Nobody else has said it yet, but one of the biggest drawbacks to Dragonlance 3.5 is that all the shit that happened leading up to that point, nobody really fucking cares about unless they're already well-into the game. Like, Krynn's dragons were smaller than those in other settings which is why when the big dragons showed up from other planes it was a big frackin' deal.
But Dragonlance wasn't one of the stable settings in WotC's roster in 3.5, anymore than Ravenloft was - they let other companies publish those settings, with maybe some glancing shit in Dragon Magazine. And for the most part nobody missed it. Dragonlance was always weird and didn't quite follow the rules even by the standards of other AD&D settings, and the 3.5 edition provided basically nothing to encourage people they actually wanted to play there.
OSSR: 3.5 Dragonlance Campaign Setting
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Ancient History
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Ancient History wrote:Nobody else has said it yet, but one of the biggest drawbacks to Dragonlance 3.5 is that all the shit that happened leading up to that point, nobody really fucking cares about unless they're already well-into the game. Like, Krynn's dragons were smaller than those in other settings which is why when the big dragons showed up from other planes it was a big frackin' deal.
But Dragonlance wasn't one of the stable settings in WotC's roster in 3.5, anymore than Ravenloft was - they let other companies publish those settings, with maybe some glancing shit in Dragon Magazine. And for the most part nobody missed it. Dragonlance was always weird and didn't quite follow the rules even by the standards of other AD&D settings, and the 3.5 edition provided basically nothing to encourage people they actually wanted to play there.
I own this book as well as the age of mortals campign setting and 1-20 Adventure path. It isn't terrible for plot, infact it is probably better than the original war of the lance adventures because it doesn't require a gigantic party and it also assumes high level characters will do high level things.
That said, Krynn is most interesting during the war of the lance. The age of mortals feels like a kludge. Instead of saying "Krynn has these things but not these other things" they made a reason for their to be everything in 3rd edition. Additionally, so much wierd shit had happened in the novels that the setting no longer has its "fantasy epic" feel.
Dragonlance should have moved forward as a setting that didn't have prepared casters anymore. I actually started a list of about 15 things that 3.X dragonlance should have done but it doesn't matter because they didn't and nobody cares about this setting.
On the one hand, your assessment is basically accurate. On the other hand, I would be interested in seeing the list anyway for academic purposes.souran wrote: Dragonlance should have moved forward as a setting that didn't have prepared casters anymore. I actually started a list of about 15 things that 3.X dragonlance should have done but it doesn't matter because they didn't and nobody cares about this setting.
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Thaluikhain
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Was it ever explained what "Dragon Highlord" actually means? Some of them have massive armies and numbers of dragons (normally all the same colour dragon), and some have a few mooks and maybe one dragon, but they have the same title.
Also:
Always felt sorry for the White Dragons, weediest of the dragons, less intelligent (there's some mention in book 2 of the original trilogy that this is due to a eugenics program or something), don't get to do anything cool like hang around with giant armies of goblins and ogres, they've got the Thanoi that nobody cares about as the evil humanoid where they live.
Also:
Don't they still have to follow the orders of Takhisis and so it doesn't matter if they are reclusive? And what are they guarding Icewall against and what's there to guard?Libertad wrote:White Dragons are the most rare and reclusive of the chromatic dragons, sticking to the Icewall region of southern Ansalon. They have almost no interest in world affairs and are very anti-social, making them of limited use in military campaigns. During the War of the Lance the extent of their roles were as scouts and to guard the Icewall region against attack. Additionally, they hate the sunlight, and being exposed to it and warm temperatures over a prolonged period causes them to sicken and die (this is not reflected in game statistics, just flavor text).
Always felt sorry for the White Dragons, weediest of the dragons, less intelligent (there's some mention in book 2 of the original trilogy that this is due to a eugenics program or something), don't get to do anything cool like hang around with giant armies of goblins and ogres, they've got the Thanoi that nobody cares about as the evil humanoid where they live.
Well, if you insist. The first thing is that I am not a DL expert or superfan. I read the original war of the lance novels for the first time in high school in the 90s. It was recommended to me by the same person who recommended the belgariad. I recommend him the dragonbone chair, the wheel of time, thomas covenant, and game of thrones. I will say I also recommended the shannara series and wizards first rule to him so he got some stinkers too.
So that said dragonlances appeal is that it is the campaign setting for telling good vs. evil fantasy epics like memory, sorrow and thorn, LOTR, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant or Shannara. So instead of trying to be a kitchen sink D&D setting like most of the rest of published settings, limit the scope in order to give the things you do insert more personality.
Early DL did an OK job at this. Krynn's minotaurs are actually a cool and interesting take. It's draconians are also interesting.
When the 3rd edition DL setting was published the owners of the setting should have made some hard choices. The simpliest one would have been to publish the setting as it was at the beginning of the war of the lance. Indicate that while an individual DM can do what they want but that during this era dragonlance does not have spontaneous casters. Republish updated versions of the original DL series adventures that let you play with a party of 4-5 instead of 8-12 and reorganize it so that instead of splitting the party that a single party can do both the "northern" and "southern" haves and have the campaign go from level 1-15+.
What I was getting into above is the other option. A D&D setting where most of the world is ruled over by evil dragons may not be novel but it can easily be epic. Here are my thoughts on how the 3.x DL shoudl have been.
1) As noted above, do not bring back prepared casters. Make all casters in DL be spontaneous. DL introduces a spontaneous cleric (mystic) that is not great but serviceable with a little more thought. Just have no wizards, no clerics, no paladins and no rangers. Paladins get a replacement in DL in the form of the knights anyway so they don't matter as much. Making a 3.x spelless ranger or making them function as spontaneous casters is fairly trivial. This is a rules based change.
2) Make it clear that DL has a limited number of types of humanoids, no orcs, no lycanthropes, etc. Additionally, as many types of humanoids as you will have in the game should be playable as possible. So playable PC goblins and Ogres and Minotaurs. This is rule based change.
3) Related to the above but you also cannot summon just anything out of the MM in Krynn either. Jinn and other pseudo elementals should probably be a no. Additionally, demons/devils and angels should be altered to adapt to Krynns unique cosmology. The blood war and crap like that are just not parts of Krynn or shouldn't matter to krynnish games.
4) Everycaster should be affected by the moons. The three magical moons are actually not a bad idea. However, they should do something and be worked into both arcane and divine casters.
5) STOP HAVING THE GODS GO AWAY and COME BACK. Whatever you do make this stop being a thing.
6) Having good, neutral, and evil knightly orders is dumb. Honestly having both good and evil knightly orders is almost groan worthy.
7) The major humanoids each need to have a distinct homeland that they occupy. Having the elves be kicked out of both their homelands is terribad. A big recognizable goblin kingdom (ruled by a dragon) should be added. There was a goblin kingdom near Solemnia that would work.
8) A lot of the most problematic elements are 30+ years old. Yes the gully dwarves are awful. Yes kinder are frustrating. However, having the kinder all get bad touched was... maybe less than a solid idea. Using the book as a way to clean up gnomes/dwarves/kinder would be a solid idea. Just don't molest them when you do so.
9) If you are going to have a bunch of large dragons as the principle antagonists you should introduce them and make sure that they have a purpose. Also in your AP your PCs need to kill more than 1 of them.
10) Your AP should use some of the interesting places described in your campaign sourcebook. Instead of making a bunch of new places that were never described and don't show up on your setting maps use what you lay out in an interesting way.
That's 10 and all I can deal with at this time of the evening. We can discuss more detail on any 1 of them if thats where this thread ever goes.
So that said dragonlances appeal is that it is the campaign setting for telling good vs. evil fantasy epics like memory, sorrow and thorn, LOTR, Chronicles of Thomas Covenant or Shannara. So instead of trying to be a kitchen sink D&D setting like most of the rest of published settings, limit the scope in order to give the things you do insert more personality.
Early DL did an OK job at this. Krynn's minotaurs are actually a cool and interesting take. It's draconians are also interesting.
When the 3rd edition DL setting was published the owners of the setting should have made some hard choices. The simpliest one would have been to publish the setting as it was at the beginning of the war of the lance. Indicate that while an individual DM can do what they want but that during this era dragonlance does not have spontaneous casters. Republish updated versions of the original DL series adventures that let you play with a party of 4-5 instead of 8-12 and reorganize it so that instead of splitting the party that a single party can do both the "northern" and "southern" haves and have the campaign go from level 1-15+.
What I was getting into above is the other option. A D&D setting where most of the world is ruled over by evil dragons may not be novel but it can easily be epic. Here are my thoughts on how the 3.x DL shoudl have been.
1) As noted above, do not bring back prepared casters. Make all casters in DL be spontaneous. DL introduces a spontaneous cleric (mystic) that is not great but serviceable with a little more thought. Just have no wizards, no clerics, no paladins and no rangers. Paladins get a replacement in DL in the form of the knights anyway so they don't matter as much. Making a 3.x spelless ranger or making them function as spontaneous casters is fairly trivial. This is a rules based change.
2) Make it clear that DL has a limited number of types of humanoids, no orcs, no lycanthropes, etc. Additionally, as many types of humanoids as you will have in the game should be playable as possible. So playable PC goblins and Ogres and Minotaurs. This is rule based change.
3) Related to the above but you also cannot summon just anything out of the MM in Krynn either. Jinn and other pseudo elementals should probably be a no. Additionally, demons/devils and angels should be altered to adapt to Krynns unique cosmology. The blood war and crap like that are just not parts of Krynn or shouldn't matter to krynnish games.
4) Everycaster should be affected by the moons. The three magical moons are actually not a bad idea. However, they should do something and be worked into both arcane and divine casters.
5) STOP HAVING THE GODS GO AWAY and COME BACK. Whatever you do make this stop being a thing.
6) Having good, neutral, and evil knightly orders is dumb. Honestly having both good and evil knightly orders is almost groan worthy.
7) The major humanoids each need to have a distinct homeland that they occupy. Having the elves be kicked out of both their homelands is terribad. A big recognizable goblin kingdom (ruled by a dragon) should be added. There was a goblin kingdom near Solemnia that would work.
8) A lot of the most problematic elements are 30+ years old. Yes the gully dwarves are awful. Yes kinder are frustrating. However, having the kinder all get bad touched was... maybe less than a solid idea. Using the book as a way to clean up gnomes/dwarves/kinder would be a solid idea. Just don't molest them when you do so.
9) If you are going to have a bunch of large dragons as the principle antagonists you should introduce them and make sure that they have a purpose. Also in your AP your PCs need to kill more than 1 of them.
10) Your AP should use some of the interesting places described in your campaign sourcebook. Instead of making a bunch of new places that were never described and don't show up on your setting maps use what you lay out in an interesting way.
That's 10 and all I can deal with at this time of the evening. We can discuss more detail on any 1 of them if thats where this thread ever goes.
@souran:
Dragonlance is a series with potential but is mired in the wider gaming fandom for what it did wrong.
1.) This will take away a lot of iconic D&D classes, and cause fans to rebel. Would've been too risky.
2.) Bestiary of Krynn tried to make playable monsters for a variety of humanoids, although it used the shoddy ECL/LA rules for making Savage Species style monster classes.
3.) Indeed. I think there were some obscure rules mentioning how planar travel to the 3 "outer planes" for good/neutral/evil gods was impossible, although it's not a big bolded rule.
4.) Moon-based casting tends to be either meticulously tracked or ignored by most gaming groups.
5.) Most DL fans pretend that Summer Flame never happened, so yeah.
6.) This is a consequence of the objective morality of D&D. Although to be honest the Legion of Steel seemed less Switzerland Knights and more a general progressive "discard the old" type of knightly order, emphasizing practicality over chivalry. Which can be a good way to distinguish them.
7.) Special snowflake elves are annoying, but I have a soft spot for Diaspora characters scattered across the world. It makes traveling to find a new home, or the ancestral one, have a weightier aspect and can provide good campaign fodder for PCs.
8.) I wrote up alternate gully dwarves and kender a while ago, but for the life of me I can't recall where.
9.) the original Chronicles had each adventure themed around a specific type of dragon. I dunno if Key of Destiny went this route, it's been forever since I read it.
10.) Speaking of which, the Key of Destiny does this.
Fun fact: the 3rd Edition Dragonlance sourcebooks published by Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions provided alternate Ages/eras and even parallel realities to play in. The War of the Lance sourcebook detailed Ansalon during the Age of Despair, while the classic Chronicles were updated to 3rd Edition in Dragons of Summer/Winter/Spring.
Dragonlance is a series with potential but is mired in the wider gaming fandom for what it did wrong.
1.) This will take away a lot of iconic D&D classes, and cause fans to rebel. Would've been too risky.
2.) Bestiary of Krynn tried to make playable monsters for a variety of humanoids, although it used the shoddy ECL/LA rules for making Savage Species style monster classes.
3.) Indeed. I think there were some obscure rules mentioning how planar travel to the 3 "outer planes" for good/neutral/evil gods was impossible, although it's not a big bolded rule.
4.) Moon-based casting tends to be either meticulously tracked or ignored by most gaming groups.
5.) Most DL fans pretend that Summer Flame never happened, so yeah.
6.) This is a consequence of the objective morality of D&D. Although to be honest the Legion of Steel seemed less Switzerland Knights and more a general progressive "discard the old" type of knightly order, emphasizing practicality over chivalry. Which can be a good way to distinguish them.
7.) Special snowflake elves are annoying, but I have a soft spot for Diaspora characters scattered across the world. It makes traveling to find a new home, or the ancestral one, have a weightier aspect and can provide good campaign fodder for PCs.
8.) I wrote up alternate gully dwarves and kender a while ago, but for the life of me I can't recall where.
9.) the original Chronicles had each adventure themed around a specific type of dragon. I dunno if Key of Destiny went this route, it's been forever since I read it.
10.) Speaking of which, the Key of Destiny does this.
Fun fact: the 3rd Edition Dragonlance sourcebooks published by Sovereign Press/Margaret Weis Productions provided alternate Ages/eras and even parallel realities to play in. The War of the Lance sourcebook detailed Ansalon during the Age of Despair, while the classic Chronicles were updated to 3rd Edition in Dragons of Summer/Winter/Spring.
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Thaluikhain
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Ah, but they went to a third homeland and stayed there, at least for a bit. Having two lost homelands of elves seems alright if they've got a third that they don't lose.souran wrote:Having the elves be kicked out of both their homelands is terribad.
Actually, IMHO, the bit with the elves trying to out annoyingly elf each other and being on the verge of civil war was one of the highlights of the original trilogy.