Obama Cover-up on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors

[ckafrica]

This is not part of a grand Planned Parenthood conspiracy. It's a fundamental reassessment as to the definitions of life and death that were undertaken by the entire scientific community in response to the findings of the 20th century investigations. We looked hard at the problems, and your medieval solutions were not the ones that we needed to solve them.

Hey Frank, do you have a reference to this decision? I didn't find it in Wiki when looking at the oath?

[Username17]

The original oath is unchanged. It's just that today we use knives (surgery), poisons (antibiotics), perform abortions, teach medical "secrets" to people outside the profession, and earn wages. So the old oath is no longer something we do. The current oath is this:

DOCTORANDI CLARISSIMI. EXAMINIBUS, QUAE AD EORUM, QUI IN ARTE MEDICA DOCTORIS NOMEN AC HONORES CONSEQUI STUDENT, DOCTRINAM ET FACULTATEM EXPLORANDAM LEGE CONSTITUTA SUNT, CUM LAUDE SUPERATIS, NOS ADIISTIS DESIDERANTES, UT VOS EO HONORE IN HOC SOLEMNI CONSESSU ORNAREMUS.
PRIUS AUTEM FIDES EST DANDA, VOS TALES SEMPER FUTUROS, QUALES VOS ESSE IUBEBIT DIGNITAS, QUAM OBTINUERITIS, ET NOS VOS FORE SPERAMUS.

SPONDEBITIS IGITUR:
(everybody stands up)

PRIMUM, VOS HUIUS UNIVERSITATIS, IN QUA SUMMUM IN ARTE MEDICA GRADUM ASCENDERITIS, PIAM PERPETUO MEMORIAM HABITUROS, EIUSQUE RES AC RATIONES, QUOAD POTERITIS, ADIUTUROS;
DEIN, HONOREM EUM, QUEM IN VOS COLLATURUS SUM, INTEGRUM INCOLUMEMQUE SERVATUROS;
POSTREMO, DOCTRINAM, QUA VOS NUNC POLLETIS, CUM INDUSTRIA VESTRA CULTUROS ET CUM OMNIBUS INCREMENTIS, QUAE PROGREDIENTE TEMPORE HAEC ARS CEPERIT, AUCTUROS ET IN PROSPERITATEM HOMINUM STUDIOSE CONVERSUROS, DENIQUE CUNCTIS OFFICIIS, QUAE PROBUM MEDICUM SPONSIONI HIPPOCRATICAE OBTEMPERANTEM DECENT, EA QUAE PAR EST HUMANITATE ERGA QUEMCUNQUE FUNCTUROS ESSE;

HAEC VOS EX ANIMI VESTRI SENTENTIA SPONDEBITIS AC POLLICEBIMINI?

(Doctorands swear separately to the sceptre of the University:)
SPONDEO AC POLLICEOR!
(Promotor:)


ITAQUE IAM NIHIL IMPEDIT, QUOMINUS HONORES QUOS OBTINERE CUPITIS, VOBIS IMPERTIAMUS.
ERGO EGO PROMOTOR RITE CONSTITUTUS VOS EX DECRETO ORDINIS MEI MEDICINAE UNIVERSAE DOCTORES CREO, CREATOS RENUNTIO OMNIAQUE MEDICINAE UNIVERSAE DOCTORIS IURA AC PRIVILEGIA POTESTATEMQUE UNIVERSAM ARTEM MEDICAM EXERCENDI IN VOS CONFERO. IN CUIUS REI FIDEM HAEC DIPLOMATA UNIVERSITATIS CAROLINAE SIGILLO FIRMATA VOBIS IN MANUS TRADO.

Th key portion is the part where we fulfill all the obligations of the hippocratic oath required of "respected physicians" rather than all of them. Because damn, there's a lot of stuff in that old document that we just don't do.

-Username17

[Username17]

Other oaths took longer to update themselves. For example, the Declaration of Geneva still mentioned life "from its conception" until 1984, by which time that was considered hopelessly out of date.

The United States recognized brain stem death as the border between life and death in the 1970s. Japan didn't recognize brain death until 1997!

-Username17

[tzor]

Sorry for not replying recently, a combination of being busy and seeing this site unreachable whenever I tried to get on and then whenever I tried to post in the last few days. Not that it matters, I don't think anyone wants to read what I write anyway.

[Optimator]

I was enjoying it.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Not that it matters, I don't think anyone wants to read what I write anyway.

You certainly seem to elicit a strong response with your posts. I'm not sure how that would happen if nobody read them.

But most "denizens" do tend to lean towards the Democratic and scientific side of things rather than the Republican and Christian. And we tend to be almost as vehement in our non-gaming opinions as our gaming ones, and as blunt and aggressive to boot.

[Calibron]

I'm happy to see you back Tzor. I've just been too busy looking for employment, and spending my free time recovering from such, to contribute much. Not having a job is the worst job I've ever had.

[tzor]

Well I'm glad some people like what I write and I hope that I don't have too many troubles with the webpages. Anyway this thread has turned into swearing ... I mean oaths not the use of censored words.

Anyway Frank gave the impression that all the doctors in the world met and came up with a decision on life ... based solely on the oath. I thought that was looney ... and I'm right. It may have happened before you were born Frank, but I'm a middle aged fart, remember?

Anyway onto the Lasagna Revision ... from Wiki (you got to know how to look)

Throughout Lasagna's distinguished career he wrote and lectured extensively on a variety of topics. He was well-known for his simple eloquence, as well as his sense of humor and humanity in addressing such controversial topics as birth control, abortion, euthanasia, and medical experimentation on humans. In 1964, Lasagna wrote a modernized version of the Hippocratic Oath, which emphasized a holistic and compassionate approach to medicine. Today, the "Lasagna Oath" has been adopted by many medical colleges.

As in each medical college that adopted it did so when the deans thought it was a good idea.

Meanwhile back at the hospital, just as the old idea of a beating heart has been discarded because it is possible to restart the heart and resume normal function so too is the wall of brain death starting to crack. People are actually recovering from "brain death." This is scaring the shit out of many doctors because they need a "living" but "brain dead" patient in order to get certain organs for transplants. The thought that they might be harvesting from a possibly living person could throw a sabot into the entire transplant industry.

[shirak]

Anyway Frank gave the impression that all the doctors in the world met and came up with a decision on life ... based solely on the oath. I thought that was looney ... and I'm right. It may have happened before you were born Frank, but I'm a middle aged fart, remember?

You claim to be a physicist, even going so far as to make it a part of your signature and you don't know how peer review works?

You've already said you're old but this part of the so called scientific method has been around since the Renaissance. I'd have expected you to understand how scientific ideas change over time as it has happened several times in our profession and is happening right now anyway. I expected better from you man.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

Ha ha ha, oh my god, tzor actually used that damn Loony Left image macro.

What's up with that thing anyway? I've been seeing it pop up more and more often. It's so cheesy and so accidentally paints the user of it as an idiot that it's awesome. If it scaled better I might use it as my user image.

[ubernoob]

But most "denizens" do tend to lean towards the Democratic and scientific side of things rather than the Republican and Christian. And we tend to be almost as vehement in our non-gaming opinions as our gaming ones, and as blunt and aggressive to boot.

Can you be republican and scientific? I'm pretty sure that's how I lean. Of course, I try and stay out of politics most of the time.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Can you be republican and scientific? I'm pretty sure that's how I lean. Of course, I try and stay out of politics most of the time.

Of course you can be Republican and scientific. Just because the party is pandering to the fundies doesn't mean any individual Republican can't be a solid empiricist.

However, a lot of Republicans I know don't seem to understand that their party no longer stands for what they think it stands for. Individual rights? Small government? Fiscal discipline? Hah!

[ubernoob]

Can you be republican and scientific? I'm pretty sure that's how I lean. Of course, I try and stay out of politics most of the time.

Of course you can be Republican and scientific. Just because the party is pandering to the fundies doesn't mean any individual Republican can't be a solid empiricist.

However, a lot of Republicans I know don't seem to understand that their party no longer stands for what they think it stands for. Individual rights? Small government? Fiscal discipline? Hah!

I'm probably way out of date on politics (I really hide from it; too much to keep track for me), so I could well be a democrat in this election. Really not informed enough to vote right now though.

[JonSetanta]

Sorry for not replying recently, a combination of being busy and seeing this site unreachable whenever I tried to get on and then whenever I tried to post in the last few days. Not that it matters, I don't think anyone wants to read what I write anyway.

I enjoy your wit, your lovable grognard.

Caliborn: same. It's the sinking feeling of extended unemployment that hurts, added with nagging from parents telling me "Just get a job making pizza" when not even THOSE kinds of people want to hire.

[Username17]

Can you be republican and scientific?

You can, it's just really hard. I mean, the Fascist Party does very well in Singapore, all kinds of seemingly unlikely ideologies exist and flourish in all kinds of situations. But the Republican party has an uphill battle appealing to the scientifically inclined, because their platform doesn't make any sense. There is a reason that people with more education are more likely to vote against the Republicans, and it's not because universities have lesbian mind control squads in them.

Let's look at the official Republican Party Platform for 2004: Here. This isn't analysis, this is literally their own words justifying what it is that they do. And it's kind of insulting to anyone who has paid any attention at all.

Let's look at their key points:

• Winning the War on Terror.
  
  How's that working out? While the section is 38 pages long and uses the words "September 11th" 21 times, we have to agree that their actual plan is atrocious. I mean, they seriously said in their platform that Saddam Hussein was providing a safe haven for terrorists and used WMDs. Do these guys read the newspaper? Are they at all aware of the fact that their invasion found no WMDs and created a safe haven for terrorists?
• Ushering in an Ownership Era.
  
  What the heck is that supposed to mean? Well it means that they intended to get a lot of people to own property and restructure lending practices and regulations to make that happen. So, how's that working out?
  
  You got that right: setting up the Sub Prime Loan Implosion was #2 on the 2004 party platform. They did it, it happened. Cause and effect.
• Building a Innovative, Globally Competitive Economy.
  
  Everyone wants one of those! What's their plan?
  "Lower Taxes and Economic Growth"
  Oh. Right. The Laffer Curve. How's that working out? In fact, how has that ever worked out? Like maybe, the last three times we tried it!?
• Strengthening Our Communities
  
  Another great goal. What's the plan?
  "Promoting Affordable, Accessible Health Care; Strengthening Medicare"
  Sweet! That's a good way to go about it. Except... wait a minute, isn't their Health plan the one that raised healthcare costs higher than they had ever been in any country in the history of man? Why yes, yes it is.
• Protecting Our Families
  
  Protect them from what? Well, as it happens, they mean protect our families from gay family members starting their own families, protect our families from having their children be told about contraception techniques at school clinics, protect our families from receiving welfare checks, and so on.
  
  They throw in support for scientifically proven ineffective abstinence-only programs, attempt to redefine the constitution so that bundles of cells have rights and people accused of crimes do not, and so on. In short, their specific proposals have almost unanimously been tried and demonstrated to be losing propositions.

And that's it. That was their actual platform. In reality, when subjected to objective analysis, it was an incredibly fucking stupid plan. I could go on all day arguing about whether it was evil or misguided or whatever, but from the scientific perspective it doesn't really matter. The plans don't work and supporting them doesn't make any sense.

-Frak

[ubernoob]

Damnit, now I know I'm not a republican. Looking at the democrat platform, I now know I'm a democrat. Shit. Now I know more than ever I've got to not talk politics with my family.

[tzor]

Ha ha ha, oh my god, tzor actually used that damn Loony Left image macro.

That what did you just call that? Honest, they had a slide show before President Jackson gave her speech on the state of the Institute at my 25th reunion and suddenly in the middle of all the slides my college photo appeared. So it's a photo of a projection, done under bad conditions and adjusted with a few photo editor effects. I really ought to grab the '83 Transit and do it right.

The Republican Party does stand for small government; unfortunately it only does so at the local level. In my own town of Riverhead we are currently trying to do with less only to realize that in some ways we have been doing without in areas that we can't afford. (As in our town criminal judge doesn't even have a clerk or a computer. He doesn't have any law interns, so that any motion made by the defense literally puts a trial on hold for months. And the law books are his, when he retires he is taking them with him.)

I am well aware of what peer review is and more importantly what it is not. It is not a supreme court, it's more of secondary sources of due dilligence. More important a college oath isn't peer reviewed. It is adopted upon the advice of the deans and on an individual college by college basis. And I don't have a list of all the places that use or do not use the revised oath.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

The Republican Party does stand for small government; unfortunately it only does so at the local level. In my own town of Riverhead we are currently trying to do with less only to realize that in some ways we have been doing without in areas that we can't afford. (As in our town criminal judge doesn't even have a clerk or a computer. He doesn't have any law interns, so that any motion made by the defense literally puts a trial on hold for months. And the law books are his, when he retires he is taking them with him.)

They SAY they want smaller government and I'm inclined to believe the Libertarian/Business Conservatism wing of the party.

However, the neo- and social-conservatists, who do occupy a large part of the ideological agenda, do not believe in a smaller party. Like, at all. I thought the last ~30 years of government would make this obvious. Apparently not.

[tzor]

However, the neo- and social-conservatists, who do occupy a large part of the ideological agenda, do not believe in a smaller party. Like, at all. I thought the last ~30 years of government would make this obvious. Apparently not.

Yes, but the neo-cons don't have much influence at the local level, mostly because they concentrate on the federal level. Likewise the social-cons are mostly in a small section of the south east US. The moderately social conservative is the backbone at the local level.

The house, as they say, is divided which sort of explains the problem with the party in general.

[The 13 Wise Buttlords]

But anyway, that Loony Left image macro is just utterly... I don't know what the world is. What do you get when you combine kitsch with bathos with arrogance? It's that thing.

I want a smaller one, so I can mock it all day.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Damnit, now I know I'm not a republican. Looking at the democrat platform, I now know I'm a democrat. Shit. Now I know more than ever I've got to not talk politics with my family.

Be careful. You don’t want to define yourself by what you are not. As Frank pointed out, currently Republican ideologies and plans are shit, and scientific minds find it difficult to accept them. Don’t allow yourself to defend Democrats on any particular issue just because most Democrats support an issue. Only defend an issue if you believe it to be the right one. Don’t oppose Republicans because they are Republicans, oppose them on particular issues.

Otherwise you fall into Team Republican vs Team Democrat, and you find yourself arguing against, or supporting issues, purely out of some sort of perceived “loyalty.”

That’s how you get situations like the 2004 presidential election. Many Republicans voted for Bush just because they needed to vote against Kerry because he was on Team Democrat. Do you really think Bush would have been elected if all of those Team Republican Voters had stayed home?

There is a quote which can be applied to this situation: "Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Many people choose the disastrous simply because it is on their Team.

[ubernoob]

Damnit, now I know I'm not a republican. Looking at the democrat platform, I now know I'm a democrat. Shit. Now I know more than ever I've got to not talk politics with my family.

Be careful. You don’t want to define yourself by what you are not. As Frank pointed out, currently Republican ideologies and plans are shit, and scientific minds find it difficult to accept them. Don’t allow yourself to defend Democrats on any particular issue just because most Democrats support an issue. Only defend an issue if you believe it to be the right one. Don’t oppose Republicans because they are Republicans, oppose them on particular issues.

Otherwise you fall into Team Republican vs Team Democrat, and you find yourself arguing against, or supporting issues, purely out of some sort of perceived “loyalty.”

That’s how you get situations like the 2004 presidential election. Many Republicans voted for Bush just because they needed to vote against Kerry because he was on Team Democrat. Do you really think Bush would have been elected if all of those Team Republican Voters had stayed home?

There is a quote which can be applied to this situation: "Politics is not the art of the possible. It consists in choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable." - John Kenneth Galbraith

Many people choose the disastrous simply because it is on their Team.

I'm actually way ahead of you on this. I just hadn't payed much attention to the parties lately (like, the past year). I'll become fully informed before I submit my ballot.

[Optimator]

Let's look at the official Republican Party Platform for 2004: Here. This isn't analysis, this is literally their own words justifying what it is that they do. And it's kind of insulting to anyone who has paid any attention at all.

Hah, thy said they endorse the "bold and visionary leadership of President George W. Bush and Dick Cheney." That made my night.

[Cielingcat]

Considering those were the people they had running for president at the time that platform was written, it's a little difficult not to endorse them.

[Crissa]

Ownership Era also refers to owning own's debts, one's health care, and well, basically paying your own way.

Which in a real community, doesn't actually work. Someone's already paid for your school. Someone's paid for the streets. Someone paid for the police and the firefighters and the ambulances. Someone paid for the park you played in, the swings you swung on, and the immunizations you got before entering school. Someone paid for the bridges we cross and the dams that keep the flooding at bay. Someone paid for the clean air - well, more clean than a hundred years ago - we breathe. Someone paid for the hospitals. Someone paid for the wars fought in defense.

Ownership to these guys means you have you pay - or own - all of that. As well as paying for the wars of aggression to fatten their own coffers. And paying for their cheap oil. And paying so they can own more and more of the country while you own less and less.

That's the ownership society. Something that the robber-barons of the late nineteenth century would have approved of.

-Crissa