TNE: Setting: Suggestions

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Elennsar
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Post by Elennsar »

One good example is the TNE races thread. You don’t want centaurs and pixies because it supposedly destroys the setting. That is the wrong way to think about the issue. The right way would be to ask questions like “Is it possible to create rules for non-humanoid Pc’s without breaking game balance? Is it possible to create rules for non-humanoid Pc’s which doesn’t destroy a setting based on humanoid Pc’s?”
I'm not Frank, so I don't know his reasoning.

But I do know that there's nothing wrong with saying "centaurs and pixies being IN the setting would destroy the setting, because this is Middle-Earth and those things don't freakin' exist here!"

Do you WANT to have them in the setting? If yes, then we need to go on and decide whether they're playable, but we need to know if we're designing a world where they even EXIST before getting to that point.

You're trying to decide how to make something work before deciding if its even desirable to have the result having it would produce.

A world with various not-entirely-human races like centaurs and minotaurs is a lot different than one where even gnomes and kobolds are strange and different from humanity.
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Post by Username17 »

SoFM wrote: The right way would be to ask questions like “Is it possible to create rules for non-humanoid Pc’s without breaking game balance?"
No, that's not a helpful way of looking at things. Because the thing is that it is impossible to add anything to the game without changing game balance. Even if you're adding a group that has abilities that are already in the game you've just changed the expected ratios of encountering those abilities and thereby changed the relative value of specialized attacks and defenses. Which really means that except in the cases where one thing is literally able to do everything another is and more, there really aren't examples of things you can present that aren't possibly balanced.

Example: let's say you add in a demographic group that is all around less capable in combat, but it's good at making cakes. If you're facing Lex Luthor a lot, that might well be balanced. The answer to the question "Is it possible to create rules for dedicated pastry chefs without breaking game balance?" is yes. The answer to any question like that is yes. You just have to write the rules such that the value placed on making delicate icing flowers is sufficient to make up for your reduced ability to fight with knives.

And that's a trivial example, because literally all such examples are trivial. Centaurs have no place in winding tower staircases, cramped sewers, and crumbling ruins but you could write a setting where people didn't do any of that shit and everything was carried out Mongol style. And then Centaurs would be fine. The thing that Centaurs break is not "the game" it's "any game I want to write with." I want the option of having things take place in recognizable human architecture, and Centaurs invalidate that.

Frankly, I want castles here and there, which puts heavy constraints on what kind of ability matchups can exist. 10m/round burrowing is cool but I don't think it fits into any setting I want to write with, and so on.
SoFM wrote:Rules = Setting.
True.

The problem is that picking actual rules out of a hat until you figure out what the generated setting is will almost certainly give you a setting you don't like. You don't just select puzzle pieces from an infinite pool and stick them together to see whatever random picture that forms - because that picture is basically going to just be disjointed colors in a static pattern every time. You select a picture you want to make, and then you select the puzzle pieces that happen to fit together to make that picture.

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SphereOfFeetMan
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Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

FrankTrollman wrote:Centaurs have no place in winding tower staircases, cramped sewers, and crumbling ruins...
This is completely fucking false and illustrates exactly why you are wrong. You have made a ton of assumptions, ignoring countless possible rules solutions. For no reason.

Instead you should have asked "How can centaurs exist in a setting with winding tower staircases, cramped sewers, and crumbling ruins?" The answer is simple. Centaurs in this game are different from your preconceived notions of what they are like in Dnd land. They are more dexterous, more lithe, they have better balance, and they have very good gripping ability with their hooves. Mechanically, how is this centaur different from a human? One possible answer: They are exactly fucking identical, except one of them is a goddamned centaur!

At this point, the only reason a centaur can't be in the game is because YOU can't allow any player ever to play a tall Chinese basketball player.
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Elennsar
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Post by Elennsar »

One possible answer: They are exactly fucking identical, except one of them is a goddamned centaur!
Except that if they're exactly identical, they're NOT centaurs, which are NOT exactly identical.

This will be funny to watch. And by funny, I mean that I hope you have lots of aloe vera handy.

More seriously: Do we want centaurs? As in, whether we can make them work or not, do we WANT them?

IF "No.", then any and all discussion on how to make them usable is moot.
Last edited by Elennsar on Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by virgil »

One thing I do wonder from some people, why must TNE be this omni-fantasy toolkit? Frank's ever growing pile of rules on this forum pretty much allows for the toolkit approach to be done to a point. It's just not some ultra simple system with sockets for pre-generated modules, like some seem to want it to be.

I'm personally all for the Indian setting we contemplated way back. I'd prefer the power level to not cap out into D&D crazy-town, or even epic demigod fantasy; start out with comparatively gritty sword-and-sorcery that works its way up into high fantasy.
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Post by ckafrica »

The TNE mechanics will structure the power level and that's okay. I'm with you on S&S up to high fantasy, I know there are people who feel otherwise around here.

Which is one of the problems. If TNE goes to lvl 20 than the world wrapped around those mechanics have to show how lvl20 actors have affected over the ages. And that is a lot different than if the lvl cap is 10. It would be nice if it were possible to do both but those 2 world really can't co-exist.

But if TNE were more of a toolkit it would let us play lvl 10 cap while someone else plays lvl20 cap.

The mechanics are the frame that holds the canvas tight so we can paint our stories on it. It should be well structured or else the painting will have wrinkles. But I would like to have some freedom to paint the picture I want, and that requires a palette to mix my colors.

My concern is the way Frank is talking about it, it seems more like he's drawing out the whole picture and we're only going to be left to fill in the colors. And as much as that fine some of the time and ideal for some people and I rather it be frank than many others, I'd still rather be allowed to make many of these choices myself.
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Bigode
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Post by Bigode »

virgileso wrote:One thing I do wonder from some people, why must TNE be this omni-fantasy toolkit? Frank's ever growing pile of rules on this forum pretty much allows for the toolkit approach to be done to a point. It's just not some ultra simple system with sockets for pre-generated modules, like some seem to want it to be.

I'm personally all for the Indian setting we contemplated way back. I'd prefer the power level to not cap out into D&D crazy-town, or even epic demigod fantasy; start out with comparatively gritty sword-and-sorcery that works its way up into high fantasy.
Plus Fvcking One.

Except that we were talking about 30 levels initially, so I guess 21-30 was actually expected to be epic demigod fantasy, and I support it.

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Post by zeruslord »

Bigode wrote:Except that we were talking about 30 levels initially, so I guess 21-30 was actually expected to be epic demigod fantasy, and I support it.
This, like most of the claims they made about 4e before they released a piece of boring junk, is something we should do.
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