Is 3rd Edition dead yet?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:25 am

I thought it was, but it doesn't quite seem to be the case. While WotC stopped producing material for 3rd Edition, other people still have projects that use the system, notably Order of the Stick and whatever the fuck Paizo is doing.

Though for my money you couldn't get a system more entrenched in popular culture than AD&D. Pretty much ANY cRPG, with the exception of the MP mechanic, sucked that system off and hard.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:07 am

Lots of people are still playing with or working on stuff for 3e. And right they are, too, because converting to 4E is honestly a step back.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:37 am

Word.

I like 3e. It has many bugs, but I understand the system and it works for me, for what it tries to do. I don't despise 4e so much as I am filled with ennui by it, so we're not going there.

Also, if I gave up on 3e, Sig and I would have to totally redo Project Feybook. Ain't doin' that.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:54 am

Given the license issues, pretty much every publisher aside from WotC is stuck working with 3e mechanics for their material.

That's going to keep it from totally dying off (or even falling to the rare level of OD&D games) for quite some time.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:00 am

Well, WotC's gamble with 3E was to become the industry standard, and, in a way, they succeeded. However, one of the side effects is that people will compare their latest stuff to 3E, which is one reason why we can see that 4E is crap.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:11 am

Talisman wrote:Word.

I like 3e. It has many bugs, but I understand the system and it works for me, for what it tries to do. I don't despise 4e so much as I am filled with ennui by it, so we're not going there.

Also, if I gave up on 3e, Sig and I would have to totally redo Project Feybook. Ain't doin' that.

Double word. Feybook is not going 4e. If anything, Anets won't even let me push a few 4e revisions such as CON score to HP, static skill bonuses, and so on.... although allowing per-encounter mechanics was a smart move.

3e may have flaws but I've known it for almost a decade. It's worked, mostly, for that long without making me toss handfuls of 3e paper around screaming FUCK THIS FUCKING FUCKSHIT.
You older gamers probably feel or felt the same way about AD&D in kind, but having converted from AD&D (later revisions) to 3.0 back when it debuted I did experience both (and a little 1e) just enough to state confidently that yes indeed 3e is better IMHO.

There are ways of increasing its durability, such as E6 and various spell nerfs, but as a whole I don't find too much wrong with the system to give it up just because the creators said "OK, everybody move down! Clean cup clean cup MOOOVE DOOOOWN".

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:00 am

Hilarious fact: Con score to hp would make warriors suck right from level 1.

koz · Post by **koz** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:26 am

I am in great agreement with everything has been said so far on this thread.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:30 am

Yeah, about that OGL yanking.

What the fuck?

I don't see hardly any books for 4th Edition out there in the gaming store or in bookstores lately. That's probably because you could hold all of the official material (not counting core rules duplicates) in one hand. After 4 months of being out.

Not really savvy of WotC. Are they TRYING to kill their product off?

Personally, I think it'd be really funny if 4th Edition went under but 3rd continued to chug along. Who knows, it might even happen by this time next year.

Hey_I_Can_Chan · Post by **Hey_I_Can_Chan** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:01 am

No, WOTC are trying to corner their market share.

Dude, yes.

3(.whatever)E remains a solid, tested system with vast support and, I'm guessing, thousands of books available, now, often, at cut-rate prices.

3(.whatever)E is viable and playable--4E is a tactical wargame with a nod at role-playing, which is what the vast majority of folks consider neither viable nor playable.

It just might take some of them a while to come around.

To Spycraft 2.0.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:25 am

But Spycraft isn't D&D. No, shut up, it's not. It only does one thing well, but luckily, that's what it was made to do:

Modern-day, magic-free*, deadly "Who you are seriously doesn't matter when combat breaks out, not even your stats. Simply the size of your penis extension gun." games. That's all.

So really, we want people to return to D&D 3E. Hell, most of the bugs were fixed by F&K - if people just quit crying "But core isn't perfect!" and used that, they'd be happy. As opposed to saying "Core isn't perfect.", crying, and deciding to use 4E, which is a heap of shit and HASN'T been fixed yet.

*No monsters. No magic. No psionics. Guns only. FINAL DESTINATION.

erik · Post by **erik** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:32 pm

Ennui is definitely my take on 4e. Nothing about it excites me at all. Given the choice between it and 3e, I would take 3e hands-down.

While I like that 3e probably won't be disappearing in a puff of smoke since 4e is not a viable replacement for it with their new "OGL." So much of the d20 crap that was made during 3e's reign was utter crap and useless. Pretty much anything "modern" is a mess with 3e/d20 rules. I do appreciate that 4e is driving other game companies to try different things rather than to try and ride the coat-tails of the 4e system even if it had no place there.

A positive example, Savage Worlds is very much to my liking with very minor tweaking. I'm sure there are other game systems out there as well which will be getting some attention by developers.

rapa-nui · Post by **rapa-nui** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:04 pm

3e isn't dead by any stretch, and because people have been playing with it for 10 years now, I think most people have developed a sane system of house rules. Plus, the Core Rules are fairly workable at low levels... just have to watch out for game-ruining insta-kills.

That said, 4e has a lot of untapped potential. The basic mechanics are solid... the classes, skills, and powers presented are simply boring and 'safe' from a game design POV (and they still managed to screw the pooch with Blade Cascade).

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:12 pm

rapa-nui wrote: That said, 4e has a lot of untapped potential. The basic mechanics are solid... the classes, skills, and powers presented are simply boring and 'safe' from a game design POV (and they still managed to screw the pooch with Blade Cascade).

There's actually a lot more problems than blade cascade. Pretty much all the epic level stuff doesn't work. Orb of Imposition is broken. Bolstering blood is broke. Solo monsters pretty much suck. And so on.

There are still way fewer problems than 3.5, but it's not like 4E is perfect.

I do agree that the basic mechanics of 4E are pretty good. The change from divergent bonus accumulation for BaB, AC and saves to a more structured system is much better. 4E characters stay on the RNG much better than anything 3.5 ever did and this is good.

The only problem of course is actually making 4E an interesting game to play.

ludomastro · Post by **ludomastro** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:32 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Not really savvy of WotC. Are they TRYING to kill their product off?

Personally, I think it'd be really funny if 4th Edition went under but 3rd continued to chug along. Who knows, it might even happen by this time next year.

I don't think so. I think that they are victim to their own design. They even talk about open source software in the description of the old OGL They just happen to be the fork rather than the main path. Sucks for them.

-----

Koumei wrote: But Spycraft isn't D&D. No, shut up, it's not. It only does one thing well, but luckily, that's what it was made to do:

Modern-day, magic-free*, deadly "Who you are seriously doesn't matter when combat breaks out, not even your stats. Simply the size of your penis extension gun." games. That's all.

So really, we want people to return to D&D 3E. Hell, most of the bugs were fixed by F&K - if people just quit crying "But core isn't perfect!" and used that, they'd be happy. As opposed to saying "Core isn't perfect.", crying, and deciding to use 4E, which is a heap of shit and HASN'T been fixed yet.

*No monsters. No magic. No psionics. Guns only. FINAL DESTINATION.

Not trying to start a flame war, just asking: have you played Spycraft 2.0? I feel that it works very well as is. Yes, the default setting is guns blazing deadly but there are options that dial that down quite a bit. Also on the horizon is Fantasy Craft which takes the general mechanic for Spycraft and puts it in the fantasy environment.

As always YMMV. I just wanted to point out that D&D is NOT the end all / be all of fantasy gaming.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:19 pm

It's just the "start-all" of table top rpgs.

Edit: Also, don't worry about starting a flame-war with Koumei. She's a rabid aussie, she gets into fights with everyone over trivialities and has less reasoning ability or creativity than anyone that I know.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:36 pm

The gateway game, as it were?

ludomastro · Post by **ludomastro** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:38 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:It's just the "start-all" of table top rpgs.

Not exactly. The majority, sure. I got my start with TSR products but not D&D.

It was a choose-your-own-path style book set in Forgotten Realms.

Most of the folks in college gaming group started with something else. WoD, Shadowrun, West End Games, etc.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 8:18 pm

I mean in terms of which came first.

More people know about D&D, that haven't played it, than have heard about Hackmaster or Tunnels and Trolls.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:44 am

Ludo: Yes, I played it and didn't like it. Partly it was the GM, partly it was the fact that I wasn't interested in what the Spycraft rules were designed to cover. When your penis extension means more than you do, fiery death can't just be called from the skies without scheduling for an air strike ahead of time, and "I say we kick the door down and bust some ass" is never a valid option, it's not the game I want to play.

And I'm confident that the fantasy supplement will be poorly implemented ala d20 Modern's Urban Arcana, won't change the actual style of gameplay (some of the helicopters that you blow up with your anti-tank penis will be dragon-shaped, minotaurs will wander around and kill people... with assault rifles, and so forth), and that D&D 3E will just be a better game to play.

JE: If you had left it at "less reasoning capability" I'd actually have said "Yep, pretty much." As it is, I think I'll just call you a (generic insult) and tell you to (some kind of insulting directive).

Hey_I_Can_Chan · Post by **Hey_I_Can_Chan** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:52 am

But Spycraft isn't D&D. No, shut up, it's not. It only does one thing well, but luckily, that's what it was made to do:

Modern-day, magic-free*, deadly "Who you are seriously doesn't matter when combat breaks out, not even your stats. Simply the size of your penis extension gun." games. That's all.

*No monsters. No magic. No psionics. Guns only. FINAL DESTINATION.

Hell, then, I'll bite.

…the fuck is that?

Because you didn't specify:

1. If you're talking first-edition Spycraft it had A) monsters, B) magic (both ritual and spellcasting), and C) psionics.

2. If you're talking Spycraft 2.0 it has A) as many monsters as Champions, and both B) an in-process magic system, and C) a psionics system, the latter adapted from the previous version.

Further, every combat feat actually affects combat, too. Ability scores are ridiculously important, and only campaign qualities make the game as gun-heavy as you seem to think.

Yeah, so, um, STFU.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:01 am

rapa-nui wrote:3e isn't dead by any stretch, and because people have been playing with it for 10 years now, I think most people have developed a sane system of house rules.

But you could say the same thing about 2e when 3e came out. I think the real difference between the two transitions is that 3e actually tried to do some stuff that made the game more flexible (like completely open multiclassing that any character of any race could do). 4e, on the other hand, largely tries to take away cool options in order to fix the balance problems of the previoius editions (like turning multiclassing into a joke).

That said, 4e has a lot of untapped potential. The basic mechanics are solid... the classes, skills, and powers presented are simply boring and 'safe' from a game design POV (and they still managed to screw the pooch with Blade Cascade).

I agree that there are some decent ideas in 4e, albeit universally poorly executed. The problem is that the terms of the GSL don't allow you to modify the core rules to fix these problems. Therefore, there won't be any published alternate rules. Furthermore, unless the eternally forthcoming fan website license allows the posting of houserules, you'll have to keep any modifications to yourself or face WotC's legal brigade.

ludomastro · Post by **ludomastro** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:34 am

Absentminded_Wizard wrote: <SNIP>
Therefore, there won't be any published alternate rules. Furthermore, unless the eternally forthcoming fan website license allows the posting of houserules, you'll have to keep any modifications to yourself or face WotC's legal brigade.

I am far more scared of the Hasbro legal team. WotC probably only gets one junior guy.[/i]

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:03 am

Hey_I_Can_Chan wrote: 1. If you're talking first-edition Spycraft it had A) monsters, B) magic (both ritual and spellcasting), and C) psionics.

Sounds like it was 2nd edition then - I didn't see any mention of such in the core book, but if you're arguing that it was released in a supplement, then you're telling me I need to pirate buy extra crap just to hammer the game into being what I want it to be.

It was a few years ago, if that helps determine which edition it was. Some time in late 05, I think.

2. If you're talking Spycraft 2.0 it has A) as many monsters as Champions,

Lies. Again, unless we're talking some magical splat book. Protip: if I like the basic game, I'm willing to invest in supplements that will add more options. But if I don't like the basic game, I'd rather kick it to the curb than try to salvage it by buying more shit.

Unless of course Champions had 0 monsters, in which case that sounds accurate. I wouldn't know, I have not even seen the book for Champions.

Further, every combat feat actually affects combat, too. Ability scores are ridiculously important, and only campaign qualities make the game as gun-heavy as you seem to think.

What do you mean by "campaign qualities"? Combat with guns really does boil down to "If I go first, I shoot him. If that hits, he dies." Now I'm sure gun-free combat works differently and is a lot better, but because they're so effective, everyone uses them. I think the difference in classes might just boil down to "Rocket launcher", "Shotgun Bitch", "Sniper Camper Whore" and "Machine Gunner".

So really, a campaign that doesn't make that the case is essentially a campaign of gentleman's agreement not to use guns. So, presumably, a game not set in America and that isn't law enforcement or military themed. Which doesn't seem to be the angle that the game is going for - even the name suggests you're playing CIA specialists, much like the original PC game of the same name.

Yeah, so, um, STFU.

Oh come on, when have you ever known me to shut up?

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:51 am

I'm with Absentminded on the reasons that the migration to 3e from 2e was easy, while the migration from 3e to 4e will be next to impossible for me.

Giving up options is the height of retardedness. Especially when all the options are the ones that gave the game fluff and panache.

Koumei,

Welcome to the gulf of Sar.

Location: between you and me.

-JE