Review: Dragon Warriors Book 6: The Lands of Legend

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Thaluikhain
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Review: Dragon Warriors Book 6: The Lands of Legend

Post by Thaluikhain »

Image

(I particularly like that cover, as it's the same colour as the spine, making it easier to find on a bookshelf if I remember the picture on the front is the all yellow one)

The book starts with an introduction explaining how important a setting is for a FRP, but that Dave Morris didn't want to include too many details because it's best to leave that to individual GMs. He gives some broad ideas for campaigns you might want to run, such as playing as either side during the Crusades. He also mentions the idea of playing in settings beyond the scope of this book, such as in a yet unknown continent to the west, or in the future, when musket and rapier replaces bow and sword. While, yes, you could do this, you'd require a whole new setting for the first one (something he later worked on) or a whole new set of rules for the latter. Either way, stop reading this book.

Chapter One, The Lie of the Land, is only 40 pages long, but covers a massive area, Legend's equivalent of Europe and bits of Asia and Africa, so there's little detail for each country you might want to set a game in. The scenarios in the previous 5 books have been put into Legend's version of Britain, now called Ellesland. England gets slightly less than two pages (paperback sized pages, mind, not A4 hardback rulebook pages) as "Albion". Albion is currently facing a crisis due to a bad ruler. Which, of course, is notable in that this book was published in England in 1986.

Ereworn gets a bit of a retcon, it looks very different on the map, there's more evil nobles and the Harbinger Clan of Assassins. It's been suggested that this might have been inspired by the IRA, but I think it's much more likely that Morris simply realised that Japan isn't very close to Europe and he needed a nearby source of ninjas. OTOH, Ereworn is about where Lancaster would be. Glissom is described basically as "like Ereworn and see Book 5".

The Roman Selentine Empire broke up ages ago, Italy Asmulas is only important in a spiritual sense and the Crusades are bogged down a bit beyond the holy city of Ibrahim.

A few places here appear elsewhere, either in published works or campaigns that Morris has played himself. Leo Hartas came up with the Rathurbosk, a big bridge which is also a city, and which was stuck (a bit awkwardly) into DW, being way too fancy for a medieval setting without lots of fancy toys. It's on the way to Krarth, which would feature about a year later in the Bloodsword games. Though according to Morris, those books aren't quite canon, got two continuities already. Robert Dale created a town called Brymstone for an earlier game, which is on one of the maps of Ellesland. It was going to be expanded upon in the 7th DW book (which didn't happen) and was going to be in a short lived magazine called Red Giant (cause we aren't intimidated by White Dwarf) that was going to run beyond two issues (which also didn't happen). I think White Dwarf won that one.

There's a lot of nations going through (or recently gone through) change described in this chapter. With the exception of Krarth (mages tried doing impressive magic things and it went impressively bad), these are normal mundane changes, the result of having weak or strong rulers, the rise of the merchant class, or it being more profitable to trade rather than raid and so on. Also, Morris has mostly avoided a fantasy or historical kitchen sink. Emphidor is Greece, but it isn't Ancient Greece, it's Greece centuries later, long after anyone really cared about Greece. I like that, helps bind the world together and keeps things grounded.

There's a few problems with this, though. You have DW's version of the Crusades going on. Which is a problem, not so much because of racist depictions (there isn't much there, but what's there seems pretty decent), but because Crusades requires Crusaders looking for people to fights and/or treasure to take, explicitly enough that their absence created great social change and made life much more peaceful for those back home. Which means you shouldn't have ancient ruins full of monsters to fight and treasure to take in their backyards. Ereworn works because it used to be a stable kingdom that's fallen apart relatively recently and monsters have moved in, not simultaneously full of people spoiling for a rumble and monsters that've gone unrumbled.

I was going to say that there are a few other things that don't seem to fit the theme, such as Volucreths (boring bird-people that aren't magic or anything, just another sentient race that exist for no adequately explained reason) or explicitly magic kingdoms, but these tend to be way off on the edges of the map (or beyond), maybe he was going for "it's weird way over there". Still didn't need to be reminded that Volucreths are a thing though.

The writing style is fairly nice, and there's some good evocative bits to get the feel across, but 40 pages really isn't much for the amount of territory it's got to cover. Especially when so much of DW is about European fairy tales and the like, there's not much point having an Africa if you don't have African things to put in it. As I said in my review of book 4, there's only about 100 monsters in the bestiaries. Spreading them out across different continents means they are a bit thin on the ground. Would have been much better to concentrate on Europe (or maybe even just Britain, as the book will focus other stuff on there in later chapters), develop that area in detail and have 100ish monsters that are right for there. Cross your fingers that you'll get to develop other regions in later books. Though, Morris was deliberately avoiding putting too much detail in as a design choice.
Last edited by Thaluikhain on Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Oddly, the Selentines are also the name of the not-Romans in the Warlords series. I have no idea whether that's related or not. Warlords came from Australia in 1989.

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Post by Thaluikhain »

The turn based strategy computer game? They did have "Bartonian Knights", which always seemed like either a rip-off or a parody of GW"s Brettonian Knights, so perhaps. DW was published in Australia and the timing would be about right.
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Post by Nath »

I don't know about the original edition, but the French edition only has a map of Elleslande at the beginning of the chapter on page 14. There are maps of the rest of the world much later in the book, a physical map on pages 168-171 (in the chapter about travel), and landscape map on pages 266-269 (for some reasons right before the two last pages of the adventure). The latter show the major cities, but none of the border or country name, so you had to figure out where each countries was based on the cities named and the description.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

The English version has a political divisions map near the beginning, and for some reason a 1 page version of the terrain map that's also in a 4 page map at the end of the adventure. Also the Ellesland map and a "physical geography".

Not including the political map seems a pretty big oopsy, but they did have that sort of problem a few times.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Chapter Two, The Lore of Legend is about folklore and myth. This includes "Places of magic and mystery" and "Traveler's Tales", buried (alphabetically) in a list of mostly magical stuff you may or may not want to use in your game, but that are intended to give examples of the flavour of the setting. Again, dealing with stuff all over means you sorta don't have a consistent flavour, you've got stuff like Hand of Glory and an android that you totally shouldn't call an android but the book does. Some nice stuff, though, and presumably you'd not only use whichever parts fit your campaign.

Chapter Three Debris from Babel is about the various languages of the world, where they are spoken, what scripts they use, how long they take to learn and so on. Good, solid, realistic looking if fairly unremarkable rulesy stuff here if you like that sort of thing. Of note is "Arcane", the language used to cast Sorcerer spells, so all Sorcerers know this and thus any Sorcerers from anywhere in the world can talk to each other, but only about magic things.

I think Latter Mercanian and Modern Mercanian are the same language with not enough proof-reading. Likewise, Visic and Vasic, which I suspect might have started off as "Basic" and had some letters swapped to make it sound less basic. Angate probably should have had a written form that was left out, and I don't know what the difference between High and Low Cabbandari is. Could have used some editing there.

Personally, I think most people aren't going to like that sort of thing, in practice. Who is going to spend d6 years of game time to learn Ancient Kaikuhuran? Also, in Elleslandic is only spoken by natives in part of Ellesland. That is annoying partly because looking at the map it's a bit like saying Wales is part of England and Ireland and Scotland don't count, but mostly because some of the scenarios in the previous books are in the Elleslandic speaking bits and most are in the Visic speaking bits. Does everyone in your party speak both Visic and Elleslandic? Does anyone in your party speak both Visic and Elleslandic? The answer to the former is likely to be "no", and the answer to the latter isn't unlikely to be "no". Which would be a headache or make some of the scenarios basically unplayable (rules as written), respectively.

Now, sure, that can be handwaved away easily enough, everyone just speaks both Visic and Elleslandic fluently for some reason. Beyond the odd time they team up with an NPC that reads Ancient Kaikuhuran when visiting a pyramid or something, this is the approach I'd imagine gets taken any time language comes up. There's a lot of places to visit and lots of languages. Greece Emphidor and three nearby countries got less than a page and a half of text in the last chapter combined, and each of them has their own language. You going to spend a few months learning the language or muck about with an interpreter every time you cross the border for a new regional flavour? If you answer "yes" to that, fine, you'll probably like Chapter Three, but I'd expect you might be in the minority there.

Now, it does mention Latin Bacchile as the language of the old Roman Selentine Empire that most educated people know. But then most people, including adventurers (notable exception of Sorcerers and Warlocks) don't count as educated, so useful, but doesn't fix the problem.
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Chapter Four The Calendar is about the calendar. Or rather, the calendar for the north-western lands. Presumably the north-western lands of this part of the book, presumably corresponding to England and it's neighbours on the mainland (and not other north-western countries). Apparently, because they were part of the Selentine Empire, they use the Reman Calendar, which seems odd. Normally if you say "Reman", I'd guess that in your universe Remas beat Romulus and founded the city, but that's expressly not the case here, don't know why they don't just have a Selentine Calendar for the Selentine Empire.

Anyway, there are 365 days in a year, except for every fourth year which has another one, there are twelve months in a year. Ok, I think I can wrap my head around that. There's also give the Elleslandic names of the month for some reason, and what people in Ellesland (probably Albion specifically) are up to then. We've also get the Elleslandic days of the week, and are told that lots of places have a different number of days per week, but not many details on where or how many. The book does that a bit, assume that you'll set your campaign in Albion, despite having rules nominally for everywhere. Eh, skip it, though it's just over two pages so not like wasting a lot of the book.

Chapter Five Crime and Punishment is about the legal systems in "this part of Legend", though what part that is isn't clearly specified. There are 6 of these, dealing with different sorts of crimes and jurisdictions, and four of those are too complicated to have rules for.

For the other two (which work the same way), there's twelve pages about social standings and severity of crimes and bribe ratings and stuff like that. Good solid rulesy stuff there. Though, it's mentioned that killing a member of the militia is a "heinous" crime for bribe purposes the first time crime severities come up, because you bribe the militia first and they aren't keen on that crime. If that fails and you try bribing the judge later, rules as written they care about murdering the militia as much as the militia does, which I'm not sure was intended.

I like how it explicitly states that PCs shouldn't off random NPCs that annoy them cause that's unrealistic and would bring the law (or experience point loss) down on them. Which, yeah, might be worth pointing out. Also that medieval justice really isn't like 20th century justice, and some stuff about the feudal nature of societies, or at least whichever societies are feudal, and some bits and pieces about individual countries and how the law is applied differently there.

All very well and good, bulks out the limited amount of details in the first chapter, but only applies to certain areas and it's not entirely clear which areas those are. The example given is set in not Venice, I'd have guessed that'd be one of the places using some other system/s.
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Chapter Six Wargames is about wargames, specifically the tourneys and similar events knights get up to. It's a bit Knight centric, though other Professions can get involved, they let Barbarians in the fighting, Assassins help rich people cheat, sometimes a noble's kid will be a Mystic, and nobles have Sorcerers to provide healing. I Like that it mentions that in some areas they are likely to have Elementalists, not Sorcerers. Can't provide healing, and region locking them would limit them if they were a serious option for PCs, which they aren't, so it's nice from a theme point of view to have some places have wannabe Sorcerers instead of proper ones. I also like the mention that Warlocks (described later) aren't well understood by everyone else, so any Knight that does well might get called that.

There's some nice bits about how the ideal tourney works and how in the real game world that doesn't happen in lots of places, how the church is worried that it'll distract Knights from the Crusades, and how Crusader Knights will allow not-Muslims in their tourneys.

It also mentions the gladiatorial arenas of Rome Selentium, and how everything is written there in the Classical script (guess leaving Angate out earlier was an oversight). More importantly, it's about how the Selentium arenas are like the Roman ones, in that all the really nasty stuff happened centuries ago and it's all non-lethal contests or go back a few chapters to the bit about bribing judges to get off murder charges. Which is nice, don't remember somewhere (beyond sorta kinda Dragonlance) that has arenas that used to be Roman murder fests but aren't anymore.

Now, they do have murder fests up north in Krarth, but those are more Deathtrap dungeon (which was published 2 years before this book), or perhaps Duelmaster 4: Arena of Death (which was published 1 year after this book) than Roman. Dave Morris was connected to the people and companies that did those, but I don't know if there was any direct influences. The Running Man came out the year after his book, and The Hunger Games some decades afterwards, and I don't see any reason to assume they weren't thought up separately.


Chapter Seven In the Beginning is full of optional rules for creating a character's background if you can't think of one for yourself. You really want to think of one for yourself, as these rules are just bad.

Most characters roll percentile dice to see what your family's social standing was, and some results mean you come from a certain society in a certain place. You could, for example, be a Tamorian Cataphract from the New Selentine Empire, or a descendant of the Magi of Krarth. There's a couple of problems with this, firstly it was previously established that Mystics can come from any part of society, and the results here only allow Knights to be Cataphracts and not all Magi have magical powers and the results here don't allow Knights to be Magi.

Rather more importantly, the Cataphracts would speak Angate and the Magi would speak Cabbandari (High or Low or both or whatever). A few chapters back I asked if everyone or anyone in the party spoke both Elleslandic and Visic, using these rules it's not impossible for everyone in the party to speak neither the language of the region the game is set in and no other languages anyone else in the party speaks.

What region you come from determines your native language, and most characters only have one language so you really don't want this to be randomly determined. Now, for Knights, Mystics, Warlocks and Sorcerers, this is very unlikely (but not impossible), presumably they'd be charcoal burners or gentry or whatever of wherever the campaign was initially set most of the time. The odds of being a Cataphract or Magi are quite low. But for Assassins they also have a 43% chance of being trained by a specific organisation, and thus having the language of where that is based. For Barbarians and Elementalists you always have to roll on a chart to see which region you are from.

The Barbarian one isn't great, Barbarians in Dragon Warriors are chainmail wearing berserkers with big axes or sword and horns on their helmets, and the chart can say that you are from a mountain range in not Africa where the people fight with spears and slings, or from the deserts of not Arabia.

Admittedly, Barbarians get substantial modifiers on the roll to see if they know another language, being widely traveled, but that doesn't seem sufficient. Everyone else is unlikely to speak a second (modern) language.

Elementalists are bad and should not be played by anyone at the best of times, but you can roll up coming from Khitai (which is not on the maps in this book) and thus speak Tsutsuneng (which is not the native language of any country on the maps in this book) and no other language. This is not the best of times. Again, this is admittedly likely, you are more likely to be from the northern parts of this map, but no guarantee that your campaign is set there.

I'd also note that characters who are literate (such as all Sorcerers and Warlocks) get to roll to see if they know any other dead languages, and are quite likely to have at least one. So the Sorcerers get to say they are better than Elementalists over and over, and most of them get to do so in more languages than Elementalists speak.

Now, of course you can ignore all these rules, and not in a Oberoni Fallacy way, because these are purely optional for when you can't come up with a background yourself. You could easily say you character lived in somewhere where the natives speak Elleslandic near the borders of somewhere else where they speak Visic (or vice versa), looking at the map there's a few options for that, and some of them are specifically mentioned in the tables as possibilities for certain professions anyway. Done, skip all this random table rubbish.

Speaking of random things best skipped, if you are an Assassin from either the Harbinger or Marijah organisation, you've gone rogue to become an adventurer and you get extra experience points at the beginning, but have a small chance of some other Assassins after you, that level up with you and have a chance each month of finding you. Rogue Assassins being hunted by members of their former organisations is all very well and good, but it's totally random if this happens or not. This seems like something better left to the GM's discretion.

OTOH, there's some nice content in here. Can't very well roll up a character whose parents were charcoal burners without some explanation of who charcoal burners are, so there's (brief) descriptions of various social roles and classes. Presumably, again, for Albion, or maybe just Southern Albion because things are different there, but maybe it applies to some places on the mainland as well. Or maybe not. Could have taken that and stuck it in a chapter on "society" or something, and specified where, left the random background tables somewhere else, but still, some good bits here.
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Chapter Eight, Going Places is about going places. Mostly going places by ship, there's some general advice on running travel, dealing with long journeys and skipping through large amounts of time, but almost no new rules about land travel.

There's two types of ships, with three sizes each and lots of rules for sea travel and weather and storms and things. Looks fairly solid, though there's rules for what happens to your ship once it takes certain amounts of damage. Fair enough, only that applies once it takes certain set amount of ship point damage, and it's the same for all ships. Would have been better to have them as fractions of your total, because some smaller ships will be sunk before they get the effects of being badly damaged. Also of note is the cost for buying the ships, in that there's nothing else anywhere near that expensive you can really buy, so long before you can afford ships you've bought more or less everything else you're going to be able to and the extra hundred or thousand silver coins is just filler.

There's two different random encounter tables, one for charted waters, and one for "hear be dragons" far from anywhere. Speaking of dragons, one of the options is "roll again". Ok, sure, it says "Sea monster", and then doesn't give stats for them, but says an average sea monster would be like a dragon, so re-roll and hope for something appropriate for any level you are likely to be playing (assuming you started at 1). I sorta like how ghouls are only found near Ta'ashim lands, because ghouls were Arabic monsters and Ta'ashim is Legend's version of Islam and close enough I guess, so you that's something you might want to region like. I sorta don't how how ghouls aren't found away from Ta'ashim lands because ghouls are cool monsters and something you might not want to region lock. Possibly have ghouls as a localised version of revenants or something? Almost all encounters aren't region specific, though.

There's also some examples of weird encounters you might want to come up with if you are bored with rolling random encounters and then re-rolling them because they aren't want you want. Like a lot in this book not really developed, but some nice starting off ideas.


Chapter Nine, Masters of Swords and Sorcery is about Warlocks. Last book, I said the Elementalists weren't as good as the Sorcerers, because they are worse than Sorcerers at being Sorcerers while basically trying to be much the same as Sorcerers, which makes comparing them nicely easy. Warlocks are part-time Sorcerers and part-time Knights, so it's not quite so immediately obvious if they are better or worse. I like how it's explicitly stated that they don't have time to devote to training with weapons like Knights do (being part timers), so at 3rd Rank they have to pick 2 Weapon Groups to focus on and get penalties to all others. Penalties that make a 3rd Rank Warlock have the same Attack and Defence as they did at 1st Rank when using the wrong weapon, so going up a Rank to 3rd reduces your stats for most weapons, which seems odd. Also, some of the groups seem a bit strange, you've got Thrown Daggers in the same one as Thrown Rock (etc), which is the same as throwing Javelins. Ok, throwing stuff, could argue that Javelin throwing and Dagger throwing aren't the same, but it's defensible. But also included in that one are Slings and Crossbows. Using a Bow is covered by another group which isn't really a group because it's only got Bow in it.

Compared to Sorcerers, Warlocks get less spells, 5 per Rank, rather than 6. More than the Elementalists get, though oddly they only get spells up to Level 9, not 10, so a hypothetically 10th Rank Elementalist (with legitimately good 10th Level Elementalist spells) gets the last laugh. They look roughly comparable to Sorcerer spells, though there's a few things here and there while look a bit too powerful (the 3rd Level Warlock indirect attack spell is slightly better than the 5th Level Sorcerer indirect attack spell). They both get their first "save or die" or equivalent at Rank 6. Their main magical limitation is that they only get 2 MPs per rank, less than Sorcerers (who get 4) or Elementalists (who get 3, 1 and 1, if the Elementalists have their special equipment). Oddly, it doesn't say "2 per rank", there's a little table that goes all the way up to 10th Rank and then says "etc". We can multiply by 2. Each level has a buff spell, and Warlocks can cast two of those as one action, I guess to make them seem a bit different to Sorcerers. Their spells also expire faster than Sorcerers, I guess for the same reason, likewise they regain their MPs at sunset not midnight. That's taking it from "be different" to "bad idea" there, though every caster gets their magic back at different times for reasons of being different/bad ideas.

Compared to Knights, Warlocks are about a level behind in combat ability, though the Weapon Groups reduce that further (if you are using the wrong weapons, which you probably aren't). Oddly, the book doesn't say which stats increase when you go up a Rank, there's just a list of the stats for average Warlocks of Ranks 1-12 and a note that people who aren't average modify those normally. Book 1 said that only Knights or Barbarians can ride Warhorses, doesn't say anything about riding them here, don't know if that was an oversight or if they aren't intended to. Like Knights, Warlocks can use any type of armour without it affecting their combat stats, though they start off with Chainmail, not Plate. So something to save up for/loot from the first dead Knight who has the starting equipment of a Knight, not the Chainmail the ones in the scenarios tend to. They also start with a Bow, and can have Sword and Shield or Two-Handed Sword (or Spear, which you wont want), somewhat different to Knight starting equipment. Don't know if there's any particular reason for this.

Warlocks get various special abilities when they reach 8th Rank or higher like everyone else who didn't choose to be an Elementalist. For example, if one of the two Weapon Groups the Warlock has is the one that contains Cudgels and Unarmed Combat, than they can pick the Unarmed Combat skill, which is the same as the one all Assassins get - unarmed attacks are (d6,3). How awesome is that? Given that you have to be at least 8th Rank, so you'll have at least 16 Magic Points to attack people with, and given that you've only got 2 Weapon Groups and you had to pick the Cudgel and Unarmed one for be able to get this and given that that's only as good as a Staff and everyone can get better weapons as part of their starting equipment, including random non-adventurer humans you hire at the local inn, you might want to answer "not very awesome at all". There's 3 other skills you might want to use that are mostly "meh" and the other skills deals with making magic arms and armour which takes quite a while so you might not want to bother.

As well as Minor Enchanting that gives you the usual +1, +2, +3 stuff (you have to take the skill separately for arms and for armour and you have to take it twice to get +2 and thrice for +3), once you've gotten +3 at arms or armour you can take Major Enchanting to allow you to make some extra fancy stuff, 3 times for each. The rules for making these weapons say that you can only make each of the three once in your lifetime, the rules for making the armour say you have to take the skill once for each type of extra fancy armour you want to make (and there's a 1% chance of it being flawed). Don't know if arms and armour were intended to have different rules there, or if it was an editing error.

As an aside, you can only make the extra fancy weapons in the form of magic Swords (including Two-Handed Swords and Shortswords, the latter you won't want to make), and the types of magic Swords you can make are all taken from a list of Rune Blades that Dave Morris previously wrote for Runequest and published in White Dwarf 39, March 1983. As an aside to the aside, he says that "most" of them ended up in Dragon Warriors, but there's 12 of those and 3 in this book, so possibly there's some others in some unpublished material, or possibly he's remembering wrong.

As a third aside, one of the Rune Blades that didn't make it to Dragon Warriors is the Vorpal Blade (called the Vorpal Sword in its description). Why is "Vorpal Sword/Blade" the only thing from Jabberwocky that seems to get commonly used in games (beyond the Jabberwock itself). Why can't you have a Vorpal Axe, or for that matter a Frumious Bat or take being extra Beamish as a skill? All of those seem frabjous to me.

There's a big problem with Warlocks, or rather with Knights and Barbarians now you have Warlocks. If you want to play a magician, you've now got 4 to pick from (the Assassin is verging a bit on a 5th, but doesn't get spells as such). You won't want to be an Elementalist, and I've always thought the Mystic was too random, others may disagree. But putting those aside, do you want to sacrifice a lot of a Sorcerers MPs and lose some magic stats to get some Knight stats? You may or may not want that, either choice makes sense, both Sorcerers and Warlocks seem viable. But if you want to play a fighter, you've now got 3 to pick (again, excluding the Assassin), 2 of which are very similar, and the 3rd is basically a Rank behind on combat stats and gets half Sorcerer Ranks as well. Anything a Knight can do, a Warlock can do almost as well, plus a bunch of other stuff the Knight cannot, of the things a Warlock can do, the Knight can do "being a Knight" a little better and not anything else.

Not sure how this could have been avoided. Warlocks have 1 less Attack and Defence than Knights, starting at 12 and 6 respectively. This is also what Mystics start with, because another point less and they'd have the same as Sorcerers/normal Humans. Warlocks need to have less than Knights, but probably should have more than random peasants and there just aren't many integers between 13 and 11. The Weapon Groups rules reduces this (coming in at Rank 3 means they don't drop below random peasant stats as Rank 1 is better, but only just), but only when they aren't using their normal weapons, which would happens sometime between "hardly ever" and "never", excepting if they have to swap groups when they pick up something magic. Maybe limiting them only to Chainmail armour, or not going up in Attack and Defense every round, but every 2nd like Mystics do? Give them the Elementalist spell list instead of their own? You need to do something, because getting decent magic in exchange for marginally worse combat stats is a bargain.

Speaking of bargains, the idea of people bargaining for magic powers, oathbreaking and other sorts of things associated with the word "Warlock" would tend to fit the Dragon Warriors theme and setting very well, but disappointingly doesn't come up at all. Presumably Morris chose the name "Warlock" because it happened to sound cool, though maybe he didn't want PCs doing dodgy deals with demons or something. He was very big on keeping his stuff family friendly, totally opposed to grimdark edgelordy stuff we see nowdays. Shame, because putting some darkness in, maybe some nasty side-effects of their magic like Darkness Elementalists have could have helped the balance issue. Or at least perhaps made them de facto NPC only, which is sorta a solution. In any case, there's obvious possibilities for NPCs there. Elven Knights are more or less the same as Human Knights, giving them Warlocks instead would make them stand out a bit, renegade evil Knights who can't quite beat proper PC Knights in a fair fight but who've got dark powers to make them a threat...Morris has missed a trick here.
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Post by amethal »

I seem to remember the warlock has very stringent ability score requirements, so stringent that my brother actually wrote a simple dice rolling progam to generate his character for him.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Warlocks need at least 11 Intelligence and at least 9 Psychic Talent. Higher than the Sorcerer (or Elementalist), who needs 9 for each, and the Mystic, who needs 9 for Psychic Talent and doesn't require Intelligence. So, more restrictions than the other magical types, but not by that much.

Assassins requires at least 12 for Reflexes and at least 9 for Intelligence and Psychic Talent.

Now, it is just a flat 3d6 for each, so you could easily fall short of getting the scores you want, but it's not unlikely you won't either.
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Post by amethal »

Thaluikhain wrote:Warlocks need at least 11 Intelligence and at least 9 Psychic Talent. Higher than the Sorcerer (or Elementalist), who needs 9 for each, and the Mystic, who needs 9 for Psychic Talent and doesn't require Intelligence. So, more restrictions than the other magical types, but not by that much.

Assassins requires at least 12 for Reflexes and at least 9 for Intelligence and Psychic Talent.

Now, it is just a flat 3d6 for each, so you could easily fall short of getting the scores you want, but it's not unlikely you won't either.
Thanks, its amazing how many of my 80s gaming memories never actually happened! (Or at least not as I remember it.)
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Chapter 10, Mungoda Gold is a scenario, based around going to Mungoda and looking for gold. I do like a nicely descriptive name. It's for a party of Rank 6-8, starting either in Venice Ferromaine or somewhere nearby, half a continent (and the odd Rank) away from the previous scenarios set in Britain Ellesland. I guess it's cosmopolitan enough that you don't need to worry about the language issues there.

Anyway, you are hired by a merchant to protect him as he sails to Mungoda (sorta South America squished into Africa, only Africa is also there to the east) and trade with the locals who've gotten some fancy gold stuff from somewhere or other. There's some nice intrigue in that the Knights in Ferromaine are very much involved with the local economy and would greatly prefer not to have large amounts of gold to be dumped on the market all of a sudden, whilst preparing to go all conquistador and get the lot for themselves. You might ask how much gold it'd take to make a difference, as Ferromaine is a trade centre and people are bringing in money all the time anyway. The answer would be that it's another one of those nice backstories Morris has written that nobody other than the GM will ever know about anyway, so that sort of thing doesn't actually matter. Oh well. The Knights have planted an Assassin on the ship posing as a crewman, but he's not likely to explain everything during a confrontation with the PCs unless the GM has been watching way too many British detective shows.

En route to Mungoda, you do run into a big ship full of Knights, only they are totally unrelated to all that, and are just on the way to the Crusades. So...that's nice? Barring the PCs getting bored with this adventure and going to join the Crusades instead, this is just filler.

Next, they run into another ship, this time full of pirates from Erewon, with a picture by Russ Nicholson.
Image

Lucky for the Duke of Erewon a few books back that these guys are pirates, not adventurers, as they'd do a lot better at overthrowing his reign of evil than 4-6 1-2 Rank PCs. They use quite a bit of magic in attacking the merchant's ship, and also a catapult. There's rules for magic, some things are a bit vague, but I guess you could make up how long it takes an Air Elemental to find some nice treasure and take it back to the pirates. However, Morris has totally neglected the rules for the catapult. Oops. I do like how you don't have to kill them all, they don't want to risk themselves too much, they are in it for loot, not PC killing. OTOH, the pirates include 3 Warlocks rather higher Ranked (one Rank 13, two Rank 11) than the PCs (higher than the PCS are likely ever to get if playing fairly, one higher than Morris gives average stats for), and they are high enough rank to throw insta-kill spells around.

I thought I'd play through that encounter, see how difficult it was, taking average adventurers of the appropriate rank (with basic equipment, though, none of the weird magic stuff they'd likely have by then) and see how they go. So, one average Knight, Barbarian, Sorcerer and Mystic of Rank 6. All dead partway through round 2. Admittedly, the scenario is for 4-6 6-8 Rank PCS, and I've gone for 4 6th Ranked ones with no magic gear, and the Warlocks have used some magic points getting on board the merchant ship, but they still have enough MPs for 4 instakill spells (and change), any of them who doesn't get instakilled first is likely to kill a PC. First combat encounter, and the PCs should expect things to go badly for them. Even if nobody gets instakilled (or there are people on both sides left after the instakilling is done), a 13th or 11th Rank Warlock (and these ones are above average) is still about as good as a 12th or 10th Rank Knight. Published DW scenarios keep doing this.

Assuming you sit back and let the pirates nick some stuff and go away, the third encounter is a random high Rank GMPC wizard who invites the PCs to lunch and raises one dead person. If no PCs are dead, the GM needs the Assassin to kill the merchant so there's someone to raise. I guess random crewmembers don't count? Anyway, the wizard gives you some random magic stuff and sends you off again. So, unless a PC was dead and needed raising, more filler.

Then on to Mungoda. And it begins with:
All too often, players fondly imagine that their characters can get away with flaunting the rules of common sense. Just because DRAGON WARRIORS is a fantasy game, however, there is no reason to be unrealistic.
Yeah...I can see what he's going for there, but he could have put it a lot better than that. Anyway, the first way realism pops up is that being hot and tropical, you can't wear full armour, you have to strip down a bit, losing some Armour Factor and some magical bonuses if any. No mention of whether wearing less armour affects your Stealth or combat stats, I'm guessing it's intended not to. Fair enough...only it affects some Professions (those that wear heavy armour, such as Knights, Warlocks and to an extent Barbarians) much more than others. And I got the impression that Chainmail was a one piece thing so can't really be stripped down.

Realism also strikes via rules for four different tropical diseases. To which I am going to say "Argh, no!", everything about this is bad. Firstly, the chance of getting a disease depends on your Rank, with modifiers based on your Profession (for everyone who isn't a Sorcerer or Elementalist, I guess they are the default?) and whether or not you are wearing armour. The rules for Rank are notable in that they give the chances for Unranked to Rank 3, 4-6, 8-9 and 10+ which seems a little odd. Firstly, because the PCs are supposed to be Ranks 6-8 and so most of that doesn't apply (unless you roll to see if the NPCs die before you meet them or something) and secondly because there is no 7 in there.

Because you're a foreigner, you have little resistance to these diseases (unless you are a Barbarian that came from here, in which case you do, but there's no rules for this). You have to roll to see if you recover, and the modifiers for this include spells that have "totally cures all disease" in the description. One might think that such spells should have a very large modifier, possibly even big enough to make actually rolling superfluous, because of the "totally cure" part, but no. Because otherwise the Sorcerer would allow you to skip roleplaying one PC being stuck with a serious disease and missing the adventure while the healthy PCs get to play the game.

Anyway, supposing you aren't all killed by disease the merchant meets with his friendly local, who pretends to be a ethnic stereotype as a bargaining tool. There's a rival local who wants in on all this, and he's talking to people on another ship from Khitai who also want to get hold of all this gold. Their wizard has a long backstory players aren't likely to hear about, cause Morris likes that sort of thing.

Anyhoo, the friendly local is a bit less friendly cause he's worked out that while he doesn't think much of gold other people do and he should get a much better price, specifically that some high Ranked adventurer types go chase away a hostile tribe that has recently started making a nuisance of itself after wandering in from another scenario that Oliver Johnson wrote for Basic Dungeons and Dragons (published in White Dwarf 55, July 1984) that Morris took some ideas from. When they reach the other tribe, they find that they've camped in front of an Egyptian Kaikuhuran pyramid full of treasure, the source of the locals' gold. The people from Khitai are also there trying to reach a bargain with them for the gold, but it's about to turn ugly, with a big combat full of high Ranked people and lots of mooks that, possibly 3 sided, and the DW rules almost certainly won't work very well at all.

Assuming you win and explore the pyramid (possibly with the assistance of people from Khitai if you play nice), it's full of gold stuff you can steal. If you want to go through the tunnel to the central chamber, a magic thingy weakens you, reducing you to 1 MP if you have MPs or taking off half your starting HP if you don't by the time you reach the door. The book says that a player could cast a durational spell, walking down the tunnel and dispel it, getting half the MP from casting it back. I say that as all casters get their magic back at specific times of the day, they wait till just before then before walking down the tunnel. As all casters get their magic back at different times, there may be arguments over when to do this, though. The magic thingy taking away MPs might have been intended to balance casters and fighters, previously Morris has said that casters initially have the advantage but run out of resources faster than fighters, and if you rest up between the big battle and the end boss it'd be a matter of how many instakill spells you cast until one goes through while the fighters stand in its way and totally fail to injure it enough to make a difference before it dies. Taking away almost all the casters' MPs and half of the fighters' HPs seem a reasonable way to simulate a grueling dungeon crawl, I guess. In any case, you then fight a (rather tough) guardian demon.

Wondering exactly how tough, I resurrected those 4 6th Rank adventures and threw them at the monster after being drained by the tunnel. They lasted 6 rounds, in that I somehow managed to roll critical misses for the Demon two turns in a row, each other round someone died. Fighters on half health due to magic thingy don't have more HP than the Demon takes away in one hit, but strong poison killed everyone anyway. And I now realise I've forgotten that people's armour factor is reduced due to being stripped down, but that didn't actually make any different. Again, the scenario is for 4-6 6-8 Rank PCS, and I've gone for 4 6th Ranked ones with no magic gear, and they might have joined forces with the people from Khitai, but even so. Now, if they'd used my trick of entering just after they've got their MPs back (or maybe used some potions or something to recover MPs) and could cast instakills, it's just a matter of what PCs it kills in one hit before it fails to resist one spell. Not a particularly fun encounter either way.

Assuming you win, you get lots of gold, the end. No magic stuff you'd actually want, just lots of stuff you can exchange for coins you don't need when you are this high Ranked.

This scenario is not great. I'd not say it was bad...well, except that the first fight is too hard, the second mightn't be too hard but would take forever to roll for to find out (or, you know, to actually play) and the third and last is an afterthought and also too hard. And the disease rules are just bad. And it also doesn't seem to have much in the way of Dragon Warrior's usual themes, there's nothing much going bump in the dark, no fay magic or untamed nature and while there is some murky politics, the characters won't know about it. I suspect deadlines might have been creeping up on Morris again and he didn't have time to put much in the way of substance in. I'd not be at all surprised if I've playtested it more than he did, having done two of the encounters once each.

I want to like it, I want to say something like "Sure, you'd have to redo all the parts with the rules, and then come up with a better story, but apart from that..." but no. I am again disappointed.
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Appendix 1 is about how you can send a stamped, self addressed envelope to GW to get a catalogue for dice and stuff, and you should consider buying some games magazine cause they are full of good stuff. White Dwarf, for example, although he mentions that is focuses on Games Workshops products a bit, which is mildly amusing in retrospect. As an aside, Morris wrote for WD a lot. So much that he had to keep inventing pseudonyms so it's not his name on everything all the time.

Appendix 2 is about how you can set your campaign in places other than his setting of Legend, such as Feudal Japan, pre-Columbian Mexico and Roman Britain, giving some brief advice about how to fit things in there (Knights can become Samurai in Japan, Eagle Warriors in Mexico, Legionairres in Britain, for example), and mentions that it'd be useful to research the period in some depth. Oddly, I did think of that last point myself. He also lists some fiction and non-fiction books that'd help.

He also mentions some modern fantasy writers who've created worlds you might want to use, Tolkien, Robert E. Howard, Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber. Not sure how many people who'd want to play Dragon Warriors, but not in the usual setting, would not have thought of those. Also not totally sure how you'd use Dragon Warriors rules for, say, LotR, given that 4 of the 7 Professions are casters totally unlike anything Tolkien included, and 1 of the remaining 3 is basically a ninja. Not saying you couldn't do it, but the rules you've got don't start off as a close match.

And he also says you can make your own world, that's totally a thing that you can do. Eh, well, these two appendices are 5 pages in total, so not wasted too much paper, I guess?

And that's the book. Bit of a mixed bag, some good stuff, some not so good stuff. I still think the main problem is that it's trying to cover too much, and so ends up doing so too thinly. Admittedly, this was a design choice, leaving people plenty of blanks to fill in but giving a general overview, but, IMHO, the wrong move. Should have stuck to Ellesland and developed a small place in much greater detail. Most of the detail there was (about law courts and seasons, say) seemed to be centred there as it was.

I also think it could have done with a bit more time, seems a bit rushed and could have done with a little bit more editing. Deadlines were apparently always a problem, and looks like they struck again here.



As well as being the book, that's also the series.

Looking back, well, the series wasn't as good as I remembered it being, but that's because it's it's got bad bits and flaws, not because it's overall bad. There's a lot to like.

Now, people tend to talk about the Dragon Warriors setting, rather than the Dragon Warriors rules when remembering it fondly. Morris and Johnson's idea of Dragon Warriors was Medieval Europe, as viewed by Medieval Europeans and distorted somewhat. Magic is supposed to be a reflection of aspects of the human psyche, not a weird form of science. It's rare, and refuses easy categorisation.

Now, I said "Morris and Johnson's idea of Dragon Warriors", because Morris has said he's fine with people playing the game different ways, and he did stick elves and dwarfs and halfling options for PCs in the first book for the crowd who want to buy things as close to Fighting Fantasy as possible. According to him, it probably won't work well and that sort of thing isn't fun anyway, but he's against authors getting in the way of people playing their games their way. For that matter, see Appendix 2 above.

As an aside, my own view of Dragon Warriors is somewhat different than Morris's, in regards to magic being rare. I honestly had no idea that was supposed to be a thing until I started reading Morris's blog. The books are full of magic, every scenario has magic to fight and to magic treasure to win, and you're going to have more than one magic user in your party. Possibly magic is rare for everyone who isn't super special like you, or possibly that's a case of making the game people want clashing with the game you want to make. Having said that, in the scenarios it's not so much the magic driving things, magic is either a tool or an obstacle to humans doing human things at each other.

Speaking of scenarios, I'd only be half-joking to say my view of Dragon Warriors is also about rolling up a new character every other game, cause they are hard, and full of instakills. Even in the examples of play in book one, someone's character falls through a trapdoor and dies between examples. Likewise, more than a few monsters have instakill effects, and this includes Sorcerors and Warlocks once they hit Rank 6 or so.

The rules for Dragon Warriors...well, I first came across them when I was young and easily influenced, so I'm biased, but I still think there are things to like, though a number of things could be better. Very rules light, and could do with more explanations of...everything, you are likely to need a lot of house rules (and I'm guessing Morris had a lot he forgot to include). There's a little bit of that thing where you awkwardly tack on more rules later on, rather than having them all work smoothly from the get go. But mostly it looks good enough, faint praise that that is.

I'd also mention, that when speaking of DW's flaws and failings, that can't be blamed on Morris's attitude. He seems to (still) have a genuine passion for the project, and there's no edgelordy stuff or neo-nazi stuff or weird sexual perversion stuff or shovelware sell out stuff. Which, again, faint praise, but compared to a lot out there nowdays...
Thaluikhain
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Book 7 and beyond: There were plans for books 7-9, or maybe even 7-12, but they never eventuated. Apparently DW just didn't sell enough to make it worthwhile. Part of that might have been due to distribution, selling Book 1 in the south of England and Book 2 in the north seems an odd move. In any case, some work went into what they would have been before it was apparent they'd not get made, so there's some information (somewhat contradictory) about what they would be. Possibly Book 7 would have featured Brymstone, which as I've mentioned previously, was a town for a campaign that Robert Dale had done pre-Dragon Warriors that featured in the map of Ellesland.
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This map was intended to guide Geoff Wingate in making a nicer looking picture, but as that didn't happen this is what we have.

The other thing that would appeared in later books is "Invaders and Ancients". Which was originally intended as a supplement for Questworld, GW's Runequest spin-off. So it didn't happen twice. A few years ago, Morris talked about getting it going again (having found decades old notes about it covered with dust at the back of his wife's closet), but nothing much since then, so it looks like it might not happen again for the third time.

The premise was/would be that, slightly before the turn of the millenium, a group of people sail west away from the parts of Legend described in this book, fleeing the end of the world (presumably the events from the Bloodsword books didn't quite go well, or maybe it was the Millenium Bug). They arrive on a distant continent (possibly after generations of travel, possibly being magically transported to another world or possibly not) and run into an ancient civilisation that is secure enough that conquistador stuff doesn't happen. I guess the existing locals just didn't care about the places near the coast and let them build their cities there.

Some centuries later, you've got the Invaders in their city of Deliverance and the Ancients a bit further inland, and neither really understand the other. The Ancients also have a non-human slave race, which they control by partially castrating the Alpha males or something. Fingers crossed that Morris was intending to do all the colonialism and slavery stuff in a not terrible way.
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Russ Nicholson did some artwork before the project got cancelled
I can't really say much of anything about these books, as they don't exist. I'm somewhat sorry that they didn't get made, and my collection is 6 books, rather than 9 or 12. OTOH, the "Invaders and Ancients" stuff seems like it'd be a soft reboot of the previous Dragon Warriors stuff, much of the existing books would be totally irrelevant, and it'd be a completely different theme and feel. The weird fantasy version of Europeans settling America/Australia doesn't need everything from the weird fantasy setting back in Europe and the rules system might have gotten a total overhaul as well.
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