OSSR: Frostburn

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Ancient History
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OSSR: Frostburn

Post by Ancient History »

OSSR: Dungeons & Dragons

Frostburn

Mastering the Perils of Ice and Snow

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Frost giants versus knights riding fucking moosicorns. Fuck yes!
AncientH

Dungeons & Dragons 3rd edition, more than anything else, attempted unify the core game mechanic to the point where you could easily - almost systematically - generate content, and then worked to capitalize by generating said content. Because basically anybody could generate that content, that meant that for the official products to sell, the content needed to be better.

Often, it wasn't. It was more official than better. But Wizards of the Coast still set the terms and the rules of the game. They started out by expanding player space in terms of classes (from Sword & Fist through to the Complete books), and races (Races of Stone, &c.), but then they hit on the idea of focusing on where you were going adventuring instead of necessarily who was going adventuring.

Let's be honest, this is really weird territory for D&D. 3rd edition had no default setting, aside from some very slight nods to Greyhawk. It was trying to be a generic fantasy system, but none of the pieces were supposed to be specific to any given world. As a result, it's more like a half-assed class-based broken version of GURPS than it is something like Earthdawn.

So, Frostburn is nominally the book that covers going out where it's cold. Ithaqua weather. Boots and mittens.
Frank

Dungeons & Dragons is the original elf game. You play as your character, and your character can be anything you can imagine, so long as you imagine a Dwarf Cleric named Carlos. So expanding Dungeons & Dragons has always been a bit of a contradiction. Players can already do whatever they want in the game, but at the same time they have to play a Dwarf Cleric named Carlos. What do you get for the guy who has everything? Or rather, what do you get for the guy who could have had anything, but genuinely actually has a Dwarf Cleric named Carlos?

In most editions the answer has been to pick some aspect of character generation and double down on new options for players who go that route. The Complete Book of Dwarves has more stuff if your character is a Dwarf. Defenders of the Faith has more stuff if your character is a Cleric. They never did the Carlonomicon to add more options for characters named Carlos, but they were sorely tempted. In 4th edition, that was going to be considered a core rulebook before it got yanked from the release schedule.

A big problem with these kinds of expansion books of course is that they don't appeal to the whole market. What if you're playing an Elf in your elf game instead of a Dwarf? Would you still care about reading Races of Stone? What if you're playing a Ranger in your elf game? Would you still care about reading Divine Power? There are few characters who are multinamed in such a way that they can benefit from the material in both the Carlonomicon and Open Mike. I don't have access to sales figures from 3rd edition, but they did mention once how many copies of various things got sold back in the nineties and the dropoff between a book of general interest like the Player's Handbook and a book that was of more restricted utility such as the Complete Book of Halflings and Gnomes was pretty severe. And yet, if you made all your expansion books truly general, how the everliving fuck would you find anything? Books still have to have themes and hooks to get people to read them in the first place and to remember their contents.

Right about the end of 3rd edition, someone came up with the idea of expansion books tied to adventuring idiom rather than to character generation selections. Specifically a book about things being cold. So there's material for Elves and Dwarves; there's material for Warriors and Wizards; there's material for characters named Carlos or Susan. There's even stuff for Mister Cavern like monsters and traps. But it's all ice themed. Like ice ages or Vikings or the White Witch has come to town, fucking whatever. It's cold outside, and it's time to do some adventuring.
AncientH

The first fucking problem you have with this book is that it deals with a problem that D&D has traditionally been bad at: survival.

Surviving in different environments can be relatively difficult and is quite honestly largely a lost set of skills for 99% of the D&D audience. You may have been camping, but you probably didn't start a fire with flint & steel, you likely didn't hunt down game with melee weapons, and odds are you had some kind of portable shelter with you and some kind of conveyance to take you to and from the "wilderness." Humanity has spent a good bit of time trying to get away from guessing which berry is edible and which will have you rushing for the bushes every twenty minutes as you slowly die from dehydration.

Which is why in D&D 3.x, Survival is...a skill. Like, a singular skill. You don't even need to roll individually, you have one person with the highest Survival skill and get them to roll for the group and trust to the Dice Gods that some of you make it through the wilderness to wherever you are going.

Survival in D&D is almost inherently a points-of-light thing. Or something Mister Cavern conveniently ignores because he needs the group to get from point A to point B without dying because they drank from a stagnant pool along the way.

This is usually the point that the simulationists come in and demand things be more realistic, that survival should be more of a challenge, to reward those players who properly prepare their characters as though this were a contest of wits and skill rather than the roll of the dice. Weather tables start getting written. Pitons are added to equipment lists.

Now you're not playing Dungeons & Dragons anymore. You're playing fucking Dungeon Scouts.
Frank

Frostburn came out almost a year after the release of the 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons revision, and I'm pretty sure that means the book was stuck in development hell for a bit over a year because of that revision. Frostburn calls out all the books it references, and they are all pre-revision 3rd edition books. It even calls out the writers of the “new edition” and it's the authors of the 3rd edition Player's Handbook, not the chucklefucks who rewrote it for 3.5. Frostburn has been “updated” to the 3.5 revision rules according to the title page, but there's definitely something 3rd editiony about a lot of the writing. And I in no way am saying that as a bad thing. Still, this book is monstrous compared to other 3rd edition sourcebooks. It's 224 pages long, and only a small amount of that can be blamed on the general text bloat caused by adapting 3.5 D&D text block standards.

How long was this book kept in development hell? At least a year, but probably more than that. Little things like referring to the edition of D&D that came out in 2000 as “new” suggest that at least one of the three main authors of this book were working on it for a long time before it went to print. Some of the texts kind of read like they were merged drafts that had been worked on with a lot of time between sessions. I'm pretty familiar with how text reads when that has happened. Since, you know, that's a thing I've done a bunch of times. In any case, the last referenced book came out in March of 2003, and that is 18 months before this book actually went to print.

Why was it in development hell for so long? Well, some of that was the simple daunting task of going through a 224 page document and replacing every mention of “Wilderness Lore” with “Survival.” I know that would make me want to kill myself. But honestly, I think it's pretty safe to surmise that it was mostly held up over inane arguments about trivial bullshit that you couldn't imagine giving a shit about even at the time. I talked to a bunch of the Wizards of the Coast guys in 2004, and holy shit did they have strange ideas about what was and was not important. They thought it was super important to compare every proposed 1st level spell to magic missile and of course Andy Collins made almost all of his changes to 3.5 in order that his Dwarf Fighter named Carlos would get more benefit from the Power Attack maneuver than an Elvish Ranger in his gaming group. I would be willing to bet real money that the book was held up for over a month over some nerd tantrum that even Frank Fucking Trollman couldn't summon the nerd cred to give two shits about either way.
AncientH

The bottom line is: lower your fucking expectations for this one. It was never going to be good. You could have scraped all the monsters and spells with the [cold] descriptor into a single document and hired a single GURPS writer to write some skein of connective tissue tying them all together and you would have gotten better than this.

And I say that mostly because of all the stuff you might expect in this book, only about half of it is actually in here. Seriously. You've got 11 basic classes in the core book. The bare minimum you would expect is that each of them get some icy love in this book, and it doesn't happen.

Introduction

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Frank

The introduction is only one page and it sets itself only two tasks. The first is to tell me what is in each of the seven chapters and appendix of this book, which it does tolerably OK. I now know that “Chapter 4: Equipment” has various arctic exploration gear in it. I might have guessed that based wholly on the title, but it's nice to have confirmation. The other thing it wants to do is to get me to buy in to the idea that we should call all distinctively cold adventuring locations “The Frostfell.” in the same way and to the same degree that sometimes we refer to subterranean adventuring locales collectively as “The Underdark..” That is a harder sell and this introduction doesn't manage it.

Sure, it tells me that they intend to use words this way, I'm just not going to do it. It's sixteen years later and I have never once referred to a white dragon's ice cave lair as “The Frostfell” and I think if I tried to do that that people would be really confused. I'm not sure that having a generic collective term for any adventuring location where your breath makes little clouds is necessary or even helpful, but if you decided that you did want such a term, “Frostfell” isn't great.

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Frostfell is also the in-world name of Christmas in Everquest, which is equally as bullshit.

A “fell” is an elevated land area that isn't covered in trees or sown with grain. That's just what the word means. A glacier covered mountain could well be frosty and a fell, and by the laws of unimaginative fantasy location names it could well be called “Frostfell.” But a frozen lake or a snow covered forest or an ice cave or whatever is not a fell. Calling it “Frostfell” is bullshit.
AncientH

Paragraph two is about where the book jumps its first shark.

See, this isn't normal survival. Oh no, we're going to be dealing with magical ice and snow and shit. The laws of fucking physics are right out the window my fucking friend, and your homedwarf Carlos had better pray his beard doesn't freeze right the fuck off. Because stranger things are known to happen. We aren't that far removed from the Paraelemental Plane of Ice. Which they decided to completely eliminate from this book, but which not everybody quite got the memo on.

So, there are no ice elementals in this book. That's not necessarily a bad thing; you don't need ice elementals just like you don't need plasma elementals or tombstone elementals or shadow elementals. But they also didn't eliminate all references to ice elementals in this book, so it's a bit of a wash. Do ice elementals exist in your 3.5 campaign? Fuck knows! They never updated Manual of the Planes. Your guess is as good as mine.

Chapter One: The Frostfell

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Surprisingly; no.
Frank

While nominally about this book's nutty idea that we should use specialist nomenclature for all cold adventuring locations, this chapter is actually like a miniature Dungeon Master's Guide with a special emphasis on winter. And honestly, it highlights pretty much everything good and bad about 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons. Let's put on an extra pair of socks and dive in.

The first thing we talk about is what makes things cold. Like, altitude, latitude, climate change, weather, and fucking magic. What's surprising here is that someone has actually done research here, and when they tell you that temperatures drop an average of 3.5 degrees Fahrenheit for every thousand feet of elevation, that is actually true. They don't bother telling you that this is roughly 6.5 degrees Celsius for every thousand meters, because it's an American book from the early 21st century and it is amazingly parochial about bullshit American measurements. But someone has genuinely researched these things and given real values that are accurate and functional.
AncientH

Keep in mind, those measurements assume that your fantasy game world is set on a spherical world orbiting the sun with an oxygen-rich atmosphere &c. &c. It doesn't apply if, say, you're on an ocean planet or a flat plane extending infinitely in all directions or on a disc on the back of a giant turtle. Some things have to be assumed, and D&D while nominally high fantasy is still pretty low fantasy in its general preconceptions that the world works basically how we are familiar with it working, based on our sum total experience on one planet where we sometimes have to shovel the walks in the winter.

But I digress.
Frank

I understand why many people in the 21st century talk about “winter” as a season that runs between the winter solstice and the vernal equinox. This is however wrong, and if you're actually writing a book about cold and magic and magic cold, you should fucking know that. The winter solstice is also called “mid winter's night” and it is the middle of the darkest days, not the beginning. Winter runs from Samhain to Imbolc, not from Yule to Ostara.

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By Yuletide, your forty days of night are half over.

But of course the real thing they are selling is the idea that you could end up in an area that was cold or dark or both due to the interaction of axial tilt and the progression of time. And they sell that idea nicely. Traveling into the land of forever frost is fucking awesome, and this book's discussion of seasons and latitudes and elevations and shit brings up a number of good ways to set up these kinds of adventures.
AncientH

The reasons why you would go here are pretty much left open, because it doesn't really fucking matter. This isn't about the why. It's like an Elflands book where you have to describe the fabulous treasures you can steal from the pointy-eared magic race, the pools of rainbow-slick unicorn piss you can bathe in to cure you leprosy or magical crotch rot or whatever. This is a book telling you about how to build a cold environment where the player characters are already set on going.

Why are you going to the Frostfell? Because that's where the goddamn adventure is.
Frank

The most impressive achievement of 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons was casual realism. If you went to the charts and figured out how much a character could drag or how long it took to chop down a door with an ax, you got numbers that were pretty OK. The game could take unexpected inputs and give you reasonable outputs. It didn't have divide by zero errors or wildly ridiculous numbers popping out.

And while the 3.5 Revision really dropped the ball on a lot of that in the pursuit of unbelievably petty grievances, Frostburn doesn't. We have expanded weather exposure tables and shit, and the times it takes for people to die of hypothermia are actually pretty realistic. I'm not sure that it's ever going to come up, because adventurers rarely find themselves naked in the snow unless they have also already been torn to pieces by an owlbear, but if you needed that kind of realism for whatever reason, this book delivers.

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Realism!

It's 27 pages, and most of it is about various details regarding falling through snow or getting frostbite or dealing with snow blindness or whatever. These environmental hazards are all rigorously and realistically modeled in the 3rd edition D&D rules, and the outputs seem to do what they are expected to do.
AncientH

Not that it mattered. Nobody ever used these goddamn things, and nor did they have any reasonable reason to do so. Maybe some of the planar attribute crap they stole from Manual of the Planes, but probably not even then. People don't like elemental survival RPGs, for all that they continue to be a depressingly common genre of adventure.

The problem is, one of the main conflicts is Man vs. Nature, and people get the idea in their heads that surviving blizzards and stuff is exciting and can add real drama to a game...but in D&D, you do not get XP for surviving an avalanche, much less avoiding setting one off in the first place.

Well, Snowflake Lichen are CR 3. Have fun with that.
Frank

Probably the most egregious failing of the 3rd edition D&D system is how things at higher level just stop making sense. The skill difficulty die rolls are only built for people who are 1st through 4th level. What are you going to do when it's mathematically impossible for the Ranger to fail a DC 18 Survival check? What are you gonna do when the Wizard just makes everyone magically immune to cold all fucking day?

This book doesn't have answers for that. There is some example magical frozen terrain features and some sample magic icy weather, and it doesn't mean shit at higher levels. Yes, if you don't have magical protection then if you go to the sky city of Ever Ice without protection from cold the lord of Chilblain is going to fucking give you Chilblains. And those are going to turn into frostbite and you're going to lose fingers and then your life. But who the fuck cares? By the time you're high enough level to care about a sky city made of ice none of that shit matters.

And on the flip side, the scope and size of high level bullshit just isn't there. Dire Winter makes an area of blizzard one thousand feet in radius. Which is less than four miles across and would take about two hours to simply walk around it. It lacks the scope and majesty you were probably expecting when the powerful wizard unleashed the Dire Winter at the end of his mighty ritual of vast power.

High level challenges just weren't math hammered the way low level challenges were. Never were. And in Frostburn, that is still extremely true.
AncientH

There is no thematic unity to coldness in D&D. It probably should have been. There could have been a little bit of flavor text where somebody talks about how the first gods warred against the frost titans, or placed the sun in the sky to melt the eternal ice, or in some way gave some sense that ice represents the final fucking entropy of the universe for about 90% of the inhabitants of the D&D setting.

We don't get that. You go somewhere cold, it snows. Wear a fucking jacket. That is the D&D 3.5 philosophy.
Frank

Some of the magical terrain is straight goofy, and I suspect some of it is padding stuffed in from other projects. Like, why are there columns of ice that shoot lightning bolts at passerbys like fucking Tesla Coils? Like seriously, why?
AncientH

Some of this crap looks straight AD&D-ish. Percentile tables for Everfrost Terrain features by category. Random patches of snow that casts dispel magic. Razor snow. Lists of poisons that include "Woolly Mammoth Eye Juice." Half of it could be placed, without change, in a Hackmaster supplement and nobody would know the difference.
Frank

The designers of 3rd edition were really into some pretty advanced math to calculate costs and shit. And while these mathematical actuary tables are internally consistent, and quite beautiful as math – they don't really produce good results. And nowhere is that more blatant than with poisons and traps. Those things cost way too much and their effects are incredibly underwhelming.

The poisons and traps here meticulously follow the official cost and effect guidelines, and because of that they are worthless. It wouldn't surprise me if getting all these numbers to fit with established protocol was the anal retentive nerd obsession that kept this book in development hell for so long. Like, would you like to pay fifty six pounds of gold for a deadfall trap that dumps 2 dice of damage worth of snow on people? No, obviously you would not. 56 pounds of gold is so much gold that you could just drop the coins on people and do similar damage. For fuck's sake!
AncientH

And if the coins are cold, in a frostfell region they could do cold damage too.

One of the great stupidities of D&D 3.5 is that the Earth/Air/Fire/Water elemental opposition axis was unwieldily married to a Cold/Fire/Acid/Sonic/Electricity "energy" damage axis which managed to please absolutely nobody and led to some every strange concepts. In this case, you get "coldfire" which is supposed to be "pure cold energy" which...burns you. With frostburn damage. Which, by the great logic of this book, is something you can drown in, even if you are otherwise immune to cold.
Frank

Terrain features and dungeon features fill out the end of the chapter. It's a bit rambly and is a bit like your nerdy younger cousin listing all the things they made in Minecraft, but it has pretty good coverage.

But as a winter wonderland themed version of the Dungeon Master's Guide, this hits all the high notes in only 27 pages. It gives you worldbuilding, it gives you some terrain features. It gives you some furniture to make your frost goblin Sims homes with. And it makes me want to tell stories about adventurers exploring an old castle or city that has been claimed by the ice and is now crawling with monsters. Like the old gold box video game Secret of the Silver Blades.
AncientH

Just for kicks, there is another type of magical coldfire called rimefire, which deals half cold and half fire damage. You might have expected rimefire to make an appearance in the next book in the series, which deals with it being too goddamned hot out, but in fact it is never mentioned anywhere ever again as far as I am aware. Because nobody cared.
Frank

Next up: Character Stuff.

This is where the book tries to sell itself to players rather than Dungeon Masters.
AncientH

Warning: There are no magical shovels in this book.
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The Adventurer's Almanac
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Hold on. Coldfire is pure cold energy that burns you, while rimefire is half cold and fire energy that doesn't burn you?
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Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

You know, the dangers of really cold and really hot weather seem a bit underwhelming when any Cleric, Druid and Wizard can cast Endure Elements starting at level 1.

The spell lasts 24 hours and protects you as long as conditions are between -50 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit.
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Post by Libertad »

Man vs the elements has always been a bit of an afterthought in Dungeons & Dragons, which is probably why we have so much "MAGICAL WEATHER" which is made deadlier than mundane rockslides, low temperatures, etc. When 1st-level spells like Endure Elements and Goodberry can obviate the dangers of starvation and exposure a lot of terrain ends up being more of a sightseeing thing or something which is a hindrance when random encounters pop up.

Another thing is that while there's a lot of D&D settings with ample desert environs: every hardcore gamer is aware of Dark Sun, and al-Qadim for Realmslorians and both have enough material for entire campaigns. But most of the polar and cold reaches in existing settings are...barren. They tend to either be uncharted wastelands which can be cool to venture in if any significant material's written for them. Eberron's Frostfell continent was an afterthought, while Greyhawk's Land of Black Ice is...a creepy ice place with hardly any pagecount. Dragonlance's Icereach has some detail, but much of that was made from a single adventure and didn't have the diversity of terrain and hooks its more detailed regions have.

Faerun might be a bit of an exception in regards to the Silver Marches and Icewind Dale, although I cannot recall if the latter video game ever got any big sourcebooks to its name in the WotC era.
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Post by Ancient History »

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:Hold on. Coldfire is pure cold energy that burns you, while rimefire is half cold and fire energy that doesn't burn you?
Coldfire deals frostburn damage, rimefire deals cold and fire damage that freezes and burns you at the same time. Take a drink.
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Post by Libertad »

This may be a bit of a double-post, but how much Nordic stuff is in Frostburn? That tends to be the most prominent "cold lands" based culture with which D&D designers and fans have any familiarity. Although I own the book I haven't cracked it open in a while and cannot really remember anything substantial in terms of any derived cultural lore.
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Re: OSSR: Frostburn

Post by Thaluikhain »

Ancient History wrote:They thought it was super important to compare every proposed 1st level spell to magic missile
Was that for balance reasons? Why is that such a bad idea?
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Re: OSSR: Frostburn

Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

Thaluikhain wrote:
Ancient History wrote:They thought it was super important to compare every proposed 1st level spell to magic missile
Was that for balance reasons? Why is that such a bad idea?
Because Magic Missile isn't a particularly powerful 1st level spell? And Silent Image, Sleep and Color Spray are all infinitely stronger?
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Re: OSSR: Frostburn

Post by Thaluikhain »

ColorBlindNinja61 wrote:
Thaluikhain wrote:
Ancient History wrote:They thought it was super important to compare every proposed 1st level spell to magic missile
Was that for balance reasons? Why is that such a bad idea?
Because Magic Missile isn't a particularly powerful 1st level spell? And Silent Image, Sleep and Color Spray are all infinitely stronger?
Ah, ok, that would explain that, thanks.
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Post by Username17 »

Back in 1st edition AD&D in 1979, magic missile was a much better spell. Monsters had a lot less hit points and magic missile itself was uncapped. A 13th level Magic User simply did 7 dice of damage, no save. And this was when a Troll only had 30 hit points, so most enemies could be finished off with two castings of magic missile by high level Magic Users.

Now 2nd edition instituted damage caps for evocation spells and then also every edition change came with hit point inflation for team monster. The monsters in the 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium have on average slightly more hit points than their 1st edition Monster Manual compatriots. And the changes from 2nd to 3rd and from 3rd to 3.5 are substantially more dramatic. By 3rd edition, our Troll has 63 hit points and magic missile is capped at 5 dice of damage.

So when Rich Redman went off on a rant about how anyone who made a spell that was better than magic missile had screwed up game design, I laughed in his face. And the real Twilight Zone thing was that he was genuinely confused as to why I had done that. 1st edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons hadn't been the current edition since 1989, and in 2004 he was still uncritically repeating truisms from that edition and in the intervening fifteen actual years he had not once been forced to question whether that benchmark was remotely relevant.

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Post by Ancient History »

Libertad wrote:This may be a bit of a double-post, but how much Nordic stuff is in Frostburn? That tends to be the most prominent "cold lands" based culture with which D&D designers and fans have any familiarity. Although I own the book I haven't cracked it open in a while and cannot really remember anything substantial in terms of any derived cultural lore.
Minimal. Mostly only relevant in art.
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Post by amethal »

Frank Trollman wrote:The other thing it wants to do is to get me to buy in to the idea that we should call all distinctively cold adventuring locations “The Frostfell.” in the same way and to the same degree that sometimes we refer to subterranean adventuring locales collectively as “The Underdark.”
Finally I've realised what they were going for with this. It's the whole "mythic underworld" thing D&D sometimes likes to have going.

Last session we travelled 400 miles and all that happened was the DM rolled a few dice to see if we'd have to slaughter some nameless bandits on the way. This session we're rolling Fortitude saves every 10 minutes, trying to remember how the non-lethal damage rules work, and worrying about getting lost. What's changed? This is the Frostfell, baby!
A “fell” is an elevated land area that isn't covered in trees or sown with grain. That's just what the word means. A glacier covered mountain could well be frosty and a fell, and by the laws of unimaginative fantasy location names it could well be called “Frostfell.” But a frozen lake or a snow covered forest or an ice cave or whatever is not a fell. Calling it “Frostfell” is bullshit.
Damn, we're gonna have to come up with another name.
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Post by amethal »

Libertad wrote:This may be a bit of a double-post, but how much Nordic stuff is in Frostburn? That tends to be the most prominent "cold lands" based culture with which D&D designers and fans have any familiarity. Although I own the book I haven't cracked it open in a while and cannot really remember anything substantial in terms of any derived cultural lore.
I can't remember any either.

Monkeygod's "Frost and Fur" came out around the same time as Frostburn (I think) and that had a lot more cultural stuff in it that appeared to be derived from real-world cultures (and a lot less laser-beam firing snow.)
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

A “fell” is an elevated land area that isn't covered in trees or sown with grain. That's just what the word means.
'Fell' has several meanings, and that's certainly one, but I think it's more likely being used here in the sense of 'fierce/cruel/dreadful/savage/destructive/deadly.'
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Post by Username17 »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
A “fell” is an elevated land area that isn't covered in trees or sown with grain. That's just what the word means.
'Fell' has several meanings, and that's certainly one, but I think it's more likely being used here in the sense of 'fierce/cruel/dreadful/savage/destructive/deadly.'
But in that sense 'fell' is an adjective, so it would be the "Fellfrost."

There are certainly people who write nd have written for D&D that love the word 'Fell' and don't use it correctly in sentences. Hence the existence of the Shadowfell in 4e. But we really honestly shouldn't encourage them.

A 'Fell Beast' is a bad beast, and the Cumbria Fells are a place, but that doesn't mean you can jam the word 'Fell' in at the end of a random word and make a place that is bad. Obviously some jokers in Seattle thought that is what words mean, but they were and are wrong about this.

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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I think it’s pretty strange that a guy who lives in England can get huffy about place names having an adjectival element for an ending. That country is dotted with place names which do exactly that. It was a thing in Old English (and Old Norse) to call a place ‘boar-rich’ or similar, and if you’re going for a particular kind of old-timey (and/or Nordic) feel it’s perfectly appropriate.

You also see that sort of thing when a place used to be called ‘the frostfell wastes’ or whatever, but common use discarded the non-distinctive element. The point is that the forces that make a place name appropriate and authentic aren’t hard, fast, or limited to common grammar.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

That's what I love about the Den. We all agree Frostfell is absolutely a stupid name for generically cold places, but we argue so much about WHY it's stupid.

My take - many different type of environments can be 'really cold'. While the Underdark may have different types of caves and tunnels, with a single word you know you're far below ground - everyone's on the same page about a dark cavern before you start adding descriptive elements. When you say Frostfell and it can be an open tundra plain, or the highest peak in the world, or a cave deep in the Underdark that surrounds a portal to the demiplane of ice, saying Frostfell doesn't provide ANY information. Saying 'an underdark cavern overgrown with a forest of glowing fungi' implies something about where that cavern is located (deep underground) and what is nearby (more caverns and tunnels deep underground), but Frostfell doesn't add any information. A Frostfell cavern overgrown with a forest of glowing fungi might imply cold, but the word 'freezing' could be substituted and you have as much or more information. The word Frostfell doesn't imply anything about whether this cave is hacked from a glacier, high on a mountain, in the Underdark, and therefore provides no indication of what might be nearby.
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

I think in order for Frostfell to have any real meaning, it needs to be a defined place like the Underdark is. It should be the no man's land at the edge of the map where people live in a frozen wasteland that has tons of cool shit in it so people actually want to go exploring there. The idea that it's just any place that gets really cold is totally retarded. I don't even have a problem with LOLMAGIC weather (and I'd like to hear why some people hate it so much) if that's what it takes to define where the Frostfell begins and ends.
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Post by RelentlessImp »

We aren't that far removed from the Paraelemental Plane of Ice.
You know, I always sort of liked the idea of fantasy worlds that have dangerous areas that are inimical to life because the elements are literally linked to otherworldly places that become coterminous with the physical plane when conditions are right and thus creatures from those otherworldly places emerge into our world. Like old tales of Sidhe emerging from mushroom rings/fairy circles, etc. Why didn't D&D ever really run with that in any of its settings? It wouldn't have been much worse than what we actually got in any published setting. (Okay, so Forgotten Realms did, I think, with the really deep places of the Underdark leading into the Plane of Shadow, but that's the only example I can think of in a published setting.)
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Post by Thaluikhain »

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:I think in order for Frostfell to have any real meaning, it needs to be a defined place like the Underdark is. It should be the no man's land at the edge of the map where people live in a frozen wasteland that has tons of cool shit in it so people actually want to go exploring there. The idea that it's just any place that gets really cold is totally retarded. I don't even have a problem with LOLMAGIC weather (and I'd like to hear why some people hate it so much) if that's what it takes to define where the Frostfell begins and ends.
I can understand why they went for any cold place, though, you can stick it in any setting, any mountain top and towards both poles. Of course, they could have given a bunch of examples of places you can stick in cold places or just fleshed out and made interesting the generic stuff. As it is, there's not much oomph to it.
RelentlessImp wrote:You know, I always sort of liked the idea of fantasy worlds that have dangerous areas that are inimical to life because the elements are literally linked to otherworldly places that become coterminous with the physical plane when conditions are right and thus creatures from those otherworldly places emerge into our world. Like old tales of Sidhe emerging from mushroom rings/fairy circles, etc. Why didn't D&D ever really run with that in any of its settings? It wouldn't have been much worse than what we actually got in any published setting. (Okay, so Forgotten Realms did, I think, with the really deep places of the Underdark leading into the Plane of Shadow, but that's the only example I can think of in a published setting.)
I think the Feywild at least sorta kinda hinted at that a bit, but I don't think it was much.
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Post by Emerald »

RelentlessImp wrote:You know, I always sort of liked the idea of fantasy worlds that have dangerous areas that are inimical to life because the elements are literally linked to otherworldly places that become coterminous with the physical plane when conditions are right and thus creatures from those otherworldly places emerge into our world. Like old tales of Sidhe emerging from mushroom rings/fairy circles, etc. Why didn't D&D ever really run with that in any of its settings? It wouldn't have been much worse than what we actually got in any published setting. (Okay, so Forgotten Realms did, I think, with the really deep places of the Underdark leading into the Plane of Shadow, but that's the only example I can think of in a published setting.)
A lot of settings do have something like that, actually. In addition to the deep Underdark having planar connections, FR has the elves and other fey coming from Faerie (long before 4e introduced the Feywild idea) and a series of "fey crossroads" acting like a cross between a Transitive Plane and a home for fey; Birthright has a thin boundary between the Daylight World and the Shadow World where creatures can slip through along ley lines and in similar areas of great magic; Eberron has manifest zones that link a certain area to a certain plain and let monsters and planar conditions bleed through, waxing and waning with the cycles of the moons; Planescape obviously is full of portals, rifts, bleeds, and other planar phenomena that helps get Material Plane-native PCs involved in adventures; and even Dark Sun has something like that, with natural refuges in remote areas being linked to the elemental and paraelemental planes.

I think it's just not particularly emphasized in the setting books, partly because pointing out "hey, here's this thing X in this setting that's just like Y in mythology and folk tales" is counterproductive to both giving settings their own feel and selling more splat books, partly because planar travel and lots of outsiders are usually reserved for higher-level adventures (outside of Planescape) so making portals to other planes too prominent can seem like a bad thing to setting writers.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I always thought it was a bit weird how D&D decided to lead with Frostburn and how it was also their best book. Desert settings and Sea settings are way more common in fantasy fiction and in D&D settings as well.

I think it might just be because lol Lord of the Rings.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Ancient History »

OSSR: Frostburn

Chapter 2: Races, Classes, and Feats

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This is every bit as dumb as it looks.

This chapter begins with “Life in the Frostfell” and since we can't stop hearing that as sung by The Eagles, we will now make the background music for this chapter Life in the Frostfell. You're welcome.
AncientH

Just to make it perfectly clear: there is no fluff whatsoever in this book. This isn't about describing what the frostfell is or the experience of being there in terms of fiction. It's almost an anti-World of Darkness project in that respect. There is zero effort to try and work this into the world because...there is no world. So even when they spend a page talking about life in the frostfell, it's from an OOC perspective where you casually throw around ideas of surviving by use of endure elements, resist energy, and create food and water.

Which, let's be honest, would make for a massive difference if they actually stuck to it. Imagine what an Inuit nation was like if even 10% of the members of any given band could cast 1st-level spells daily and 1 or 2 could cast 3rd level spells. Life would look a lot different. Part of the thing about the really, really cold regions of this non-magical planet is that you couldn't survive in a lot of these places without tremendous resources and technological aid, and even then nature happens and people die.

So imagine a magical polar region where the Inuit had to deal with fucking white dragons. Things might not even be recognizable.

Anyway, enough speculation. Time for "Races of the Frostfell." Which consists of some of the stupidest, laziest, most half-assed game design...
Frank

You know what sells books? Good art with sexy ladies in it. Oddly, 3rd edition D&D books had basically none of that. But it turns out that the other thing that sells books is player facing character building options. And 3rd edition D&D had lots of that. More than any other game has ever had. Most likely more than any other edition will every have. The combination of popularity, ease of procedural content generation, and the open gaming license meant that you had more monkeys hammering on more typewriters than ever. It is an achievement that for what it's worth will probably never be equaled. It probably shouldn't be.

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Some things should stay dead.

Anyway, making a character in D&D involves assigning attributes (like Strength or Wisdom), picking a race (like Elf or Gnome), picking a character class (like Rogue or Wizard), spending skill points (on things like Swim and Knowledge: Architecture), and selecting Feats (like Power Attack or Alertness). Honestly, that's a lot of fiddly knobs that players can access, and different D&D characters can be quite distinct. Except of course for the undeniable fact that they are all Dwarven Clerics named Carlos.

What's important from the standpoint of people who want to write expansion material and sell it for money is that a lot of those things don't expand at all or don't call for expansion material in any obvious way. You aren't going to add new basic attributes, saving throw types, or skills because those are baked in to how the game engine interacts with things. And while you might write new mechanics that call for rolling a Survival skill check or a Fortitude Save, you wouldn't be able to pitch them as “New uses of the Fortitude Save” or whatever because no one would ever find information indexed in that way. Which leaves Races, Classes, and Feats. 3rd edition and 3.5 books have an inordinate number of those things. And I say that literally because of course it is a cardinal number, and also hyperbolically because the number is very large. There are over three thousand feats written up for this edition. Not all in this book, this book has thirty three feats, but it certainly added its one percent to this ongoing problem.

The strangest thing about Feats is that the game never gave people enough of them for any of these to matter. You got one Feat at first level, one more feat at third level, one more feat at sixth level, and if the game was still going at ninth level you got a fourth feat. There were some classes and races that gave out a bonus feat or something, but the typical player character got three or four feats ever and most of these feats might as well be parking lots on Neptune for all the good they do anybody. For fuck's sake, this book has a feat chain that is seven feats long. Leaving aside questions of whether it's good or not, the end of that feat chain doesn't functionally exist at any game table. If the top end of that feat chain has any audience at all, it's people who talk about theoretical max-level character optimization rather than playing the game or telling stories. So much of the player facing content was essentially locked in for that audience alone that they ended up being a surprisingly influential group of fans in terms of how new content got produced and marketed, but that's another issue for another time.

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Before the crystal cracked.
AncientH

There are six new racial option. Four of them are variants of existing races with some kind of cold descriptor added: Glacier Dwarfs, Snow Elves, Ice Gnomes, and Tundra Halflings. That's pretty fucking lazy.

The other two, for reasons I don't understand, are Neanderthals and Uldra (snow fey).

The thing is, they don't cover any of the races you'd expect them to cover. Half-White Dragons. Ice-themed Genasi. Half-Frost Giants. Y'know, the kind of assholes that already have an ice-theme. It feels like they missed the low-hanging fruit because it would require some work, and instead wanted ethereal Nordic elves and furry dwarfs.

Also, Neanderthals.

Which is weird. I mean yes, Neanderthals were in Europe when anatomically modern humans arrived, but they're not exactly an arctic species. Also, the right up feels like a hate crime:
The neanderthals are a feral race of humans, created by the crude and violent deities of the winterlands to dwell in their frozen domains. They are a primitive folk who have never seen the need to become more civilized, usually living in caves or abandoned underground ruins and hunting the surrounding regions with great skill.
What, were Frost Orcs just too much of a fucking stretch?
Frank

The concept of subraces gets kinda close to real world racism in a lot of ways and is sometimes more than uncomfortably close when the people involved on the real world side are real world racists. That isn't the case here, but even in this book at its blandest and least offensive, the idea of subraces is still weird. Fantasy stories have fantasy races in them, and elves and halflings have been divided into subraces since Tolkien invented the modern fantasy epic (not that this really avoids charges of early 20th century racism). It's expectable. It's a thing. Maybe they shouldn't still be doing this in the 21st century, but they are. And this book is completely unexceptional as a product of its time. And more than fifteen years later it's still completely unexceptional.

What it is not, however, is a particularly useful set of expansion material for an already existing character. The choice to be a Glacier Dwarf rather than a Mountain Dwarf is made at character generation. Like, their literal actual generation when they were born – many years before they picked up a shield and started adventuring. Once your character has started having adventures as a Dwarven Cleric named Carlos, the addition of new types of Dwarf that your character could have been instead doesn't really help you. It's an option that only meaningfully exists if you roll up a new character. Which in turn means that again the new races and subraces in this book were of primary use to the character optimization people – the people for whom creating characters basically is the game. I don't think I've ever seen any of these races at a real gaming table.

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It doesn't help that the example art of the fantasy races is pretty bad in this book. Not high quality or high concept – both forgettable and unimpressive.

There are six races with rules and a page and a half ranting about how also too some humans live in places where it snows. No special rules apply to these groups, but one of them looks kinda like an Inuit and the other kinda like a Viking, which are perfectly acceptable “humans who live where it is cold” inspirations for a fantasy work to have. The cold version of elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes are all pretty uninspired. They trade minor racial abilities you forgot the races got for other minor abilities that you will in turn forget that they have. The Glacial Dwarf has Ice Cunning instead of Stone Cunning and Cold Resistance instead of Poison Resistance, and in most campaigns this is probably a wash or a net negative, but in any case isn't interesting or splashy enough to make you want to retire Carlos the Mountain Dwarf Cleric to start playing Carlos the Glacier Dwarf Cleric.

The two new races are the Uldras and... sigh... the Neanderthals. Neanderthals are the only race that ever got discussed, because they are strong and tough and dumb, and if all you wanted to do was to play a Barbarian and throw harpoons at people, they are surprisingly not a bad option. I mean, this is still 3rd edition Dungeons & Dragons, so being strong and smacking things with a club stops being a worthwhile life choice about the time the Wizard figures out how to summon monsters that are bigger than your character, but at low levels for simple play the Neanderthal is focused enough that it does overshadow a lot of other similar options. You'd rather be a Neanderthal than a Half-Orc, for example.

The Uldra never got mentioned again by anyone. 3rd edition D&D had an idea called “Level Adjustment” where a character whose race was intrinsically powerful would play as a lower level character. In most cases this worked out to a character having abilities that were not remotely worth their level adjustment and were just generally terrible at everything. But it's important to remember that many games start at first level and the minimum number of class levels you can start with is one. This means that in many games a race with level adjustment was literally unplayable even if it hadn't been a dreadful choice from a game optimization standpoint. It's a character option you can only take when creating a character from scratch, and also too it's a character option you can't take unless you are at least 2nd level. In most games, that's a Catch 22. In any case, the Uldra are blue Gnomes who are slightly more magical and only very slightly better than a Rock Gnome at level parity – with a level adjustment they are a god damned joke. Also a blue gnome is basically a Smurf, and I can't imagine there were a lot of people clamoring to play Ice Smurfs and I've never heard of anyone trying to “fix” these dumfucks.
AncientH

We get some weak talk about classes in the frostfell. I say weak, because honestly if you were at all serious about this, this should be full of alternative class features like giving Rangers Icestride instead of Woodland Stride, or let Paladins cast Endure Elements instead of Lay on Hands. Instead, we get pages of talking about cold-themed gods for Clerics and reminders that Fighters don't get nice things by increasing their bouns feat options to include more feats from this book that you'd never want to waste a feat slot on.

On the plus side, Wizards and Sorcerers can have a penguin familiar, which I approve of.

Although now that I say that, polar bear cub, wyrmling white dragon, small ice elemental...which may or may not exist...there's a lot of room for cool familiars, dammit. It's a pit familiars in D&D are so shit.
Frank

3rd edition had a radical experiment with open multiclassing. That is to say that if you wanted to be a ranger you didn't necessarily have to retire your Dwarven Cleric named Carlos, you could instead just stop taking levels of Cleric and start taking levels of Ranger. This was... a mixed bag. Compared to the rail-shooter that was the class system of previous editions this provided a lot more options. A character could have three levels of Paladin and two levels of Bard and you could just figure out what the heck that meant. Abilities just added, so figuring out how it worked in the game mechanically was a snap. It was very popular.

But of course serious problems are baked into this pie. How do you make abilities to satisfy “you must be this tall” style challenges if a 3rd level Monk might actually be a 7th level character because they also happen to have two levels of Fighter and two levels of Paladin? How do you account for the fact that some abilities meaningfully add like +1 to a roll and +1 to the same roll and other abilities don't add at all like two different abilities you can use instead of taking a normal action? And then there was the raw power aspect where actually going up in level as a fucking wizard gave you access to whole new tiers of spells that were miles ahead of whatever bullshit you might get from taking the first level of Rogue or whatever. If you were honest about making a new edition you wanted to be good, you definitely wouldn't do open multiclassing again – although it was a bold experiment and there were a lot of good ideas here. And it genuinely does work pretty great at fourth level, even though it all falls apart at fourteenth.

But in any case, you go to war with the army you have and this is an expansion book for 3rd edition that was converted into an expansion for 3.5. Within that context, you'd really expect some new character classes and maybe some alternate progressions for classes that already exist. This is I think the portion of player-facing design space that was most underdeveloped in 3.5 expansion material. Why don't we get some sort of Tundra Scout class that you could start as or jump into when you were bored of being a “regular” Rogue or Cleric?

There's a couple of tidbits here, but it's so paltry that it might have been copied off postit notes on the company fridge. An alternate mount for a high level Paladin. An alternate cold weather resiliance for high level Rogues. And some of the basic classes just got paragraphs admitting that they exist. The book acknowledges that Rangers are a thing, and having done its contractual duties, it moves on.

The only basic class that gets more than an acknowledgment or a placeholder where an undeveloped Prestige Class might have been is the Cleric. And that's because every Cleric gets to be a prophet of some specific god and get some minor adjustments to their power set. This book has its own set of nine gods for its own pantheon. Some of them had been previously used in other D&D books (including one that got into D&D books through being a Norse god), and three of them were made up by James Jacobs for the lulz. In any case, none of this shit matters because you don't care about these fantasy nordic religions. They aren't as interesting as real world nordic religions and there isn't enough meat here to do anything with. If you step into a shrine to one of these guys, what does it look like? What calendar do they use? What days do they drink reindeer piss on? I don't know. James Jacobs cared enough to write two and a half pages of this drivel, but not enough to flesh these fantasy religions into a fantasy culture. And because of that, it never went anywhere or meant anything to anyone.

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Lost to memory like tears in rain.
AncientH

What kills me about this is that even with the usual bloat that goes into a lot of race and class descriptions, they don't touch on anything outside of the basic classes - not even the Psionic classes, and those are made for cold-energy abilities - and this is the kind of crap that makes these books so shit in general. It's not just that they don't cover what they claim to cover in any depth, but they don't even pretend to cover the breadth of options you already have.

It wasn't just that you were never going to play an Uldru Scout, it's that even if you did choose to play an Uldru Scout, there was never going to be anything for you as either an Uldru or a Scout in any other book. At least GURPS has the excuse in that "pick up two books and build your own goddamn game" is the entire theme, but if you're an Uldru Scout you can basically count on never going to get any new feats or class features or magic items or...anything. And unlike GURPS, the lack of mechanical support means that the class/race combo is completely stagnant, and that means it's probably going to be underpowered right quick, if it wasn't already.

And again, it didn't have to be this way. It's not that you need a frost-option for every single player class, but if you can't figure out something for everybody to go in the book, then why the fuck are people buying the book?
Frank

I already ranted a bit about feats, and I'm sorry for getting out of order. It is what it is.

One thing I will say about feats such as the ones that appear in this book is that they'd be much more at home in a game where you got abilities like this during adventures. Like, characters getting cold resistance because they were in a tundra adventure and did a training sequence is fine, but if you don't get access to it until you've completed 6th level and you aren't actually in the tundra at all anymore it's kind of a waste. Quite aside from the fact that Altitude Adaptation is not “worth a feat” in a character optimization sense, the timing of acquiring that shit is all wrong. Assuming you spent a feat on Altitude Adaptation (which you wouldn't, because your character has more fingers than feats and may genuinely have more nipples), you get to do that at the end of the high altitude adventure, at which point you'll never use it again because the next adventure is in the desert or under the sea as described in the following environment books.

What they really should have done is give out a lot more feats, but also give them out in the middle of the adventures. So characters would get Altitude Adaptation during the high altitude adventure so that they could show off their toys in a way that they would actually matter.
AncientH

I've been driving for 6.5 hours today and sitting on my ass for another three playing cards, so I'm too tired to go into every single fucking feat. But let's focus on a couple.

Snowcasting is a chain of five feats that are 1) incredibly lazy, 2) incredibly on-brand, and 3) you're never going to take them, but an NPC might. Basically, these a series of feats that are adapted straight from the Player's Handbook but are focused on cold spells and giving you small static bonuses. These feats are on-brand because they are cold-focused, and they are terrible because a lot of basic PHB feats are terrible. Feats should never give static bonuses. Cold Spell Specialization gives +1 or +2 damage/die to cold spells in cold weather, and that's just fucking terrible.

The thing is, this kind of thing only works out if you're designing an NPC specifically to fuck with the PCs. That's it. You give them all the cold feats and hope that whatever slim mechanical advantage it provides is challenging to the PCs. Go forth, thematic ice-wizard, and try not to die too quickly when the PCs set your shit on fire.

What you want are feats that actually increase a character's capability in new directions or eliminate some limitation. So Ice Harmonics, which lets you shatter ice with your voice, isn't bad. You probably won't take it, because it's a highly marginal and situational ability, but it's a legit expansion of what you can do. Snowflake Wardance where you add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls with one-handed slashing melee weapons is so specific and fucking marginal the only reason to take it is because you need a bonus to keep your character relevant, and even then falls into that weird and oddly large number of combat feats that require ranks in Perform (Dance) like D&D is just the fucking Jets vs. the Sharks.

You know what's a good feat? Piercing Cold. It's a metamagic feat that makes a cold spell so cold it hurts creatures immune or resistant to cold. Sure, that feels marginal, but that's the kind of "Fuck you, that's how!" feat that addresses a genuine limitation if you specialize in cold magic for whatever fucking reason.

Worst feat? That's a hard toss-up. Altitude Adaptation and Sea Legs give you bonuses to avoid a condition you will never roll. Mountaineer gives you skill bonus for skills you will never use. Craft Skull Talisman...we'll talk about those later.

Chapter 3: Prestige Classes

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No.
Frank

Prestige Classes were a bad idea. The concept was that character advancement would become personalized. That you'd stop being Elothat the Warrior or Carlos the Cleric and start being the Hero of Bladereach or the Masked Prophet of Mask or whatever. That your character's ability set would become their title. A way to try to accommodate the transformative nature of the hero's journey. That Luke becomes a Jedi, that Aragorn becomes king, that Rand Al'Thor gets to have freaky four ways with a young queen, an Arab battle nun, and the idealized form of the author's older sister.

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Transformation. It's in there after the revelation.

The problem comes with implementation. You couldn't list all the ways a character's transformation across their heroic story without passing out. These books are massive, but they aren't massive enough to cover all the conceptual ground. The Aarne-Thompson-Uther classification of folktales has like two thousand entries in it. And you might want to be inspired by more recent material. Did you know they are still writing more fantasy novels right now? It's true! And people could potentially be inspired by them to tell new stories in the format of a cooperative storytelling game. People can even theoretically make new art that is not derivative of previous works.

In any case, getting reasonable coverage of conceptual space here would be a Herculean task even had they attempted to get that coverage in an efficient manner. And they definitely didn't do that. This chapter is 25 pages long and covers ten potential forms of transformative character advancement. Extending that to simply cover the concepts in the ATU folklore list would be a five thousand page document – roughly thirteen cycles of the Lord of the Rings, end to end, over and over. The Prestige Class project was never finished because it could not be finished. And the writers ended up slow walking it by filling up page count with trivial bullshit like a “Sample Winterhaunt of Iboriighu” that takes a whole page, but it didn't matter. Even if this book dedicated its 25 Prestige Class pages to getting decent coverage, the statistical difference would be negligible. This was a task that couldn't be completed, and completing it three times as fast would just require a proportionately smaller eternity.
AncientH

They give us "prestige class groupings." I don't know why they do that. You don't need a table to separate the "good guys" from the "bad guys" - there are alignment restrictions on some of these classes. Telling us that some of these classes are shittier outside of the frostfell is nice, although again, not exactly revelatory. What if you're a pirate and you end up up on a goddamn frozen mountain. You're not going to be exactly swinging from the goddamn yardarm on a glacier, are you? Fuck no!
Frank

The Prestige Classes we actually get in this book are not good even acknowledging that it was metaphysically impossible for them to be sufficient to cover the design space. The Cloud Anchorite is actually kind of famous in that it's a class based around sitting alone on top of tall mountains and not doing anything. And it doesn't have any obvious means of contributing to the cooperative storytelling experience through the medium of overcoming challenges or assisting allies while they overcome challenges.

Clearly no one put any thought at all into such filthy gamist questions as “What is this character supposed to do on an 8th level adventure?” Because there's absolutely nothing about fighting
stone giants that can be solved by breathing very slowly.
AncientH

Let's cover this quickly:

Cloud Anchorite - Cold monk, but not in any interesting way. If you get up to 10 levels (why?) you become immortal. Because there is no other reason to take this class.

Cryokineticist - Psionic class. Quite literally a re-skin of the Pyrokineticist prestige class. You don't want to take this as a Psionic Warrior because it doesn't advance your manifester level, and you don't want to take this as a Psion because it doesn't advance your manifester level. The individual powers are nice, but this is all shit you'd want as substitute class features, not as a prestige class.

Disciple of Thyrm - A non-cleric divine spellcaster class devoted to a cold god you don't care about. Why didn't they just do a generic Cold Priest class?

Frost Mage - For players that thought the Snowcasting feats were a good idea. It's kind of like the Elemental Savant class except for ice elementals, except ice elementals aren't a thing so they can't call it ice elementals, but you totally turn into an ice elemental. Sortof. In all the ways it matters.

Frostrager - This...isn't terrible. Full BAB. Cold-based rage abilities. Only five levels. You might actually dip into this class if you're a barbarian that likes to tear opponents apart with your hand.

Knight of the Iron Glacier - Cold Paladin that rides a war megalocerous.

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Why the fuck isn't this class just called Moose Paladin?

Primeval - This is...complicated.
The primeval is a warrior who has tapped into his racial memories to find and forge a bond with an ancient creature. He draws incredible power and strength from this bond, and finds that he can change his form into this creature with increasing skill. Many neanderthal tribes count primevals among their strongest warriors
Racial memories are a thing that went out of style back when people finally started admitting race science was bullshit in the 1930s. SO seeing it show up here isn't cool. Other than that, it's a shapechanging class that comes with three useless feats as a prerequisite, all so you can get your furry on.

Rimefire Witch - Remember rimefire? Probably not. It was a long time ago. But it sounded cool, right? Magical fire that burns and freezes. Oh, and look, this is a spellcaster class devoted to rimefire, and it's full caster levels for all 10 levels too! Let's you throw bolts of rimefire and shit. Bad news: divine casters only, and your patron deity has to be Hleid, who was made up for this book. Just like that, you've taken this from what could have been a cool generic specialist caster prestige class and turned it into something so narrow and convoluted that nobody will ever take it.

Stormsinger - Not actually a cold class, but designed for bards to call down weather. That's not terrible, and honestly the idea of expanding bardic music to unlock various spell-like effects with a skillcheck is pretty close to some other stuff that d20 tried in Tome of Magic.

Winterhaunt of Iborighu - Nobody cares about your speciality snow priests. If you actually had written a class called "Snow Priest," and didn't require players to chose a shitty god whose name they can't pronounce, maybe that would actually attract interest.
Frank

The core issue of course is that no one fucking cares about these prestige classes including the people who wrote them. This is procedural game content design. Procedure was followed, content was created. And the fact that the end result is no fucking use to anyone is ancillary.
AncientH

It's worse than that, because not only are these classes generally shitty, but they're shitty in specific ways that could largely have been avoided. Forgotten Realms introduced Speciality Priests of deities back in AD&D 2nd edition, but there they were incorporated as part of the setting. Here, there is no setting. Most of these cold/winter/ice gods never appear in any other product. They could have gotten a lot more traction by making these classes a lot more generic. This should have been about opening up more of the playspace to surviving in and playing with the cold. Fucking rules for snowballs and shit. Instead, we get a bizarre focus on primeval forms and unplayable rimefire bitches.
Frank

Next up: Equipment
Last edited by Ancient History on Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:45 am, edited 4 times in total.
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The Adventurer's Almanac
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Someone forgot to close an italics tag somewhere.
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Petition to put all posts in italics for the entire remainder of this thread.
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