Emberwind and Spirit Island

[Avoraciopoctules]

https://www.emberwindgame.com/

I heard this system mentioned in passing a month or two ago, and it looks like it has the potential to be something worth checking out. A fantasy heartbreaker with deep tactical combat, designed to be more viable to run without a DM.

That means enemies have combat scripts they run off of, based on the proximity of PCs on the battle map and possibly random rolls. The PCs allegedly have some abilities that encourage teamwork and careful positioning, like a mage who can use the lingering magic from other people's spells to set up MAGIC COMBOS.

On the other hand, in a worst case scenario I'm paying 50 bucks for a choose your own adventure novel that makes every action scene drag out for hours instead of minutes. If the system doesn't have the flexibility to handle some out-of-the-box thinking, I might as well go back to playing Fire Emblem Three Houses for my tactical RPG fix.

Still, this has apparently gotten some positive press at cons as a D&D competitor. I'm at least a little curious. Does anyone else have impressions they'd like to share?

[Lago PARANOIA]

designed to be more viable to run without a DM.

That means enemies have combat scripts they run off of, based on the proximity of PCs on the battle map and possibly random rolls.

Still, this has apparently gotten some positive press at cons as a D&D competitor.

lol. I mean, I'm not saying that Emberwind is bad or anything, but seriously, lol. What an asinine thing to say if your description is accurate. Dipshits.

[Avoraciopoctules]

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/17/17921.phtml

This review gave it 5 stars, but I see a few red flags such as the insistence that broken rules are fine because the customer can fix them.

Still, looking at the substance of the review, a picture of how things are supposed to go in play becomes clearer.

Like a Fighting Fantasy book, one reads the scene setting text, players make a decision from the options (or win a combat) and going to the appropriate page for the conclusion. Nevertheless, this is not done by describing each phase, in its place whole scenes are explained, by proposing some possibilities. For example, if you are playing as a group, you might have to vote for the course the party takes which just needs a majority. The additional amusing twist is the campaign clock. There are a number of scenes or activities where the players can choose to explore that add time to the adventure. These actions add a point to the running total of 'campaign clock.' At certain points in the adventure, you may be asked what the point total of the campaign clock is to know if you are too late for something. As you don't know what number, you are aiming for and when it will be a factor you need to be careful how often you decide to stick around any particular place. But it does allow you to explore the world without losing track of the main plot.

It seems that the game definitely takes a leaf out of the CYOA format, but there’s supposed to be some mechanics for time pressure. You are supposed to have some freedom, but the game might not react well to jumping the rails.

It definitely looks like they are in a precarious spot. Lancer is coming out soon, and that seemed to have fairly solid combat without clunky paper-and-dice AI for mobs.

[MGuy]

I mentioned Emberwind. And I talked to the guy who made it in person at a convention. I only mentioned it here, not as a serious take on RPGs but for someone who was explicitly looking for something like a boardgame that is barely an rpg.

Talking to the guy and looking at what he did with the system, it is not build with approaching encounters flexibly in mind and everything that's not combat is pretty much vaporware from what I saw. You'd be paying 50 dollars for an interesting idea to have dice rolls decide what the enemies do and pretty art as far as I can tell.

Then again I didn't buy it. Just talked to the designer.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Oh, you might actually be where I first heard about it! Sorry, I usually just skim the Den when I’m on break.

It sounds like I should probably wait until they have a real example of play before I shell out for any fancy hardcovers. I’ll keep an eye out for any podcasts or YouTube features, then.

[Omegonthesane]

I have... negative feelings towards the Rune oneshot that took place on these boards, but it already provides an example of AI-driven tabletop enemies. The way I remember it either the third or the second encounter had enemies who either were "fully free willed" and thus served DM whim altogether, or who had tags that let them ignore specific parts of the AI flowchart like "being able to not move directly towards your target".

And that was super railroady like whoa, bcos the premise was that you were also a bunch of glory hounds so there was point scoring and shit.

[Dogbert]

"Endorsed by RPGnet" means fuck-all, let's start there. All it means is that the Onyx Path mafia is cool with you and thus will ban anyone who badmouths your good name.

I see a few red flags such as the insistence that broken rules are fine because the customer can fix them.

Now THIS... this isn't a "red flag," it's a billboard on a gargantuan, neon-covered zepellin that says DETOUR: ANY OTHER GAME IN EXISTENCE.

If anything, I guess you could thank whoever wrote that review for being that transparent. Now you know to steer clear off that piece of Vogon poetry.[/b]

[Username17]

https://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/17/17921.phtml

This review gave it 5 stars, but I see a few red flags such as the insistence that broken rules are fine because the customer can fix them.

That review is fucking hilarious.

Combat could be a tad simpler but that is because I am used to OSR games like 1e and Runequest in which it is more of a slugfest and fancy moves are within the realm of description. So the fact that someone builds rules on top of that seems to me a bit odd just as much 3.x forward and Pathfinder seem to me.

Anyway, it gave me an audible chuckle, because someone admitting that everything from the last twenty fucking years seems "odd" and newfangled is just too fucking much from someone who feels that they are qualified to write reviews of new products. Like, this is literally like if someone was trying to review a horror movie and they said that they just couldn't understand the "found footage" horror subgenre and that they just really didn't understand Blair Witch or anything that came after it.

Anyway, the idea of customizing the rules as you go along is fucking retarded, especially if there isn't a constant MC to fall back on. This whole thing sounds like it's "not actually finished" with many difficult design decisions simply punted to the consumer with unresolved developer conversations simply left hanging. That's neither functional nor acceptable.

In any case, Gloomhaven exists, and it sounds like it's basically a better version of this.

-Username17

[Thaluikhain]

"In many ways, it resembles a computer product that is always in Beta"

I'm at a loss as to how to respond to someone saying something like that in a glowing review. At first glance that looks like homeopathy levels of unlogic, and it still does at second or third glance.

"kafka has written 179 reviews, with average style of 4.58 and average substance of 4.59"

Hmmm

[Avoraciopoctules]

I really don't like the way this website is formatted, but it looks like there IS some actual material available for free.

https://www.emberwindgame.com/bestiary/

The monsters are all on their own PDFs, with bosses having more complicated AI routines.

https://www.emberwindgame.com/wp-conten ... rtless.pdf

https://www.emberwindgame.com/wp-conten ... rtless.pdf

Ouch, 1000 hit points on a boss? Compared to 35 on a teleporting blaster goon. It sounds like a big final confrontation is supposed to drag on a while.

[DragonChild]

That review is bullshit and i wouldnt listen to anything in it. Ive run the first campaign twice.

The "optional stuff" in the campaign is literally just things listed under a "hard mode" header. Before you play, decide if you want to do.hard mode or not. Done. The designer has also been extremely active in fixing perceived problems amd balance issues.

The game is basically a group cyoa that competes with thr like of Gloomhaven or Rangers of Shadowdeep. It is pretty expensive - which is my biggest issue with it - but offers the most character variability amoung those options. I also hope well be seeing cheap/free fan adventures at some people.

Design wise, the game has a lot of good ideas - not to say its perfect, but doing stuff like getting rid of ability scores and just asking what stats youd like is great. The abilities are very much intended to play off of and combo with each other - they feel more in line with mtg design than d&d, and theres a good mix of within class and across class combos.

I likely wouldnt ever use the system to run a dmed game, myself. But its been a lot easier to jump into than something loke gloomhaven, and less of a commitment - but again, admittedly less for your money.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Thanks for the insights! It sounds like I ought to look at this as a competitor to Arcadia Quest and Darkest Night, then. I've been looking for a decent boardgame for the group, and lower-commitment rules would be good for the ones who aren't entertained learning complex systems.

[DragonChild]

Skies of axia will last about 3 sessions, and is best with the same 4 players currently. So its not going to fill that gap youre looking for currently - this is never going to displace Spirit Island from my game bag (which has gotten rid of Arkham Horror to me).. But it will provide a quick alternative to pandemic legacy, and the game is still not even fully released yet - I do think its success is going to depens on how much fanmade stuff gets made.

There a re example characters, rules primers, and example encounters online too, so if you want to you can just try it.

Emberwind more belongs alongside gloomhaven, pandemic legacy, rangers of shadowdeep, or the coop lcgs.

[JigokuBosatsu]

Looking at that bestiary, the monster moves reminded me of an oversimplified version of the Hex Flower, which I thought was pretty nifty when I read about it.

[Username17]

this is never going to displace Spirit Island from my game bag (which has gotten rid of Arkham Horror to me)

I like Spirit Island a lot, and replacing Arkham Horror is pretty reasonable. It's a strong co-op game with a lot of dials to make the game easier or harder but the setup and play times are much more manageable than Arkham Horror and there are a lot less moving parts. It's like if Arkham Horror had been designed and refined until there was nothing left in the game that wasn't actually important.

I haven't played the expansion with the Jaguars, descriptions of it seemed like it didn't add anything the game particularly needed. Any thoughts on that?

-Username17

[DragonChild]

this is never going to displace Spirit Island from my game bag (which has gotten rid of Arkham Horror to me)

I like Spirit Island a lot, and replacing Arkham Horror is pretty reasonable. It's a strong co-op game with a lot of dials to make the game easier or harder but the setup and play times are much more manageable than Arkham Horror and there are a lot less moving parts. It's like if Arkham Horror had been designed and refined until there was nothing left in the game that wasn't actually important.

I haven't played the expansion with the Jaguars, descriptions of it seemed like it didn't add anything the game particularly needed. Any thoughts on that?

-Username17

This maybe deserves its own thread, but...

Branch and Claw adds a few different things I think are worth noting individually:

New Island and Fear Cards: Not a huge deal, but new island cards are a pretty nice benefit, as the base game only came with 2.

New powers, especially ones that use new tokens: The new token types can block an explore, a build, or a ravage on their own. Having powers that can give a benefit that might only come into play down the road (if at all, but usually SOMETIME if you're at the right difficulty) is neat. It opens up some decision space, and "Block the next explore that would be here" is a cool use of a power.

Two new spirits:

Sharp Fangs Beneath the Leaves plays a mobile wargame style like Thunderspeaker, moving presence and tokens around to kill stuff, but is a little faster on the set-up, less risky (its beast tokens can't die like Dahan can), and less high value late game. It's easier for it to get locked out of places (it can't work well where there's blight), and is the first spirit to really focus on Animal element. It's maybe a little weak, but fun - I personally prefer Thunderspeaker but I know some who like Sharp Fangs instead.

Keeper of the Forbidden Wilds sets up lots of tokens that block exploration, and slowly builds up to massive strikes. It's got a weak early game, but an absolutely devastating late game - and can place two presence a turn with an energy boost. It's a unique play style that I like a lot, and while maybe a bit too strong, is pretty open to disruption. It plays a game of zone control, and plays very poorly with the Dahan - but can force them out of its land.

France: France is a fun adversary that puts down 2 explorers and turns extra explorers into towns, as well as instant winning if there are enough towns on the board. It's kinda similar to England, but a lot more spread out, and blocking explores instead of blocking builds is the important part. Also uniquely, France has a *beneficial* event to you, where there's a slave rebellion at each stage change, where if you set up right, the Dahan end up destroying towns, and "making" new Dahan (with the flavor text of the freed slaves join the Dahan). It's a fun element where you have to decide to push against what's going on right now, vs trying to set up for the big bonus. I like it a lot.

The Event Deck: This is the big thing that some people don't like (I'm not one of them). The event deck does a thing every turn before the invaders. The events cards are usually a mixed bag of 2-3 events: if one of the events is bad, you'll get one or two good things, or they'll be a mixture like "Place a disease token to block the next build, but remove a Dahan from that land". Some events give you options between two choices, one of which tends to be worse, and another which requires energy to activate, but is cheaper if you can play/discard/forget cards of a certain element. So basically a lot going on. It breaks up what can otherwise feel like a bit mechanical and rote enemies, with new twists. The one thing I would suggest is the designer has said the next expansion's rulebook is going to say "Skip the event on your first turn" which is a MUST. There's also maybe one event I could see an argument for removing from the book. But basically I think anything that occasionally forces you to change plans is good.

I've also tried some of the Jagged Earth spirits - print and play versions of the next expansion were posted on BGG - they're a lot more complicated, but have some wild ideas that I like, like the volcano that can only put presence on mountains.

There's also two promos spirits - I'm not a fan of the Serpent and how it effects the game, but I think the Wildfire is a ton of fun, and there are images of it on Board Game Geek - I printed them out before actually playing. If you haven't yet, I'd absolutely do so, especially as you don't have to worry about matching card sleeves for spirits.

There are previews of Jagged Earth spirits up there too, which are a bunch more complicated...

[Kaelik]

I've only played with the expansion(s?) but I love Serpent and Keeper, and I think the Event deck does add a fair amount.

[OgreBattle]

How does Spirit Island play? There things to poach to a tabletop RPG?

[Kaelik]

How does Spirit Island play? There things to poach to a tabletop RPG?

You have a board state of territories with different environments, Wetlands, Jungle, Desert, Ocean, Mountains. There are colonizers in various locations (and potentially natives, and potentially predators, disease epidemics, and uh... revolts?) You also have your Spiritual Presence in territories.

You have a hand of cards, an energy pool, and a number of cards you can play each turn. Placing presence tokens on the board increases the energy you gain each turn or increases the number of cards you can play.

Each card has a range, a target, something it does, and a bunch of symbols on the side. when you play a card, the symbols become elements that power up your spirit powers.

There are fast and slow powers, so you do all the fast stuff on your cards and in your inherent powers, then the colonizers go, then you do the slow stuff.

It's pretty daunting when you first look at it because there is so much stuff, but each thing is so inherently understandable that most people after the first couple turns of the first game being walked through it seem to be 100% on board and know what they are doing.

I don't think there is much to apply to TTRPGs.

[Username17]

About the only things you could apply to TTRPGs are the initiative system and possibly the escalation system. In Spirit Island you have energy that you can invest in your powers at he beginning of the turn and those powers are either fast or slow. The fast powers go off before the invaders act, and the slow powers go off after the invaders act.

The escalation but is that the amount of energy you get to spend and actions you get to take goes up as the game goes on. Specifically, the presence tokens start on your spirit sheet covering up better numbers. So the act of taking presence tokens off your sheet and putting them on the board also inherently gives you more leeway in using your powers. It's a very organic way of having your spirit's interaction with the island expand as the conflict escalates. I could see something like that where you had tokens that you spent off your character sheet that uncovered new numbers - but it would be really hard to make that work when many character sheets are dorito stained lined paper thrice erased pencil marks.

-Username17

[Chamomile]

I think one of the biggest areas tabletop RPGs should learn from board games is in character sheet design. There are certainly some limitations accounting from tabletop RPGs do not and cannot ship with components the way board games do, but the era of dorito-stained lined paper is mostly over. When I was in high school, that was totally a thing, but when my little brother was in high school, smart phones were so ubiquitous that using a pocket-sized supercomputer to store your character information was what the poor kids without printer access were forced to resort to. If you can make it work on a computer printed character sheet and also on a phone app, your audience has access to your new character sheet technology, including things like moving a d6 off of the sheet to reveal a power-up you get for having expended the power or the conditions under which you could recover the expended power or whatever.

The main thing is, people will want printed character sheets over the phone app in most cases, and you don't want them to have to print out a new character sheet every level up if possible, so whatever is written by the machine onto the sheet needs to be set at level 1 and can't change after that. You either need the thing written in the box that goes under the dice to be some kind of dice equation that anyone can write into a very small space, or it needs to be fixed in advance for the whole character's career such that whatever the computer puts there will never have to be edited.

[deaddmwalking]

The main thing is, people will want printed character sheets over the phone app in most cases, and you don't want them to have to print out a new character sheet every level up if possible, so whatever is written by the machine onto the sheet needs to be set at level 1 and can't change after that.

No. Nobody wants that. You are crazy and I seriously doubt you are a human being.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Everyone I know uses Mythweavers or PCGen for character sheets. We might have printed them out a few years ago, but it seems kinda wasteful when modern character sheets can do stuff like calculate changes in derived stats much faster than a human.

I'm sure some groups still use paper sheets, it can be handy as a reference. But there are plenty of groups that use exclusively digital.

[pragma]

I really prefer paper sheets so players aren't looking at their phones. Digital ones seem like an invitation to distraction to me. That said, I usually write some software to assist with char gen for anything more complex than D&D.

[Axebird]

I started playing tabletop RPGs in 2008 and have never once used a paper sheet for anything or played with anyone who still does. I have a hard time imagining why someone would do that for any reason other than necessity.