Frank, Paizo, and my thoughts

[Leress]

If Caedrus was offended by what Frank posted he could have just reported Frank...bring that old news up has nothing to do with the Paizo situation.

He does give constructive criticism.
*points at my Runic Knight thread*

I've seen that, but he doesn't always.

When he said on a Paizo board that the people who were silent on the good things but critical on the bad things needed to "shut up," he immediately lost any credibility that he had, because he criticized others for doing the opposite.

He's just angry at all sides.

Source?

[Jerry]

Source?

Sorry, but it is buried in the Paizo Archives, which gets cleaned out a lot. If there was some way to find all of Frank's posts over there, then maybe I'll be able to find it.

[Leress]

Source?

Sorry, but it is buried in the Paizo Archives, which gets cleaned out a lot. If there was some way to find all of Frank's posts over there, then maybe I'll be able to find it.

http://paizo.com/people/FrankTrollman

Here...dig away.

[MartinHarper]

While we're all wasting our lives giving people free advice on their posting styles...

Jerry. You're too passive aggressive. Either slag Frank off properly, or quit slagging him off.
Also, you talk a lot about how you're going to stop talking. Either put up by shutting up, or shut up and keep talking.

[Jerry]

Source?

Sorry, but it is buried in the Paizo Archives, which gets cleaned out a lot. If there was some way to find all of Frank's posts over there, then maybe I'll be able to find it.

http://paizo.com/people/FrankTrollman

Here...dig away.

It doesn't list all of his posts, unfortunately. Just the recent ones.

While we're all wasting our lives giving people free advice on their posting styles...

Jerry. You're too passive aggressive. Either slag Frank off properly, or quit slagging him off.
Also, you talk a lot about how you're going to stop talking. Either put up by shutting up, or shut up and keep talking.

Fine, I'll keep talking when it fancies me.

Also, what's wrong with passive aggressive style compared to aggressive-aggressive, like Frank?

[Cynic]

The problem at Pathfinder is that it turns out that it doesn't matter whether your argument is persuasive or not, because Jason isn't really looking for feedback, he's looking for praise.

This is pretty much all that needs to be said about the Pathfinder "playtest".

Seconded.

But really, what did you expect from the Internet? People simply shrugging their shoulders and saying "Let's just agree to disagree?" Everything is a big issue on the Internet.

I don't seem to understand what your point is.

Most people on this board understand that the internet is a large place filled with dunderheads but that doesn't try to stop them from actually trying to put their point out.

There isn't anything wrong in actually caring for what you believe in and then talking about it. Hell, that's one theory as to how religions fucking start up.

Frank, K, and many on this board care about what they (and I put myself in the they here but i just keep quiet most of the time) see as the gigantic pitfalls in the game. They aim to fix it. THey aim to spread the message about it. If you were around before the paizo board debacle started up you would have known that TNE was actually put on hold (and unfortunately is still on hold to a great degree) because many saw the open-playtest as what it was purported to be rather than what it actually was. It was thought to be an intelligent attempt at getting feedback in a way to make 3.5 better. But what did we find out after the fact? The crazy hubris that Jason seems to hold.

I call it hubris because the game design, the game model, the game mechanics as they are to be changed are primarily to come from his or his coterie of developers. No secondary input is required. The pathfinder board was put on rather as an advertising campaign (and a successful one) instead of the publicly reported purpose of a sounding board about this "open-playtest" and any bugs that could be found.

There have been many good models of open-playtests out there. These haven't been in the tabletop market. We can take a fair look at the pc gaming market and the software developers who do open alphas and betas and these come out successfully.

Why? Simply because they often are open to discussion about the bugs and the flaws in the model.

Jason seems to have had a product in mind already and part of the product campaign was to put out a supposed "open-playtest."

~~~

Now let us go back to being rude.

While everybody has admitted that Frank and all others involved were rude, this is a rather moot point because one it can be subjective and two this is also something that should have been nipped in the bud by a moderator.

Looking at the paizo board, they have a lax moderation policy and the present moderation only brought out the ban because it created a gigantic flame surrounding bug-related (in the sense of problem rather than varmint) criticism of the product they were producing.

There have been several flames on the paizo board but not every single one of the perpetrators have been banned. While this could be an unrelated matter this is also something to possibly to consider, I suppose.

~

/end ramble.

[Jerry]

In conclusion: I'm taking a break from here. I'm no fan of Paizo, but I'm no fan of Frank's attitude, either.

I think that he's a good designer, but he's acting like a jerk just to be a jerk, and until he realizes that it hurts his cause more than it helps, he'll not be taken seriously by a lot of message board users.

[Cynic]

-SNIP-
Also, what's wrong with passive aggressive style compared to aggressive-aggressive, like Frank?

I rather someone tell me that I'm a shitwad rather than tiptoe around the fact while thinking I'm one or pussyfoot and call me the same thing in softer terms when he doesn't really believe in the softer terms but in the shitwad-itude of my persona.

[Leress]

In conclusion: I'm taking a break from here. I'm no fan of Paizo, but I'm no fan of Frank's attitude, either.

I think that he's a good designer, but he's acting like a jerk just to be a jerk, and until he realizes that it hurts his cause more than it helps, he'll not be taken seriously by a lot of message board users.

When the tomes were first presented many people do not like them, there were many discussions about them on the WOTC boards. Frank nor K were acting like jerks. It was something radical and many didn't like what it had. Seriously if you just read the tomes there really isn't anything typed that says jerk.

So...you are taking a break from this board because one person has a "jerk" attitude even though it was not directed towards you even when Frank posted in this very thread? That really makes no sense. Frank is one of many poster here. Maybe you do need a break because you have done more direct attacking with this thread than is necessary.

[Cynic]

In conclusion: I'm taking a break from here. .

Well, then have fun.

I won't lie and say that your own attitude hasn't annoyed me but I hope you have fun doing whatever else you will be doing.

[Kaelik]

It's very simple Jerry. Frank is a dick to separate those people who are capable of differentiating logic from emotion.

You are obviously not one of them. We don't mind if you do, because you are just like Lich Loved and Aubrey in that you prefer your insults to be pretend subtle and "nice" (IE deceptive) instead of "rude" (IE honest).

[Talisman]

You are obviously not one of them. We don't mind if you do, because you are just like Lich Loved and Aubrey in that you prefer your insults to be pretend subtle and "nice" (IE deceptive) instead of "rude" (IE honest).

As A_Cynic noted, this is subjective.

Personally, I don't see the point of rudeness online. If you call me a jerk, I'll probably ignore you. If you call me a jerk "nicely," I'll probably ignore you as well.

[Cynic]

It's very simple Jerry. Frank is a dick to separate those people who are capable of differentiating logic from emotion.

You are obviously not one of them. We don't mind if you do, because you are just like Lich Loved and Aubrey in that you prefer your insults to be pretend subtle and "nice" (IE deceptive) instead of "rude" (IE honest).

Dude, the insult wasn't warranted.

If he was at least sticking around then it's a little err... kosher (closest approximation I can think of currently). But you are just belittling someone while he's walking away.

This makes you look like an idiot. Have you ever yelled at someone walking away from you? It's a retarded experience.

So the insult was not warranted for being, well, an insult in a situation where you probably should have at least held your mouth and just said good riddance.

And also because you seem to have insulted yourself as well.
~~

[Surgo]

Eh, he's the guy who's doing the whole "well I'm LEAVING" dramawhoring instead of going away silently. Those people deserve everything they get.

[Aktariel]

In conclusion: I'm taking a break from here. I'm no fan of Paizo, but I'm no fan of Frank's attitude, either.

You like it, you like it. You don't, you leave. That's kind of how it's always worked around here.

I know that for me, I get.. less than polite criticism on occasion. (Not that I very often post things for criticism, but still). However, it helps a deal more than someone saying "this.. could be better."

It's all in what works for people. You're under no obligation to stay here if you don't agree with the way things are.

[Username17]

Also, what's wrong with passive aggressive style compared to aggressive-aggressive, like Frank?

Because one of them is dishonest?

If you're going to insult someone, insult them. Don't say insulting things and pretend that you're not insulting them so that you can act like the injured party when they get mad at you.

Don't stalk people on the internets unless you have a good reason. Did someone kill your dog? If not, why would you spend a substantial part of several months of your actual life ripping on them?

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Dude, the insult wasn't warranted.

If he was at least sticking around then it's a little err... kosher (closest approximation I can think of currently). But you are just belittling someone while he's walking away.

This makes you look like an idiot. Have you ever yelled at someone walking away from you? It's a retarded experience.

So the insult was not warranted for being, well, an insult in a situation where you probably should have at least held your mouth and just said good riddance.

And also because you seem to have insulted yourself as well.
~~

Dude, he's been claiming he can't stand us for a month now, and he has to vocally tell us he's leaving 3 or 4 times. I wouldn't even be terribly surprised if he doesn't.

Not that it matters, because I seriously don't care whether someone is leaving or not, I'm not going to put in any extra effort to insult him, but if he keeps asking the same question, I'm going to answer him.

And how exactly have I insulted myself? I have been accused of many things, subtle and nice are not on that list.

[Neeeek]

Frank's tone puts me off...a lot. When I stop and consider the logic he offers, he's usually right, but his tone make him appear to be an angry, ranting troll. He tends to assume a "me vs. them" attitude, which only puts other posters on the defensive.

Seriously, Frank ought to get a webcam and record his rants rather than posting them. Reading his stuff when you know Frank is evidently a completely different experience than when you don't. I'm not sure why the tone doesn't quite come off right, you'd get it if you read it with Frank's voice (and his eternal barely controlled laughter).

[Kaelik]

Frank's tone puts me off...a lot. When I stop and consider the logic he offers, he's usually right, but his tone make him appear to be an angry, ranting troll. He tends to assume a "me vs. them" attitude, which only puts other posters on the defensive.

Seriously, Frank ought to get a webcam and record his rants rather than posting them. Reading his stuff when you know Frank is evidently a completely different experience than when you don't. I'm not sure why the tone doesn't quite come off right, you'd get it if you read it with Frank's voice (and his eternal barely controlled laughter).

Personally, I never have met Frank or heard his voice, but I always hear constrained laughter in his posts.

[Koumei]

Frank, the man, the mystery...

I tend to imagine him speaking like Yahtzee (Zero Punctuation) when he is in rant-mode. When merely offering useful information? Steven Fry playing the role of Jeeves.

But if he talks medicine it'll probably be Fry's colleague, Hugh Laurie.

[cthulhu]

I don't think frank would be a great success as a consultant or someone who has to manage co-operative negotiations. He would be much more successful as a union leader or someone who has to managed competitive negotiations.

He effectively defaults to competitive mode, which is quite off putting to people who don't want to engage that way. That is fine, lots of people don't. Equally as he has no skin in the game, I'm not sure he has to tailor his style to achieve any particular end.

So to my mind your stuck with that presentation as he has no reason to change, and either you're willing to take his input in that format or your not. As I value the input I'm willing to put up with the competitive approach and some beliefs that I'd put in the same basket as the loose change guys. It's equally valid to bin his input because you are unwilling to deal with the competitive approach.

[JonSetanta]

It's probably just post-party grogginess from celebrating our ancestral victory against the limeys, but all this drama seems exceedingly trivial. It's not even enough for the lulz and that's just sad.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Frank's tone puts me off...a lot. When I stop and consider the logic he offers, he's usually right, but his tone make him appear to be an angry, ranting troll. He tends to assume a "me vs. them" attitude, which only puts other posters on the defensive.

Seriously, Frank ought to get a webcam and record his rants rather than posting them. Reading his stuff when you know Frank is evidently a completely different experience than when you don't. I'm not sure why the tone doesn't quite come off right, you'd get it if you read it with Frank's voice (and his eternal barely controlled laughter).

Frank with his own podcast. Now there's a thought. I mean, unlike message boards, you can't get kicked off your own podcast.

[bosssmiley]

Frank with his own podcast. Now there's a thought. I mean, unlike message boards, you can't get kicked off your own podcast.

Inspired by Koumei's comment on page 3 of this thread I imagine a sort of D&D-flavoured, American-accented Yahtzee calling down well-reasoned fire and damnation on gaming bullshit at 300+ words per minute. It would be great! 8)

[Cynic]

Dude, the insult wasn't warranted.

If he was at least sticking around then it's a little err... kosher (closest approximation I can think of currently). But you are just belittling someone while he's walking away.

This makes you look like an idiot. Have you ever yelled at someone walking away from you? It's a retarded experience.

So the insult was not warranted for being, well, an insult in a situation where you probably should have at least held your mouth and just said good riddance.

And also because you seem to have insulted yourself as well.
~~

Dude, he's been claiming he can't stand us for a month now, and he has to vocally tell us he's leaving 3 or 4 times. I wouldn't even be terribly surprised if he doesn't.

Not that it matters, because I seriously don't care whether someone is leaving or not, I'm not going to put in any extra effort to insult him, but if he keeps asking the same question, I'm going to answer him.

And how exactly have I insulted myself? I have been accused of many things, subtle and nice are not on that list.

you've got something of a point.

it's an insult towards yourself more in the sense that you yelled at him as he was leaving. it's akin to yelling into the wind. it makes you look like a fool. but if he doesn't leave, i'll back off what i've said.