BAAAAWWW 4th Edition Sucks!

Tydanosaurus · Post by **Tydanosaurus** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:14 pm

I don't think 4E sucks. But a lot of it isn't working very well, and it doesn't really help to say, "Golly, the DM can fix that when the problem comes up. I love 4E!"

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:18 pm

Bigode: I do that so someone can't call "you are taking my words out of context"

Angry_Pessimist · Post by **Angry_Pessimist** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:43 am

PhoneLobster wrote:Does anyone else believe my call on Jerry now?

Anyway. 4e is the big news in D&D, indeed D&D now IS 4e.

This site is primarily about D&D.

4e is a bit sucky by our high standards.

Therefore there will be lots of 4e talk and a lot won't be positive. It's like complaining that an Olympics forum is obsessing over China and criticising the quality of some shoddy venue.

Okay, I understand.

But D&D is a game. What's the point of obsessing about a game version that you don't like? It's not like anybody here is getting brainwashed against their will into playing 4th Edition. If gamers don't like it, they go play something else, WotC loses sales, and hopefully, they will learn from their mistakes or go bankrupt.

Ravengm · Post by **Ravengm** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:29 am

Angry_Pessimist wrote:But D&D is a game. What's the point of obsessing about a game version that you don't like? It's not like anybody here is getting brainwashed against their will into playing 4th Edition. If gamers don't like it, they go play something else, WotC loses sales, and hopefully, they will learn from their mistakes or go bankrupt.

It helps us point out the flaws that we can fix in either hombrew-style games or in creating an entirely new edition. We identify and talk about negative aspects so they can be remedied.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:31 am

Angry_Pessimist wrote:But D&D is a game. What's the point of obsessing about a game version that you don't like? It's not like anybody here is getting brainwashed against their will into playing 4th Edition. If gamers don't like it, they go play something else, WotC loses sales, and hopefully, they will learn from their mistakes or go bankrupt.

And what's the point of obsessing over what we discuss here on this forum with our own time?

Seriously Jerry, the last four days where way better then any time before you showed up, because every other post wasn't, "Why do you guys care about anything at all? STOP CARING!"

Next time you stage a childish exit and return under an new name, make it have something to do with the fact that you want to force everyone else to be apathetic.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:42 am

But D&D is a game. What's the point of obsessing about a game version that you don't like?

Again, this is a forum that has always and primarily been about D&D. and 4e IS D&D as it now stands. People will talk about it. A lot. Not exclusively, but certainly exhuastivly.

But perhaps you should also try popping into the WOTC 4e forums and asking them why they keep talking about it all the time?

I think the answer ultimately is that it is a place dedicated specifically to the purpose of talking about it and if you don't understand why people do that then why are you even there to ask the question?

If a tree falls in the forest and you don't give a shit then why keep asking "Trees? WTF? Why are forests full of the stupid things?"

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:49 am

I am amused with Jerry's behavior. Always funny to see someone bring things upon themselves.

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:53 am

Even though I brought it up and even though it's pretty likely, I think its a bit unfair to act 100% like this guy is Jerry/Captain Bleach we don't absolutely KNOW. It could be a, remarkable, coincidence.

Unless someone does an IP match or something.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:35 am

Meh. Even if he isn't the same actual person, he's the same category. And thats always good enough for the internets.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:32 am

I suppose you could turn Jerry/Bleach into a title for people who fall into that category?

Anyway Pessimist, I'm glad you have the ability to choose/dictate what your groups play, but while I'm stuck here away from my friends and can only game over the Internet where I can't just put someone in a crippler crossface until they see my point of view (and also can't just flip through a book pointing at things and saying "See? Right there. It's shit."), I'm largely stuck without a game if the world at large converts.

And it seems to be. Most of the system-players on my site of choice are swallowing it up, even though a few of them seem smarter than that. So because I'm not good at arguing and they seem to have made their minds up already, I'm in danger of being without a game.

Every time something bad about 4E emerges, I can use it as another thing to point out. In general, 4E has become the cause of far too much frustration to me, simply because I don't have any real social contact here so gaming over the Internet is what I'm using as a patch in the meanwhile, so I pretty much have to invest too much, emotionally, into this. 4E has become my subject of hatred, and I will never get tired of saying that it's shit.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:17 am

I concur that it has been annoying whenever a bleach/Jerry/pessimist type (I'm not sure they're the same, bleach seemed to make more useful contributions, when he wasn't fellating / flagellating Frank, than either jerry pessimist has) comes in and tries to question the why and how of the style of how things are done here. It's kind of like having someone come into my favorite bar and complaining that there is only Johnny Cash on the Jukebox

Now that being said, I can imagine that this same sentiment has crept up in others due certain activities by some our residents on boards such as enworld. It's one thing to call someones shit stupid, but out and out baiting for a response just to amuse ourselves is kind of being a jerk.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:41 am

Thats true even with you deal with people in the flesh. I'm moving in a month, and if the place I'm going is filled with stupid people, it will be 4e or nothing. This makes me less than happy.

Plus, criticism is just a useful fucking way of finding the flaws, and communicating them actually helps that sort of shit not get repeated. If you just accept the crap, it becomes OK, and as a result shit becomes the new standard. Being passive and just chowing down with a smile or simply politely refusing means people will feel entitled to keep feeding you shit.

On the other hand, if you toss it back in their face and demand they fucking do better next time, you might actually get something decent.

So, to WotC and all their mindless little minions, I'm knocking the fucking plate off the table. Make it again.

Angry_Pessimist · Post by **Angry_Pessimist** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:45 am

PhoneLobster wrote:Even though I brought it up and even though it's pretty likely, I think its a bit unfair to act 100% like this guy is Jerry/Captain Bleach we don't absolutely KNOW. It could be a, remarkable, coincidence.

Unless someone does an IP match or something.

I am not Bleach or Jerry, or whoever the fuck they are because I don't care about the manners of the board users, or lack thereof. You could be a jerk or a nice guy, but if you say stupid stuff, that's going to annoy me.

That, and I couldn't care less about Frank's message board posts. (aside from the Tome series)

And yes, I do realize that it is hypocritical of me to bitch, whine, and moan about how you guys conduct yourselves, so I'll stop now, and apologize to everyone and patch up any old wounds.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:51 am

Voss wrote:Being passive and just chowing down with a smile or simply politely refusing means people will feel entitled to keep feeding you shit.

WotC doesn't seem to be learning from their mistakes.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:53 am

Kaelik wrote:And what's the point of obsessing over what we discuss here on this forum with our own time?

How about if I stopped complaining, admitted that I'm wrong, and just stopped reading certain threads and posted about other things, would you be happy then?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:04 am

Angry_Pessimist wrote: I am not Bleach or Jerry, or whoever the fuck they are because I don't care about the manners of the board users, or lack thereof. You could be a jerk or a nice guy, but if you say stupid stuff, that's going to annoy me.

Okay...that's why we have the thread "thread that make us laugh, cry or both"

That, and I couldn't care less about Frank's message board posts. (aside from the Tome series)

Also the Skip/Frank fiasco

, but really no has really mentioned Frank on this thread

And yes, I do realize that it is hypocritical of me to bitch, whine, and moan about how you guys conduct yourselves, so I'll stop now, and apologize to everyone and patch up any old wounds.

Oh, that is neither angry nor pessimistic, you losing your touch already?

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:12 am

Angry_Pessimist wrote: I am not Bleach or Jerry, or whoever the fuck they are because I don't care about the manners of the board users, or lack thereof. You could be a jerk or a nice guy, but if you say stupid stuff, that's going to annoy me.

That, and I couldn't care less about Frank's message board posts. (aside from the Tome series)

And yes, I do realize that it is hypocritical of me to bitch, whine, and moan about how you guys conduct yourselves, so I'll stop now, and apologize to everyone and patch up any old wounds.

Well just as a thought. Next time you stroll into a place, before you pontificate on how people are doing things and how they should be done, you might want to wait and decide if the way you want things done is going to be accepted by those already there. To walk into a new place and change it, you've got to have the stuff to back up what you want and stamina to endure negative responses while you prove it works. Otherwise you get fragged like has happened now.

Neeeek · Post by **Neeeek** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:09 am

ckafrica wrote: It's kind of like having someone come into my favorite bar and complaining that there is only Johnny Cash on the Jukebox

To be fair, I like Johnny Cash, and I'd still bitch if there was nothing else on the juke box. Internally, at least.

As for the topic at hand, the Gaming Den is pretty much not like other boards. There's a much higher tolerance for insulting language and somewhat abusive humor and much less for inane arguments and bitching about the way we conduct ourselves. The latter doesn't even really piss us off so much as get one of these:

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:28 am

Jerry wrote:How about if I stopped complaining, admitted that I'm wrong, and just stopped reading certain threads and posted about other things, would you be happy then?

But... but you're not here! Are you? You flounced dramatically out of the room, never to return!

I don't know what gave your identity away; the passive-aggressive tendencies, the inability to see a joke, the ludicrously high per-day post count, the infantile pastiche that was your new name choice, the inherent irony of you not understanding what a pessimist is, harping on about the exact self-same topics as your alter-ego or, you know, actually posting to the thread under your original name.

*sigh*

The thing is, many people here are D&D fans and have been in some cases - I strongly suspect - since you were busy spelling out the words in Janet And John Go Trolling. Some of us are emotionally invested in it - rationally or otherwise - and have a perfect right to discuss what we feel is wrong with the new system in a forum appropriate to the topic.

For all that people have come up with decent reasons why doing so is A Good Thing, the fact of the matter is that we don't need to justify the discussion of our ire, only the ire itself. Most of the 4E haters here have different primary reasons for disliking the game and feeling upset about WoTC's reinterpretation of D&D, and possibly even derive a degree of satisfaction out of hearing new reasons to hate it that hadn't even occurred to them before. Certainly more satisfaction than they're likely to derive from playing it.

Is that rational? No. Is it normal? Absolutely; the reinforcement of mutually-held beliefs within a niche community, on topics of absolutely no significance to the majority of people is a cornerstone of the Internet :twisted:

But what it boils down to is this. Your argument has no logical force or substance behind it either. The majority of people here who couldn't give a damn one way or another about 4E and its quirks simply don't participate in those discussions. You'd seriously just as well go to the WoTC forums and say "Why do you guys sit around all day discussing how much you like the game? Just play that system and accept that there are people who won't, but stop discussing it already! We know you like it; there's no need for loads of threads saying so!"

Our discussions about what's wrong with the system often are constructive, and history has shown that sometimes - just sometimes - the people who hold the D&D license will listen to the feedback and improve the next revision.

Think of what we're doing here of playtesting our objections to the system so that we can release our finished product - a coherent set of arguments for change - when we're sure they're balanced and working.

By contrast, all you are ever going to achieve by going to a forum populated by a mix of people who either a) dislike D&D and want to discuss the reasons why or b) simply Just Don't Care is to irritate folks who weren't doing you any harm. You're not going to convince anybody that it makes sense to stop discussing it because even if it IS ultimately going to be pointless, we're not hurting anybody, it's our freakin' time and we can do with it what we will. The only thing I can think of that's more futile and pointless than "random whining on the Internet with no planned goal in sight" is "random whining on the Internet ABOUT random whining on the Internet".

In the meantime, you're just annoying people and drawing disapprobation down on your head. Perhaps that's what you want - it's not uncommon, which is why there's a word for it - but if it isn't, you seriously need to learn to stop complaining and only participate in those discussions you feel you're going to get something out of. That's why we're all here, after all.

And yes, that INCLUDES not loudly telling people every five minutes that you're not going to complain any more.

Take it easy, huh?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:40 am

Amra: To be fair Jerry said that he was taking a break from these boards. Other than that I agree.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:09 pm

Angry_Pessimist wrote:I am not Bleach or Jerry, or whoever the fuck they are because I don't care about the manners of the board users, or lack thereof. You could be a jerk or a nice guy, but if you say stupid stuff, that's going to annoy me.

That, and I couldn't care less about Frank's message board posts. (aside from the Tome series)

So now in addition to not knowing who Jerry/Bleach are, you already know the types of things they argued about, even though no one has actually mentioned them yet to you.

Yeah, Jerry, you aren't very good at this.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:13 pm

Jerry wrote:How about if I stopped complaining, admitted that I'm wrong, and just stopped reading certain threads and posted about other things, would you be happy then?

Well since you've already told us several times that you were going to stop complaining, and you told us that you were going to leave, and all you did was complain in a special thread dedicated to it, and then create an alternate account to keep complaining...

Yeah, I'm not really going to believe anything you say. You want to stop complaining? Just do it already and stop telling us you are going to.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:14 pm

Jerry wrote:
Kaelik wrote:And what's the point of obsessing over what we discuss here on this forum with our own time?
How about if I stopped complaining, admitted that I'm wrong, and just stopped reading certain threads and posted about other things, would you be happy then?

It wouldn't bother me one way or the other.

I imagine that it would make you happy though.

That's why I recommend that people not read threads just b/c they have new posts in them. People should read threads b/c they are interested in the thread's discussion.

Yes, sometimes that means that there are 5 or so threads that have new posts and that you won't read them. So what? It doesn't matter, you've got better stuff to do with your time.

Amra · Post by **Amra** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:21 pm

Leress wrote:Amra: To be fair Jerry said that he was taking a break from these boards. Other than that I agree.

On re-reading, you are absolutely right and my recollection was wrong; I sit duly corrected and hereby withdraw the first 17 of my 672 words on the topic. 8)

I shall also allow my error stand for posterity rather than edit out my douchebaggery in an attempt to pretend it never happened

Edited to include Leress' post! Heheh

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:55 pm

PhoneLobster wrote:Anyway. 4e is the big news in D&D, indeed D&D now IS 4e.

This site is primarily about D&D.

No, man, just no. One can say Denizens get amusement off insulting crappy design, but don't come with this "standard" concept, because the standard's stickied on this subforum (along with the candidate to new standard).

Leress wrote:Bigode: I do that so someone can't call "you are taking my words out of context"

Great - I might use it someday, but I haven't shown in the worst kinds of discussion lately, even before the break in posting.

(Was interrupted before reading the whole thread while writing this - sorry if it brings redundancy.)