can you go and stab the gods? Are there lesser gods to stab early on?

Also if it's an empire, can you eventually just go stab the emperor? Then who becomes the new emperor in the party?

Or on a lower level, do you ever get to be head of your clan? Does the previous guy just resignate when you reach level X or you need to stab them? What if there's more than one player of the same clan?

[OgreBattle]

I think of this as more a big reference inspiration list document for finding good ideas to build one’s setting, to give feedback to folks who do start building a 心 breaker

And to see how different everyone’s ideas can be

—-

I feel a proper dragon should be a unique character friend or foe with a name and not be generic monsters you randomly encounter.

You can then have more animalistic chimeric monsters, wyverns and other names for the generic stuff that you get as a mount

Oni can be generic wilderness barbarians or civilized tyrants or space invaders.
They may be yaksa raksasha inspired so you could use Hindu cosmology to order them so a Thai Yak and Oni are the same species in different places

[deaddmwalking]

One concern I have about clans. It seems inevitable to me that one clan would have designs against another - possibly to claim territory or whatever. If clan warfare happens ever there is a small possibility that one clan is eliminated more or less completely. Being the 'last of your clan' is a character hook that some people might choose if they could, so considering what that means in the grand scheme of things is important.

[Username17]

One concern I have about clans. It seems inevitable to me that one clan would have designs against another - possibly to claim territory or whatever. If clan warfare happens ever there is a small possibility that one clan is eliminated more or less completely. Being the 'last of your clan' is a character hook that some people might choose if they could, so considering what that means in the grand scheme of things is important.

Clans can't have designs on each other because Clans don't have leaders and don't want things.

The Duke of Chu is Wolf Clan, and he may come into conflict with the Duke of Zho who is Wasp Clan. And while the Duke of Chu will be able to motivate a non-zero number of Wolf Clan Senshi to fight on his behalf on the basis of family contacts and the Duke of Zho will likewise mobilize a non-zero number of Wasp Clan Senshi on similarly nepotistic grounds - this is not a conflict between "The Wolf" and "The Wasp." It's still a conflict between Chu and Zho. There are also non-Wolf and non-Wasp soldiers on both sides, because neither the governments nor the provinces of Chu or Zho have people of only one Clan in them.

Now a more important question is how "hands off" the Emperor is. Obviously you want Dukes to lead military campaigns against each other, which implies the Emperor is dead or missing or just too feeble to stop that from happening.

-Username17