*D&D 4ed*

[K]

The penalties associated with armor are actually quite mild, and the martial characters start with most (but not all) the feats. Heavy armor gives a -5 foot penalty to speed, and plate mail gives a -2 penalty to physical skill checks. Whatever.

If you wear armor you are not proficient in, you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and reflex saves.

Excellent. The Wizards puts on Full Plate immediately and never invests any feats.

Can you still use animate dead for flying Zombie Chimera goodness?

[JonSetanta]

[TGFBS]
Link deleted.
[/TGFBS]

Ohoho! Praise +∞.

But just a warning; FBMF doesn't take too kindly to potentially site-endangering links posted publicly. And for good reason, in instances like this.
However, now that it's distributed...

[DragonChild]

Excellent. The Wizards puts on Full Plate immediately and never invests any feats.

Pretty much EVERYTHING the wizard does is going to require an attack roll, still. And you get int modifier to AC at low levels. So you're "only" getting +5 AC, for -2 to attacks, reflex, and movement based skills, as well as a penalty to moving. Yeah, it's still probablly a benefit, but not a must-have if you can mostly avoid being hit.

And I didn't see any form of monster reanimation at all.

My "lesigh" was more over the fact that they nerfed wizard flying into non-existance, yet kept easy to get mounts. Yeah, I think mounted fighters are cool, but they aren't the only guys who fly around, you know?

[angelfromanotherpin]

I'm still looking over it, but my first criticism is that the distinction between 'leather' armor and 'hide' armor is at least two different flavors of bullshit.

[Voss]

The wizard can buy a mount just as easily as a fighter, or anything else. All it really means is that the wizard (and others with UMD) isn't the only one who is immune to melee-only creatures and ground-based hazards, all the time.

I'll agree but go a bit farther on the full plate, though. Its a bad idea for the wizard. He can get robes (or whatever) with armor enchantment bonuses, and his int will go up as he levels, and since it directly affects his AC, the gap between his AC and the AC of the guy in plate will actually go down as he goes up in levels. The armor check penalty and penalty to attack rolls is by far a greater penalty than the benefit he gets.

Now if you want to do some arcane magic on the side, you can be a full plate guy, pick up some spells and cast without penalty, but trying to do it the other way around is a bad idea.

[K]

I'll agree but go a bit farther on the full plate, though. Its a bad idea for the wizard. He can get robes (or whatever) with armor enchantment bonuses, and his int will go up as he levels, and since it directly affects his AC, the gap between his AC and the AC of the guy in plate will actually go down as he goes up in levels. The armor check penalty and penalty to attack rolls is by far a greater penalty than the benefit he gets.

Why can't the Wizard just take his Int bonus to AC and wear his full plate? Then he can have a better AC than the Fighter.

Even if he doesn't get it, trading a penalty for a bigger bonus to AC is a win. As you go off the range, you easily might be trading a 50% reduction in damage for something like 20% fewer hits (we call that blink in 3e).

Lots of power have effects even when you miss. It's not even a deal (unless I'm missing something).

Also, even

[DragonChild]

Why can't the Wizard just take his Int bonus to AC and wear his full plate? Then he can have a better AC than the Fighter.

You choose between Int or Dex to AC when wearing light armor. No such bonus in heavy armor.

You're right, however, that going around in fullplate is something that's actually encouraged for wizards to do at first level. That's kinda dumb. I still see it likely that high level wizards will wear robes due to huge int bonuses, but at first level, yeah, go for the tin can caster.

[JonSetanta]

Well so far I've skimmed it but plan on savoring this chapter by chapter, rather than devour like some shitty late-3.5 splat.

One thing has been bugging me about the "everyone makes attack rolls" for a while, since Frank brought up the point in some thread about 4e at least 2 months ago.
How does a Wizard maked AOE attacks?
1 Wizard vs. 50 Goblins = 50 attacks?
Can they Take 10 on it, or similar?

[the_taken]

Monsters go up to level 40, but PCs end at level 30? What is this. Apparently, a monster of the party's level +7 is really hard, and a party is supposed to have 5 guys. So a standard group of 5 PCs level 30 can take on a Lvl37 encounter and possibly win... Why is there level 40 monsters?

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At least there is a clear definition as to what level apropriate damage is...

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Son of a bitch. Making a normal monster into a solo monster multiplies it's HP by about 24? That can't be right.
+5 to saving throws? What the hell?

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OK. A random dungeon generator system. This reminds me of- Oooooooh!

HOT TIP: Take a bunch of the monster cards you got from buying official D&D miniatures and put them in decks according to level and theme. When a random encounter shows up, draw five cards. Voila! Instant encounter.

I have to admit, I kinda like this idea. Combine the random dungeon generator with the decks of monsters: No plot. No dungeon master. Violence only. Final Destination.


Which happens to be an optional rule...

[JonSetanta]

Someone on /tg/ recently wrote:

Anonymous 05/28/08(Wed)16:21 No.1841823

ranger/wizard= ninja

fuck yes

Which got me thinking, there are some delicious archetypes to be exploited using the 4e 'multiclassing' options.

Can a Monk-like fist-fighting warrior be made using 4e rules?
Is a DBZ "Z-Warrior" possible?
Is Gish even valid now?

[SphereOfFeetMan]

the taken,

I also made a connection between 4e and Monsters' Den: The Book of Dread. Both utilize small differences in numbers as the bulk of their game play, with relatively few abilities in their game design.

The difference is I judged and enjoyed Monsters' Den as a simple, and passing, game experience.

[the_unthinkable]

Looks like some sweet stuff!

[the_taken]

The monster manual is full of stuff that is good for what it's for: supplying monsters to DMs.

Guess what the "bat" entry in the Monster Compendium made me think of?

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Driders are back on Lolth's team...

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Dryads are the treant's succubi, only nicer... sorta.

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Tasty bits: 4eMM has rules for being a minotaur from level 1. Actually, there's a bunch of stuff about playing some non 4ePHB races right before the glossary. Why it's there and not with every single monster is an enigma, considering that you just need to add non-combat skills to play them. As usual, it's recommended that you don't without special permission.

I was hoping for some monster cards to cut out at the end of the book. Ditto.

-------

Frank, one of your fears has come true. There is a pitiful amount of information about the personalities of the sapient creatures. Really, there's just vague things about kingdoms and shit.

[RandomCasualty2]

Out of combat stuff got tottally nerfed and rituals pretty much suck.

Basic illusions are now a 10 minute ritual to create an image o fsomething that can't go more than 20 squares from the origin point and cost you 500 gp to cast. And you don't even have great control over the illusion. It can't have conversations with people or anything. And that appears to be the only way to create a figment in the entire game. Sad.

You also seem to get a town portal ability at level 8, that lets you go to basically any permanent teleportation circle that you know about. Hello, Diablo 2.

Knock now takes 10 minutes to cast, costs 35 gp and a healing surge... and just gives you the ability to make an arcana +5 check instead of a thievery check to open a lock... wtf?

And as far as the monster manual... there are way too many elites and not enough standard monsters.

As for evasion versus great fortitude, I honestly don't think evasion is nearly as good anymore, because there aren't many monster abilities that deal half damage on a miss anymore.

[K]

Out of combat stuff got tottally nerfed and rituals pretty much suck.

Basic illusions are now a 10 minute ritual to create an image o fsomething that can't go more than 20 squares from the origin point and cost you 500 gp to cast. And you don't even have great control over the illusion. It can't have conversations with people or anything. And that appears to be the only way to create a figment in the entire game. Sad.

You also seem to get a town portal ability at level 8, that lets you go to basically any permanent teleportation circle that you know about. Hello, Diablo 2.

Knock now takes 10 minutes to cast, costs 35 gp and a healing surge... and just gives you the ability to make an arcana +5 check instead of a thievery check to open a lock... wtf?

Yeh, rituals are now "those things you forget to write on your character sheet because if you spend gold on them you won't have gold for equipment."

I seriously don't think there was any playtesting aside from a few minis combats in the office.

[virgil]

Well, after much searching, I can now say with confidence that they did nothing to handle social skills.

Make a Diplomacy check to change opinions, to inspire good will, to haggle with a patron, to demonstrate proper etiquette and decorum, or negotiate a deal in good faith.

The DC for whatever Diplomacy check you make has NO guidelines other than DM fiat, even in the DMG. There isn't even an example DC in any form. It's pretty much going to go how the DM feels like when it comes to social interactions.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Yeh, rituals are now "those things you forget to write on your character sheet because if you spend gold on them you won't have gold for equipment."

That's depressing. From what I have seen so far, rituals seem like the most interesting abilities in the game. Many powers and feats are just number juggling abilities. It seems as though they took the most fun parts of 3e and slapped a price tag on them, so that they won't be used.

...

[virgil]

Oh, and they do have a solution to the Barbie Princess Syndrome that was theorized with various daily use magic items. You are only allowed to use one magic item daily power per day (2/day for level 11-20, 3/day for 21-30).

Wait, my bad. Every two encounters you run through without taking a 6-hour nap gives you an additional action point & an additional magic item daily power for the day (not that it resets the magic item, but it expands your limit).

[virgil]

Damn, it's even more non-Euclidean than I thought. Except for moving around corners of walls and the like, diagonal movement into adjacent squares is simple. This means an orthogonal line of enemies is functionally impassable, while a diagonal line is quite passable unless it's two-deep.

[RandomCasualty2]

That's depressing. From what I have seen so far, rituals seem like the most interesting abilities in the game. Many powers and feats are just number juggling abilities. It seems as though they took the most fun parts of 3e and slapped a price tag on them, so that they won't be used.

...

Yeah, I really can't see why they had to apply a cost to every ritual. Like detect secret door or knock. Seriously if you're going to take 10 minutes to look for secret doors or unlock a single door, it can just work for no cost.

Besides, it seems that in 4E objects have no hardness or DR, so you can just whack at a door till it breaks, even an adamantine one. Dungeon tunneling was bad in 3E, but it seems to be even worse in 4E, as you can chop through most doors absurdly fast, because there's no hardness at all.

On a side note, the new speak with dead ritual seems like a total plot breaker for a mystery plot. Unlike the 3.5 version, you can't just cut out the tongue of the corpse to prevent it from speaking. You can even use it as a means of interrogation, killing someone and then asking them for whatever information you wanted. It's 140 gp a pop but for high level or epic characters, that's nothing.

The new scrying, Observe Creature, is more abuseable than scrying was. You no longer require any objects or likeness of the creature, you just require some unambiguous description, which may well be "The man who killed the king." Of course, it only lasts for a few rounds, so it's really not good for much else besides revealing the identity of someone who fits a description. You can no longer use it to spy on your enemies, even at archmage level... Seriously, what the hell? Observe creature my ass... it's more like "catch brief glimpse of creature."

The magic circle ritual also seems to be something that smart players will be able to abuse. At the very least, it's the new rope trick.

[Nihlin]

Intimidate looks to be the new Diplomacy. It's a skill that targets Will rather than being opposed by a skill, and one of the example uses is to make a bloodied target surrender. You take a -10 to use it in combat, and another -5 if you don't share a language, for a likely net -15. A 2nd-level Warlock can get a +13 from training, Skill Focus, and an Encounter power. You can jack it up from there if you bother to try.

[Nihlin]

The whole game's 1-30 power curve seems to be a remapping of the 1-10 level range of 3.5. Nobody ever gets to animate the dead, teleport around the world like it's no big deal, make permanent walls of iron, walk on clouds, triangle jump between two walls, etc...

The first Dominate effect I've found is 27th level. There's no Charm at all, as far as I've found.

[JonSetanta]

In any event, you can get this by googling for torrents without spending more then a couple minutes looking, so the proverbial cat is already out of the bag.

That is true. Given time one can find anything on the internets.

Oh, and they do have a solution to the Barbie Princess Syndrome that was theorized with various daily use magic items. You are only allowed to use one magic item daily power per day (2/day for level 11-20, 3/day for 21-30).

Wait, my bad. Every two encounters you run through without taking a 6-hour nap gives you an additional action point & an additional magic item daily power for the day (not that it resets the magic item, but it expands your limit).

That's great! Power is focused in the users of the party and not the items they share, making a single healing or restorative item easily passed around.

The first Dominate effect I've found is 27th level. There's no Charm at all, as far as I've found.

Look at powers for the Warlock, Fey type.
Might be some for Wizard too but they seem to have devolved into blaster-only, although the at-will Presdigitation (boosted nicely, too) as well as variety of free cantrips look very fun.
So far, I'd probably do Wizard with some Warlock smattered in.

[Username17]

Oh, and they do have a solution to the Barbie Princess Syndrome that was theorized with various daily use magic items. You are only allowed to use one magic item daily power per day (2/day for level 11-20, 3/day for 21-30).

Wait, my bad. Every two encounters you run through without taking a 6-hour nap gives you an additional action point & an additional magic item daily power for the day (not that it resets the magic item, but it expands your limit).

So the Barbie Princess Syndrome is that you can use a daily power per milestone?

So if I have 3 encounters, I can use two items. If I have 5 encounters, I can use 3. If the power discrepancy between a Daily power and an encounter power on a magic item is large, then we are back to playing Pretty Princess Dressup.

...And we're in Pretty Princess Dressup land. The Arm Slot Items only have Daily or Continuous powers. The Daily Powers are big (negate 10 damage), the continuous powers are small (inflict 2 damage). Carrying around piles of low level Daily-use equipment for your weird slots is practically free, so everyone is going to do it. Then, since they can't use it any more in the next encounter, they are going to swap it out for something that provides any benefit at all in the upcoming battle.

Expect pretty much everyone to carry around at least 3 items with Daily powers on them and some substitution items to throw in during the next short rest when their powers are expended. No reason to not have Bracers of Mighty Striking on once your Guardian Shield is used for the day - it's only 520 gold.

For that matter, the difference between a Paragon and an Epic tier Guardian Shield is basically nothing as far as effects go: all you get is a frankly bullshit increase in range. But the difference in "cost" is tremendous. It's seriously 3 million gp, enough to purchase another Epic tier magic item to swap out with when your Guardian Shield is used up for the day.

Argh. This system makes me angry. So angry.

-Username17

[K]

The whole game's 1-30 power curve seems to be a remapping of the 1-10 level range of 3.5. Nobody ever gets to animate the dead, teleport around the world like it's no big deal, make permanent
walls of iron, walk on clouds, triangle jump between two walls, etc...

Agreed. They've solved the high-level problem by removing it entirely.

Look at the Demi-god path. At 30th level you get........wait for it......infinite uses of the last encounter power you used after you've expended all of your encounter powers. That's so.....unimpressive.

Heck, even the portable holes are smaller.

I understand why: it is so much easier to write adventures when the PCs have no power and can't do anything interesting. In fact, you really can do what an earlier poster suggested: pull five monsters out of a deck and play! It doesn't matter if you use monsters that work against the player's strengths, because they don't have any!

The problem is that there are enough cracks in the system that it doesn't even matter anymore. For example, a 29th level character can't fight for more than seven rounds straight before he has to dip into his daily powers. After seven more rounds, he's stuck with his 1st level at will powers. (This is all assuming you aren't turning actions into more minor actions to activate Minor action powers, which means it could be over much quicker.) It's a good thing that players can run away and "refresh" the encounter powers, eh?