Rogue Bonus Feats: Not so dumb.

[Username17]

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it meets the prerequisites.

Just let that sink in for a bit.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

THat's from the MM, right? I don't think that's as cool as it looks at first. Isn't that talking about creature "bonus" feats, the ones that have a little "b" by them in the creature listing? Those can't be gained, ever (Well, polymorph ).

Anyway, the primary source rule would send you back to the PHB, which says you need the prereqs.

You have a real knack for finding odd rules.

[Username17]

Ironically, it only says that you need the prerequisites to select Fighter Bonus Feats and Wizard Bonus Feats. The standard rule, btw, is that you don't lose access to a bonus feat if you don't meet the prereqs anymore.

Other Bonus Feats, such as the Ranger Bonus Feats and Monk Bonus Feats do not require prereqs.

There is no rule that I can find that says that Rogues have to have the prereqs for a Bonus Feat taken instead of a special ability.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

The general rule for reags is that "[y]our character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, BAB, or other quality designated in order to select or use the feat."

The Monk and Ranger bonus feats specifically say you can take the bonus feat even if you don't meet the prereqs. Fighter and Wizard specifically say you must meet the prereq to take the bonus feet. Rogue says nothing.

Putting this all together, it appears that looking at the specific "bonus feat" language in the PHB classes is a wash. Except for rogue, the others specifcally say whether prereqs are needed or not. Rangers also have that weird "Treated as if you have the feat" language, so if anything it argues against prereq-free feats for rogues.

So, Rogues have to follow the general rules for feats and meet the preregs. Nothing more specific gives them any special access.

Oddly, I noticed for the first time that the human feat is "extra," not a "bonus." I've been calling it a bonus feat forever.

[Username17]

The Monk and Ranger bonus feats specifically say you can take the bonus feat even if you don't meet the prereqs.

But they don't say that you don't need to meet the prereqs to use the feat. So if we allow the statement

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, BAB, or other quality designated in order to select or use the feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gais the prerequisites.
A character can't use a feat if he or she has lost the prerequisites.

to override the statement

Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat... A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it meets the prerequisites.

then Monks and Rangers are allowed to take and not use bonus feats which they do not qualify for. I find that interpretation rather more insane than the alternate interpretation - that Rogues are allowed to take Dire Charge or Permanent Emanation as one of their special abilities.


The only statement on bonus feats that says you can use them without prerequisites also says you can take them without prerequisites. The rule that says you can't take feats in general without prerequisites also says you can't use them without prerequisites.

The Monk and Ranger can take bonus feats without prereqs, as per their text. The Fighter and Wizard cannot take their bonus feats without the prereqs, as per their text.

That text is:

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

But the crowning evidence is:

A cleric who chooses the War domain receives the Weapon Focus feat related to his deity's favored weapon as a bonus feat.

Weapon Focus has a BAB minimum of +1 - so Clerics don't normally meet the prereqs for it, so by saying nothing the character does not have to meet the prereqs for it. Otherwise the War Domain would not function, and last time I checked, we were pretty sure that it did.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

You're demanding too much of a set of rules. It's clear enough to me what they're saying, but it's at best ambiguous. The cases where you're allowed to take (use, keep, whatevah) a feat you don't have the prereqs for are specific. Monster bonus feats, monk bonus feats, ranger bonus feats. And the War Domain bonus feat.

If anything, you've found a reason to deny clerics the ability to use the bonus weapon focus feat at 1st level. Since nothing specifically overrides the general feat rule, a 1st level cleric "receives" a feat it can't use yet. The domain language overrides the "may not take" language of the general rule, but not the "may not use" language.

[Username17]

So when I ask that something which says "bonus feat" to follow the rules laid down for "bonus feats" unless and until it says something different, I'm asking too much?

There are general rules for bonus feats - they include the fact that you don't need the prereqs. Because of this fact, most bonus feats are restricted in some way. For example, Pixie bonus feats are restricted to "Dodge" and Monk Bonus feats are restricted to a small list (as are Epic Classes).

Some bonus feats are further restricted in that you have to qualify for them before you can take them - and these bonus feats are clearly labeled as such. It's pretty much just the Fighter and the Wizard as long as you are going Core.

But you have to do a lot of hand waiving to make the bonus feat rules not apply to the Rogue Bonus Feats. Namely, you have to make up the rule "this bonus feat is just like a normal feat and does not follow the rules of bonus feats." I can see why you might do that - but there's absolutely no way that you can "clearly" get that impression from what is actually said. That's just you making stuff up.

The domain language overrides the "may not take" language of the general rule, but not the "may not use" language.

This line of reasoning is cacca. The override of the "may not use" is general to all bonus feats. Otherwise Rangers and Monks wouldn't be able to use their bonus feats either, they don't have a specific override of the "may not use" rule - they use bonus feats so they don't need one.

-Username17

[Mole_2]

1079502149[/unixtime]]

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it meets the prerequisites.

Just let that sink in for a bit.

-Username17

A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it meets the prerequisites.

Does NOT imply :

A creature can have a feat that is a bonus feat without meeting the prerequisites.

The fact that they can, and do, is not a product of the logical meaning of originally quoted text.

One can speculate as to what WOTC were trying to say in such a poorly constructed sentence, but its literal meaning states that for a non bonus feat you need to meet the pre-reqs. Nothing more.

[Username17]

One can speculate as to what WOTC were trying to say in such a poorly constructed sentence, but its literal meaning states that for a non bonus feat you need to meet the pre-reqs. Nothing more.

That's also sufficient, however, as the rules actually need to specify needing the prerequisites before they would be required.

Since there is no general rule that states that bonus feats require prereqs, you don't need them unless a specific rule relating to the method you aquire the bonus feat requires it.

-Username17

[Mole_2]

Surely in the absence of a specific rule for bonus feats you revert to the general rule for feats ?

Namely that you have to meet the pre-reqs.


However, going along with your thought experiment :

Have you noticed that all epic feats gained from class levels (as opposed to character levels) are listed in the srd as being bonus feats ?

[Username17]

Surely in the absence of a specific rule for bonus feats you revert to the general rule for feats ?

Which is why Monks can'tactually use their bonus feats, just have them for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes? I don't think so.

Have you noticed that all epic feats gained from class levels (as opposed to character levels) are listed in the srd as being bonus feats ?

O sure did. I also noticed that they were restricted to a relatively short list for each class. But it does mean that a Sorcerer can get Automatic Quicken Spell by 24th level. It still only applies to 3rd level spells - but it beats the alternatives.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

There's no way to get around the fact that the "bonus feats" language you're using refers to monster bonus feats. It's kinda interesting go and look at what other feats are called, but there isn't a single rule that allows a PC, without more specific exceptions, to take and use a feat that they don't meet the prereqs for.

[Username17]

Sure there is. Come off it.

It refers to creatures - which includes monsters and normal characters.

I mean, if it said objects, or something else which didn't include normal characters, you'd have a point - but it doesn't and you don't.

-Username17

[fbmf]

1079648389[/unixtime]]There's no way to get around the fact that the "bonus feats" language you're using refers to monster bonus feats. It's kinda interesting go and look at what other feats are called, but there isn't a single rule that allows a PC, without more specific exceptions, to take and use a feat that they don't meet the prereqs for.

But all of the PC races are in the Monster Manual. Are you saying that if the DM makes up a high level rogue as an NPC the NPC gets the feats, but a player maikng a PC does not?

Game On,
fbmf

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I think that the logical thing is, that in the case of rogues, they meant to add "that she meets the prerequisistes for" in there, but they forgot to put that in.

It doesn't say that, and due to the total lack of needed errata (There was some, but it sucked), I'm sure it'll stay like that for a long time.

[The_Hanged_Man]

1079649003[/unixtime]]Sure there is. Come off it.

It refers to creatures - which includes monsters and normal characters.

I mean, if it said objects, or something else which didn't include normal characters, you'd have a point - but it doesn't and you don't.

-Username17

It says "monster bonus feats." Those are the feats that have a litte "b" by them. You can't get those through advancement or through a class (unless it's a weird one that changes your type). You can be a "normal character" and have monster bonus feats - if the description says you have them. You just can't acquire them. Again, unless you're a weird class. Or Polymorph and other shapechanging, I guess.

[The_Hanged_Man]

1079716506[/unixtime]]

1079648389[/unixtime]]There's no way to get around the fact that the "bonus feats" language you're using refers to monster bonus feats. It's kinda interesting go and look at what other feats are called, but there isn't a single rule that allows a PC, without more specific exceptions, to take and use a feat that they don't meet the prereqs for.

But all of the PC races are in the Monster Manual. Are you saying that if the DM makes up a high level rogue as an NPC the NPC gets the feats, but a player maikng a PC does not?

Game On,
fbmf

No, I'm saying that if a PC chooses a race that has monster bonus feats, they take and use those feats regardless of whether they otherwise meet the prereqs.
Otherwise, the PC can't.

Look at the Pixie It's description says: Dodge (superscript B). That's a Monster Bonus Feat.

Say you for some reason make a Pixie PC that only has a dex of 12. You can still take and use the Dodge feat, b/c it's a monster bonus feat that you don't meet the prereqs for. In fact, you just do - no choice about it.

Now say you want to be a Pixie Fighter 3 and take Mobility. Your SOL - you don't meet the prereqs, and Mobility isn't a monster bonus feat. The DM couldn't make that character a NPC w/ Mobility, either. Well, the DM could, of course - but wouldn't be following the rules.

The language in the MM is very clear, it's only talking about monster bonus feats. Those are defined.

[Crissa]

Honestly, Frank and the Count's readings are the simplest - that Bonus Feats are just that: Bonus and you get them and get to use them when you get them, not when the arbitrary Feat rules apply.

Really, like the Count said, it's a smaller change to say there's a missing line in the Rogue's description than to change the whole scheme of Feats and Bonuses.

Sheesh. And Frank's houserules are even more strict and still follow his reading.

-Crissa

[User3]

It says "monster bonus feats."

Where? I don't think there's such a thing as a Monster Bonus Feat. I've never heard of it. Here's the text Frank is referring to:

Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.

No mention of monsters. It's just a bonus feat. It's too bad they didn't specify prerequisites for Rogue bonus feats or call these Racial Bonus Feats or something. They didn't though, they're all bonus feats, so I don't see how Frank's interpretation isn't true.

I could be wrong though, so can you quote for me where the Monster Bonus Feat is defined?

[The_Hanged_Man]

I don't know that "simple" is the issue. I also doubt that they forgot any language from the Rogue rules (I actually typed Rouge here; close call. ) I think if anything they forgot to re-emphasize that the language in the MM applies only to monster bonus feats.

It's actually very simple, except for the line from teh MM. The rule is, you need to meet the prereqs to use a feat. The exceptions? Monks and Rangers, for certain bonus feats.

The MM has a special rule that applies to all monster bonus feats. The creature can use it regardless of prereqs. That's actually very simple, and saves a lot of space - if you apply the rule where it obviously applies, to monster bonus feats. If you start applying it everywhere, there's now complications, and every bonus feat has to specifically say whether it requires prereqs or not.

Now, it'd be simpler if the rules were more consistent in language, but it's hard to keep track of everything from every book.

[Username17]

The MM has a special rule that applies to all monster bonus feats.

But elves are monsters, technically.

So your 10th level Elven Rogue is a monster who has a bonus feat. That's a monster bonus feat at that point.

If you start applying it everywhere, there's now complications, and every bonus feat has to specifically say whether it requires prereqs or not.

No you don't. Bonus feats inherently don't require text to say whether they require prereqs - because there is a baseline. The baseline is that they don't. Which is why the War Domain functions, which is why Monks can actually use their feats - the whole bag.

That Rogues can get a feat at tenth level is a natural casualty of that - but since before they never used that ability, and I haven't even been able to find a feat that breaks the game when used that way - I don't see the problem.

-Username17

[User3]

Humans get a bonus feat too, don't they? So can a first level human character choose something like Spring Attack for his bonus feat?

[Username17]

Humans get a bonus feat too, don't they? So can a first level human character choose something like Spring Attack for his bonus feat?

No. Humans get an "extra feat", not a "bonus feat". That's different.

Most bonus feats are restricted to a limited selection. Fighters, for example, can only select feats marked as a "Fighter Feat" which they would otherwise qualify for.

So to be able to take anything, you need an unrestricted bonus feat. Not a restricted bonus feat, and not an extra feat.

-Username17

[User3]

Not quite so good but more clearly worded: A 4th level Acolyte of the skin can take any feat that they qualify for. Making it a decent way for character with a mis-mash or PrCs to pick up neccesary epic feats.

-Catharz Godsfoot

[MrWaeseL]

Where is the second quote from? The MM?