Still more Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[MartinHarper]

Bluff DCs are set by opposing Insight skill checks.
Diplomacy DCs are entirely made up by the DM.
Insight DCs are set by opposing Bluff skill checks or the opponents level.
1/3. It's a shame there are no Diplomacy guidelines.

Oh, I forgot Intimidate. That's opposed by will defence.

[MartinHarper]

Nothing has setting consequences, on any scale. Can you light a fire with a flaming sword? I don't know!

Normally, no. It just does fire damage that only lasts for a few seconds. However, if you use its daily power, you can set stuff on fire via 5 ongoing fire damage, unless it's fire immune or fire resistant. Objects don't make saving throws, so they just burn till disabled/destroyed.

[MartinHarper]

Object rules wouldn't even take up a page.

Indeed. They take up just under one page in the 4th edition DMG.

[K]

The social skills don't work at all. The DCs are set by the DM, so you are only as good as he wants you to be. You might as well just play Magical Princess Tea Party.

Bluff DCs are set by opposing Insight skill checks.
Diplomacy DCs are entirely made up by the DM.
Insight DCs are set by opposing Bluff skill checks or the opponents level.
1/3. It's a shame there are no Diplomacy guidelines.

The DC doesn't matter for the non-Diplomacy skills, because the DM decides if it's a skill contest with several checks, or even if you get a check. Heck, the sample encounter even has people getting worse social encounters when they use skills(Intimidate).

Essentially, the "social" skills are for in combat effects. The rules for actual social challenges are absent.

I mean, at least in 3e the fighter might have an Instant Fortress or a Flying Carpet something after he blew all his gold on a weapon, armor, and a shield.

Flying Carpet is in. Level 20. Can't help you with Instant Fortress, though.

Ok, so that's a bad example. They actually have movement items. Add that to the +bonus items and other metagame items, and you still don't have items that actually affect the setting or how the story unfolds.

[RandomCasualty2]

Here is part of the text for a Fireball:
"The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does."

Now, sure, this could have been placed in a core Fire section, but it is somewhere.

Well for a spell we may want that, because spells don't act according to physics necessarily. But for something like a torch, the DM should be able to figure that out for himself.

Play a little higher level. Succubus have permanent mind control. A Pit fiend gets per encounter summoning, so they can actually assault cities as long as they get five minute rests (which they do since they get good and free teleports). Imps can stay invisible long enough to actually sneak in somewhere.

4E has a few problematic monsters, but so what? It's a heck of a lot better than 3.5 where shadows can multiply crazy out of control by taking a village. Or hell, I really can't find a good reason why great wyrms just don't go sacking cities. Because they totally can. At the very least a bunch of archers in 4E can buy you time against a big threat like a dragon. In 3.5, you're just hosed unless there's a hero around at the time. You better hope you're playing in Forgotten Realms where every barkeep is a retired high level adventurer.

If the DM has to make up 90% of the rules and the other 10% sucks, then it's not a game. It's an outline for a game, and I'm not paying for that.

4E seems to have most of the stuff I care about. There are a few edge cases, but whatever make a ruling. You're using hyperbole here. There are a few omissions, but it's not like the DM is constantly making shit up.

Object rules wouldn't even take up a page. Rules for how different damage types interact with the environment are another page.

Yeah, they could use some definitions for the more obscure damage types. Like what necrotic or thunder damage does to a door... or hell, even just telling us wtf thunder damage is. As it's written officially all damage types deal damage to objects normally, unless the DM decides that for whatever reason an object is specifically resistant or immune.

4E has object rules, but they suck. A little worse than 3.5's too, but you've got to fix both to prevent people from just tunneling through dungeon walls.

It's just poorly designed as an RPG and only moderately well designed for a Flash game. With this amount of handwaving I might as well play Basic, since at least then the learning curve is around ten minutes instead of several months.

4E is basically the basic set only with interesting abilities to use during combat, and a skeleton of a skill system. Still I think it's much better.

[K]

Nothing has setting consequences, on any scale. Can you light a fire with a flaming sword? I don't know!

Normally, no. It just does fire damage that only lasts for a few seconds. However, if you use its daily power, you can set stuff on fire via 5 ongoing fire damage, unless it's fire immune or fire resistant. Objects don't make saving throws, so they just burn till disabled/destroyed.

What page for those rules?

[K]

Object rules wouldn't even take up a page.

Indeed. They take up just under one page in the 4th edition DMG.

Point taken. I didn't see them.

[K]

The fighter always had the option of having good magic items, and in 4e he doesn't because there are no good magic items. I mean, in many of my campaigns I gave the lion's share of the magic items to the fighting characters because they:

1. Sucked, and needed the power, and

2. Needed the versatility so that they didn't get bored and leave the game.

Yeah exactly. All your abilities came from magic items, which pretty much almost universally just duplicated wizard spells. So the big thing for you was picking through the wizard's garbage. At least in 4E you have your own shit.

Seriously, the Ars Magica balance system had to go.

In 4E, fighter powers are more or less on par with wizard powers, that's a step in the right direction.

It's miles better than "Your party members may take pity on you and give you most of the treasure, and you can get interesting items that duplicate a trick or two that the wizard has been doing for the past 5 levels."

Begging shit from the party wizard sucked balls. In 4E, you can actually play a fighter without spending the entire session begging from the rest of your party members and trying to remind them how pathetic you are.

I'm sorry, but fighters in 4e still do that. Rituals are for spellcasters so unless the fighter does some multiclassing, then he still is useless outside combat or for problem solving.

At least in previous editions he could find good magic items and the DM could hand off an artifact sword. Now he just waits around for combat to start and fingers his +4 stat item.

[RandomCasualty2]

I'm sorry, but fighters in 4e still do that. Rituals are for spellcasters so unless the fighter does some multiclassing, then he still is useless outside combat or for problem solving.

At least in previous editions he could find good magic items and the DM could hand off an artifact sword. Now he just waits around for combat to start and fingers his +4 stat item.

Well the fact that everyone else isn't dominating the encounter makes the fighter feel a bit wanted. While it's true that he still lacks social abilities, because of DM set DCs and stuff, social encounters are more about creativity and less about getting a pile of bonuses and using a skill or casting a spell and making it all go away.

And all that stuff is good for RP purposes.

And without wizards having tons of flight capability, athletics isn't a half bad skill for crossing chasms, jumping pits, climbing cliffs and so on.

[MartinHarper]

I think thunder damage is sonic damage. Only "cooler".

An Imp is worse at infiltrating than, say, a level 6 Rogue with the Chameleon utility power, or a level 6 Wizard with Disguise Self or Invisibility utility power, or a level 1 Doppleganger PC. Or any level 1 PC with Stealth training, 18 Dex, and the cover of night.

The DC doesn't matter for the non-Diplomacy skills, because the DM decides if it's a skill contest with several checks, or even if you get a check.

On that basis all the skills suck, not just the social skills. A DM can totally decide that tying your shoelaces is a complexity four skill challenge. And players can decide to thump the DM.

Ok, so that's a bad example. They actually have movement items. Add that to the +bonus items and other metagame items, and you still don't have items that actually affect the setting or how the story unfolds.

They also have an "instant boat" item, so I guess an Instant Fortress might come later. Or it could be house-ruled, of course.

What do you think of artifacts?

[MartinHarper]

What page for those rules?

Just the object rules. I'm assuming that objects don't make saving throws because there are no rules for them doing so, and I'm assuming that objects are effected by conditions in the same way as creatures. You can totally tell me I'm houseruling at this point.

The object rules aren't great. If you don't houserule, then an iron door can be set on fire, or moved off its hinges by a level 1 Fighter's Tide of Iron, or thumped till its destroyed. It's all rather odd.

[K]

I think thunder damage is sonic damage. Only "cooler".

An Imp is worse at infiltrating than, say, a level 6 Rogue with the Chameleon utility power, or a level 6 Wizard with Disguise Self or Invisibility utility power, or a level 1 Doppleganger PC. Or any level 1 PC with Stealth training, 18 Dex, and the cover of night.

How's that? Invisibility is "you can't be seen". There is no Perception check to find invisible creatures and it doesn't interact with Stealth. That makes Imps masters of stealth and Chameleon rogues are poor sots who need to spend skill points and class features to be worse at it.

You can argue that you'd have to make Stealth checks to remain unheard, but that means that the Imp can just wait around in a room until people leave.

Heck, the fact that all of the abilities for Stealth are movement-dependent, a long hall defeats Stealth.

The DC doesn't matter for the non-Diplomacy skills, because the DM decides if it's a skill contest with several checks, or even if you get a check.

On that basis all the skills suck, not just the social skills. A DM can totally decide that tying your shoelaces is a complexity four skill challenge. And players can decide to thump the DM.

Yup, all the skills suck.

Look at the rituals. They work, despite the stupid costs. Skills don't.

Ok, so that's a bad example. They actually have movement items. Add that to the +bonus items and other metagame items, and you still don't have items that actually affect the setting or how the story unfolds.

They also have an "instant boat" item, so I guess an Instant Fortress might come later. Or it could be house-ruled, of course.

What do you think of artifacts?

4e Artifacts suck hard. Considering the weak powers they grant and danger they pose, I'd just leave them in the box. That's sad.

[K]

I'm sorry, but fighters in 4e still do that. Rituals are for spellcasters so unless the fighter does some multiclassing, then he still is useless outside combat or for problem solving.

At least in previous editions he could find good magic items and the DM could hand off an artifact sword. Now he just waits around for combat to start and fingers his +4 stat item.

Well the fact that everyone else isn't dominating the encounter makes the fighter feel a bit wanted. While it's true that he still lacks social abilities, because of DM set DCs and stuff, social encounters are more about creativity and less about getting a pile of bonuses and using a skill or casting a spell and making it all go away.

And all that stuff is good for RP purposes.

And without wizards having tons of flight capability, athletics isn't a half bad skill for crossing chasms, jumping pits, climbing cliffs and so on.

The fact that social encounters are now Princess Tea party doesn't mean that fighters move the plot. It just means that the DM can throw the fighter a bone easier.

[MartinHarper]

How's that? Invisibility is "you can't be seen". There is no Perception check to find invisible creatures and it doesn't interact with Stealth.

Invisibility is "you have total concealment". You can't be seen, but if a creature beats your Stealth check by 10, it can tell precisely where you are from the sound of your breathing or whatever, and it can attack you with a -5 penalty to hit (or with no penalty on an area attack). If it beats your check by less than 10, it just knows that someone's around.

On the other hand, the Imp can also fly, so it's still better than the level 6 rogue.

[Prak]

Preview of 25 Video Game Magic Items

Koumei makes better in, like, 5 frantic minutes than that guy can produce with days.

That sounds like a challenge. So, picking stuff from video games I've played and think are in any way cool (thus ruling out anything with fat plumbers)...

1. Geo Pyramids (cause status effects to the surrounding area) - Disgaea
2. Rocket Punch (unarmed/monk attacks at a range) - FF7
3. Cauldron (cause a mass of status conditions on an enemy) - FF7
4. "Magic Wand" (the cutesy kind from Makai Kingdom)
5. Variable Blade (sword handle that you can attach a road sign, cactus or swordfish to) - Shadow Hearts 3
6. Bio-Force Gauntlet (the BFG) - Doom
7. Destiny Ring (improves accuracy/crits) - Shadow Hearts
8. Technique Manuscript (TMs from Pokemon)
9. Psypher Weapons (soulstealers) - Odin Sphere
10. Chaos Emeralds (SUPER SONIC MODE!) - Sonic the Hedgehog
11. Legendary Runes (spellcasting items) - Suikoden

Okay, I haven't been playing many video games. Suggestions? If we get 25 good ideas, I will stat them out and it will be a better production than their crap.

Variable Blade Mark 2, Blade of the Kingdom's Heart(sword with a small hook on the pommel, to which can be attached a charm on a chain - Kingdom Hearts

[Harlune]

The artificer preview came out,

http://www.wizards.com/files/365_Artificer.pdf

I actually kind of like it better than it's 3E version for a change. It's seems a bit more focused on pure support than the other leader classes they've made so far, but all the fluff for it's powers is just so damn cool. I would totally play one save for the fact there's no way I'd be able to resist the temptation to play a wand based artificer as a Doctor Who wannabe.

[Psychic Robot]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1055414

Any specific responses to this? I'm kind of waiting with baited breath for some real "fire and brimstone" replies so I can post them.

EDIT: Isn't that artificer "healing infusion" pretty much the same thing as healing word?

[Voss]

Oh, awesome.

'Hey, fuckers. Do our playtesting for us.'

On the upside, at least someone will do it this time.

Summary:
Arcane Replenishment- artificers still win.
Components- fucking handwave everything, forever. No, really, thats the class feature: handwave your shit.

Restorative formula- standard healing power that all leaders get.
Curative thing. hurrah. Everybody can spend a healing surge to get a handful of temporary hit points that don't scale well. Use the healing one, dumbass.

And the powers are just wacky. Shielding cube is just fucked up. You have to have a ranged weapon to launch a cube thats enchanted by your implement that goes off in the bushes and does some minor damage and gives you a tiny bonus. Whee. And stupid. Implement based, but must wield a ranged weapon, So with your wand in one hand and a throwing knife in the other, a small cube shoots out of... somewhere and protects you while shocking the enemy. Um?

And I'm done.
Utility 2, Restorative Infusion

The target gains 20 temporary hit points. As a minor action, the target can transfer any number of temporary hit points to an ally within 5 squares.

There are so many things wrong with the wording that I just want the WotC designers to die and raise the quality of the gene pool. Even if you go with the assumption that they really mean that you can only transfer temporary hit points that you actually have, you can still combine it with other ways of gaining temp hit points (like an infernal warlock) and just give the tank a giant pool of temporary hit points that will keep them in the fight forever. 3 character combo-win.

Well, I thought I was done, but the very next power is a magic trampoline.
WotC, Fuck you all very much.

And lets kill any sense of flavor. Its generally bad, but damn. Healing Figurine. Characters can directly manipulate hit points in units thereof. 'Hey we've got immersion and verisimilitude down on the ground, lets kick them in the nuts for a while.

[Leress]

Temporary HP doesn't stack.

[Harlune]

'Hey we've got immersion and verisimilitude down on the ground, lets kick them in the nuts for a while.

Well, if you're going to #$@# verisimilitude in the ass, you might as well go all out and try to have fun with it.

And yeah I think I'd house rule the ranged weapon requirements to 'ranged weapon or implement'.

Also between this and the warlock curse stuff I'm thinking the temp HP rules need to reworked a bit.

[Voss]

Temporary HP doesn't stack.

So? Every time you accumulate a new pile of temporary hit points, you can pass that new pile on to your tank.

Given how laughably low damage is in 4e, you can give someone a pile of temp. HP, and a couple rounds later when its actually gone, you can give them another pile of temporary HP. As written, the power doesn't end, so you can keep doing it. Give, accumulate, tank runs out, give them some more.

@harlune- as long as someone is finding something fun to do in 4e.


On arcane relpenishment- anything really stand out as absurdly broken if you restore a daily power over and over again? it sounds bad, but since you can just buy/make a huge pile of 'resist all 10' belts anyway, I don't know that it actually matters.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

I wonder if this guy is Lich Loved's sock puppet.

I mean, just from looking at his recent posts.

[K]

I wonder if this guy is Lich Loved's sock puppet.

I mean, just from looking at his recent posts.

It's nice to see that the douchebaggery is still in fine form over there.

[PhoneLobster]

You, designers, (bold so you'll look here if you've been rendered disinterested by my earlier preaching)

blahblahblahblitherdroolblah...
HEY PAY ATTENTION! The stuff before this may have lost your interest and its very important you pay attention and in no way does it occur to me that telling you this at length may lose your interest again before I get to the bit you need to pay attention too.
Blahblahgibberhoothootooooweeeeegubgub.

[bosssmiley]

I wonder if this guy is Lich Loved's sock puppet.

I mean, just from looking at his recent posts.

I'd just ascribed the post to Jason Buhlman's ID going feral, hijacking control of his off-hand, and deciding to astroturf up some grassroots support for Pathfinder 3A being perfect and ready for release as-is.

And, oh god! the *horrible* mixed metaphors and abuse of the language. The Authority makes the ghost of Orwell cry. :shock: