Strengths and Weaknesses of Different Systems?

[Calibron]

In order to take the Transformers: Beastwars RPG to the mechanical level I need to know more about the pros and cons of different resolution mechanics and character generation methods. I've really only ever had experience with D&D, and like 2 sessions of NWoD Vampire, I'd very much appreciate any of your far more informed opinions.

I'm already leaning more toward a point generation system with loose class-like archetypes and either a d6 system or a "buy your dice" system with variable TNs, but I have literally no idea if these are good ideas or not.

[Josh_Kablack]

Well starting from the very abstract, a reasonable discussion of how to evaluate game systems can be found here:

How's this for thread necromancy?

[Calibron]

Well, thank you for your contribution, but that was completely unhelpful.

[Username17]

For a game to scale well, it has to be easy to add something to both sides of the difficulty equation. So for example rolling NdX and adding a modifier and subtracting another modifier is an easy system to add to skill and difficulty to scale the system up to a bigger thing. You can just add "over nine thousand" to the bonus and the penalty and you're back where you started from. Rolling NdX and checking how many dice came up Y scales pretty well since you can increase the number of required hits by A and add A*X/(1+X-Y) dice and be roughly where you started.

Hit Points make it easier to define how long battles are going to take and harder to escape those definitions. Hit points also don't really scale super well. Toughness rolls scale a lot better and are more uncertain.

• What this means is that when you hit someone with a "very damaging attack" in a hit point system that has any real chance of one-shotting them, that if you hit them twice they are going down. And possibly exploding, depending upon your system for handling over-damage.
  On the flip side, a character who has any chance of making a toughness test where he doesn't go down could potentially make that test over and over again throughout a battle.

Modifiers push things off the RNG much more easily than do rerolls. Even at the limit of infinite rerolls, a single die still has a 1/X chance of matching the results. A die modifier of +X cannot be overcome no matter what numbers are actually rolled. Rerolls take longer to adjudicate, but this can be overcome by formalizing them to a roll-and-keep system or by making an analogous system such as rolling multiple dice against a fixed Target Number.

When you have a die roll vs. a fixed TN, then having that die roll be multiple dice added together creates a bell curve which makes chances of success or failure very low just before they get pushed off the RNG altogether. If you roll just a single die, then your last chance is relatively large and every modifier means exactly the same thing no matter what the original chances were.

• For example: on 3d6 your last chance is less than 1/2 of 1% while on a d20 your last chance is 5%. On a d20 a +1 means +5%. On 3d6, a +1 can mean +1.39% or it can mean +13% depending upon where you were to begin with.

Die rolling systems can be good for different things. But die rolling systems that are either inconsistent or unclear are generally speaking bad. So for example, the dice system of nWoD is fine in concept (there are specifics that are dumb beyond belief but we can toss those with the mathematically fitting). You roll N d10s and then if you get an 8 or 9 you get a hit and if you roll a 10 you get a hit and an extra die - thus you average 1 hit for every 3 dice. This scales nicely, and if they didn't insist on mucking up the system with weird abilities that modify the meaning of dice rolls it would all work fine. You increase the number of required hits for success by 1, and the average number of dice required to get that success is increased by 3. On the flip side, the dice mechanic of Savage Worlds is just bad. You roll a number of variable sided dice looking for specific results on each die, and difficulty modifiers change what number you're looking for and different skill levels change what you're rolling both in terms of numbers of dice and in terms of the number of sides on those dice. Now obviously, that's really complicated to run statistics for. And there are certain target numbers where having a "worse" die actually increases your odds because dice explode on their highest roll. A d4 gets an extra die 1/4th of the time, while a d6 gets an extra die only 1/6th of the time. So a d4 hits a TN of 6 9 times in 48, while a d6 only hits 8 times in 48 - despite the fact that the d6 is supposedly better, and indeed for other TNs actually is.

Is that the kind of analysis you were looking for?

[Calibron]

I was hoping for, but not expecting, in depth analysis of every moderately well known system around.

I think I can manage with what you've given me. Thank you, very much.

I think a Storyteller style resolution mechanic would fit best. With toughness saves that drop you down a track of three or four worsening conditions when failed instead of hp or hit boxes. And definitely a build point character generation system, probably with one pool for purchasing attributes and other basic necessities, one for picking abilities available to your two roles along with the abilities open to everyone(with a minimum amount of points going to abilities made available by your primary role), and a third pool that can be used on anything.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I seriously recommend checking out Silhouette.

[ludomastro]

I was hoping for, but not expecting, in depth analysis of every moderately well known system around.

Well, glad to see that you didn't expect that as the answer. Although to be honest, I would love to see that analysis as well.

From a completely subjective viewpoint, I prefer multiple dice seeking a target number but I just enjoy rolling handfuls of dice.

Perhaps you can give us an idea of what you would like to see from the mechanics?

[Maxus]

I'll probably get a lot of this wrong, but I asked a WoD-playing friend about the system, to try to get *some* info for you.

To quote:

A player rolls a pool of dice equal to his attributes added to his skills, usually. Attributes (like strength) has a rating between 1 and 5, same with skills. A good pool for an average test is about 5 dice or so, so you roll 5d10.

Results of 8, 9, or 10 are considered "hits". Normally you need only one hit to have a successful skill test. (10's are rolled again for a chance to get another hit from it.)

If there is a penalty (Such as the enemy's static defense score, or darkness, this is taken out of the original pool.

This means that there's only one roll to hit somebody in combat, and only one roll to resolve most tests, almost always requiring only one success to pass.

And then I asked about skills and combat, and got this:

Firearms is a skill just like Athletics and Stealth. To resolve a round of combat you roll your Dex + Firearms pool. (Say 5.) at a penalty of the enemy's defense. (Say 2.) so you roll 3 dice. Your gun adds 2. Out of that you come up with two "Hits.", you deal two levels of damage to the enemy. (Who will usually have 7.)

Likewise, Melee weapons are a skill and Brawling is a skill. Those are basically the three combat skills.

Me (checking): Adds two to each roll's result?

Your gun adds 2 dice to your pool. Remember that your action is almost always resolved with one roll in this game, that's the concept. If your Dex is 3, Firearms 2, and your gun has a rating of 2. Your pool is 7. Your enemy's defense is 2, so your pool is 5, that's what you roll.

The number of hits becomes damage.

Sounds flexible to me.

Edit: If you want, I'll ask more.

[Username17]

nWoD Really falls down in combat. As you can see from that description, having two guys who are half as good have the same round-by-round damage output as one guy who is twice as good. Enough children throwing tennis balls will one-shot the most powerful of werewolf warriors. More importantly still, there's no reason to do combat at all because a success in combat does "a damage level" and a success in mind control powers ends combat straight off. Also they periodically sneak in mechanics that break the dice system by for example adding bonus dice for rolling 9s or even 8s or causing 1s to subtract hits and such. Also their definition of extraordinary success breaks with opposed tests: you get an extraordinary success if you get 5 hits and succeed, so high level characters opposing each othercan only extraordinarily succeed or fail outright.

A roughly equivalent set of mechanics can be found in Warp Cult, which now that the holidays are over I should get back to working on. You'll note that rolling a 5 or 6 on a d6 provides the same average hits as rolling an 8,9,or 10 on a d10 and getting an extra die on a 10.

-Username17

[Koumei]

Warp Cult, which now that the holidays are over I should get back to working on.

This is the equal best news I have heard today. The other being the arrival of my Repressor (for repressing heretics). Also, I'm vaguely getting an IRC group together (vague measurements being used) for Warp Cult (specifically, the beginning stages of a tyranid invasion: Gene Cult). I'll let you know how it plays out, for actual playtesting and stuff.

[Username17]

Yeah, I took the holidays off to make a board game:





Now back to regularly scheduled writing and ranting.

-Username17

[IGTN]

That looks cool. What is it?

[Username17]

That looks cool. What is it?

Shadowrun Horror, it's a full conversion of the Arkham Horror rules to do 2070s Los Angeles. The idea is that you play a Shadowrunner, who is represented by a runner card like this one:


And for your own personal reasons you are working towards some shadowy mercenary gig that's supposed to be worth a million Nuyen. And while you're doing that, you find out that the city is being threatened by some impnding calamity. And that threat is represented by a Threat card, like this one:

And while you're at it you can get various clues and equipment. And the equipment comes in its own decks, such that the cards look something like this:


And sometimes things oppose you. Problems arise all over town (at the locations on the board with the little red diamonds), and when that happens, you draw up Enemy tokens to block your path. And they often look something like this:


And sometimes you have encounters, and then you draw encounter cards from the appropriate neighborhood deck (the neighborhoods are color coded). And those cards look like this:


And sometimes when you get the right kind of encounter, someone joins your team. And those cards look like this:


-Username17

[The Lunatic Fringe]

Does it have an equivalent mechanism to AH gates? If not, how do the players win?

[Username17]

Does it have an equivalent mechanism to AH gates? If not, how do the players win?

Yeah, when the Karma card comes up, it opens a "problem" on one of the unstable locations. You draw a problem token, which corresponds to one of the available problem types:

• Astral Rift (slash)
• Corporate Security (star)
• Gang War (square)
• Mafia (hexagon)
• System Failure (Plus)
• Triad (triangle)
• Vory (diamond)
• Yakuza (Circle)

and you draw an enemy to go with it (2 enemies in 5+ player games). Now here's where it's different: you don't leave the board when you go to a location and have Problem encounters, and problems don't have gate modifiers. You stay right there and have an encounter out of the problem deck. Each problem type is represented on precisely 40% of the available cards for its colors, and the rest of the time you get an "other" encounter. The problem specific encounters all have a problem solving chance at the end of the encounter. So you have a 40% chance of having a shot at solving the problem each turn. What test will be available to solve the problem varies a lot, so I suggest going after problems with at least 8 clues in a pile. When you solve the problem, you take the problem trophy and then you can spend 5 clues to "Expose" the event, which keeps problems from cropping up in that location and moves you closer to winning.

Also, you may notice the things that are a lot like Rift markers from Kingsport on the board. Those are a lot like Kingsport Rift Markers - they are the Los Angeles Riots. Based on the movement that crops up on the Karma card each turn you draw a tension marker and put it on the board to fill up a Riot track. Each of the Tension markers has the picture and initials of a location. You go there and have an encounter, you remove the marker. If enough markers fill up the track, the Riot breaks out and starts coughing up enemies and even raising the Terror level.

-Username17

[cthulhu]

Super cool - are you publishing it? I like Arkham horror but it is one of the easiest games going so I'd like to play with a different twist.

[Talisman]

Frank makes games the way other people make dandruff.
I'm jealous.

[The Lunatic Fringe]

Would you consider placing the files on the internet?

[Shoggoth]

Frank, that is a beautiful design/conversion job.

Just stunning.

[Username17]

It is my intention to continue tinkering with it until I go back to the United States in July, and print it out there. Once I give it a few run throughs, I'll make any final revisions I feel are necessary and then I'll put it up on the internets somewhere. I don't actually have any web hosting for it at this time, and it's not yet in a publishable state in any case.

But it could easily be released as a print-it-yourself in August. That's a time frame based on the hard realities of plane flights.

-Username17

[Calibron]

Frank Trollman: Further proof that all men are not created equal.

Anyway, here's what I've got so far.

The resolution mechanic is similar to that used in Storyteller you roll a number of d10s and gain successes whenever you get an 8, 9, or 10, and getting a 10 gives you a bonus die to roll. However, there’s no more of that 1 success=you win stuff; no, each task has a Difficulty Class that you need to match or exceed with your successes.

Combat Stats:

Hit: Number of D10s you get to roll to try to meet the DC to hit your target. Can be lowered by terrain and other conditions.
Dodge: A static value that sets the DC for an enemy’s Hit roll.
Toughness: Number of D10s you get to roll when hit by an attack, if your successes match or exceed the damage of the attack, damage is a pre-set value tied to the attack used, you aren’t knocked down a notch on the damage track. You may have bonuses to your toughness score for resisting different kinds of attacks. Your toughness score will also be used to resist certain special abilities.
Will: Number of D10s you get to roll when hit by certain special abilities.
Attacks: The different attacks that you know. Attack stats include:
• Type: Melee, Area, Projectile, Beam, may condense Projectile and Beam types to Ranged or something.
• Range: Melee, Short, Medium, Long, the game is going to have a movement system like that discussed most recently for TNE; more on this when I have a more concrete understanding.
• Damage: the number of successes you need on your toughness roll to not be hurt by the attack.
Movement: How many zones(melee, short, medium, long) you can traverse in one turn, avoiding entering within a certain range of another character or characters costs extra movement.
Initiative: Number of D10s you roll. Ties go to the one with the highest Agility score, further ties go to the one with the highest Mind score, further ties are re-rolled until there is no longer a tie.

You will be able to Ready actions and Delay just like in D&D.

For Combat Actions I’m thinking of emulating Warp Cult and giving 2 Primary Actions per round.

Basic attributes are going to be something like
Body: Strength and toughness, sets the basic damage of your melee attacks and your toughness score. Your Body score is tied to the maximum damage you can have on an attack. Need a certain minimum for a number of abilities.
Agility: Sets your basic Dodge and Initiative scores. Need a certain minimum for a number of abilities.
Accuracy: Sets your basic Hit score. Need a certain minimum for a number of abilities.
Mind: Sets your basic Will and Initiative scores. Need a certain minimum for a number of abilities.
Size: Larger size lowers your Dodge score and Stealth score and maybe some other things, but gives you multiple points of Body for less then they would normally cost and increases the maximum score you can have in Body. Certain abilities can only be bought if you are large or small enough.

May add an Edge stat, may not.

Skills probably won’t get a bonus from high attributes.

The character generation and improvement will be Build Point based.

Your primary role will give you discounts on different things as well as giving you access to abilities; your secondary role will give you lesser discounts and may not give you access to all the abilities that it would if it were primary.

There’s going to be an infiltration mini-game and an exploration mini-game, or perhaps the infiltration mini-game will just be the exploration mini-game with a lot more stealth checks.