Spellcasting and fatigue

[Username17]

Something that might help you.

-Username17

[Naszir]

So just increasing the casting time of all spells may be the simplest way to go? Though it will suck for players who play spell casters to have to basically sit around for a couple of rounds of combat and do nothing but prepare to cast a spell. And then they may not even be able to get it off because they get interrupted.

[Murtak]

So just increasing the casting time of all spells may be the simplest way to go? Though it will suck for players who play spell casters to have to basically sit around for a couple of rounds of combat and do nothing but prepare to cast a spell. And then they may not even be able to get it off because they get interrupted.

Example solution:

Holy Flame of insert-god-here
1 round: 5d6 damage to all enemies in 10 foot
2 rounds: add 5d6 damage, add blinded on a failed save
3 rounds: add 5d6 damage, add stunned on a failed save

When you get interrupted you still get the effects of any actions you completed to cast the spell.

[Naszir]

So just increasing the casting time of all spells may be the simplest way to go? Though it will suck for players who play spell casters to have to basically sit around for a couple of rounds of combat and do nothing but prepare to cast a spell. And then they may not even be able to get it off because they get interrupted.

Example solution:

Holy Flame of insert-god-here
1 round: 5d6 damage to all enemies in 10 foot
2 rounds: add 5d6 damage, add blinded on a failed save
3 rounds: add 5d6 damage, add stunned on a failed save

When you get interrupted you still get the effects of any actions you completed to cast the spell.

Hmm, I like the concept but it involves rewritting spells. Which I'm not going to do.

[Bigode]

Without spell rewriting, you can't go anywhere other than per-day limitations. I.e. as-is or more restricted, but by simply handing less uses - other things just won't work on teleport and major creation. Unless you'd be willing to talk about not rewriting properly but banning several spells - but I'm afraid the result would be 4E magic in that case.

[Username17]

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, if you want a different magic system, you need to write a different magic system. There isn't a magic wand you can wave that will transform the current magic system into a different one.

-Username17

[Bigode]

He could fiddle with spell levels (i.e. raise lots of stuff) and only leave in the game what'd be fine at-will at some level. But that way lies 4E - well, actually something more interesting than daily powers being daily often "because they deal more damage", but only marginally, I guess. That said, it's what some people want (especially given that 4E itself managed to find fandom ) ...

[Naszir]

Well I will just say that flat out sucks. I may beat my head against this wall for a little longer but that is just because I am stubborn.

I still feel like there has to be a way to make a spell-caster relevant in every encounter without making him overpowered and without having to rewrite the whole system.

[virgil]

Warlocks with a better selection?

[Bigode]

They are relevant at each of 4 daily encounters (even at level 1 because back then, having 2 hands and a crossbow's basically enough). If you intend to assume full CLW wand use, and have craploads of encounters, maybe just multiplying spell slots (and that if you want truly enormous amounts)?

EDIT: though let's not pretend I didn't attempt something like that myself. Also, this one. Hilariously, neither seems to actually be Vancian, unlike this one - of course not what you're looking for (mentioned for irony's sake, but likely better than the other 2 ...).

[Naszir]

Well, I would rather make their magic use relevant in every encounter.

[Naszir]

What about limiting a spellcasters ability to cast spells per encounter instead of per day. Of course you would throw out the daily spell progression table because the per encounter spell table would have to have far fewer spells and steeper progression to it. (I know, I know, shades of 4e.)

What would be the difference between this and the 5 minute workday? In this case you don't have to deal with a player saying "hey, I blew my load, let's rest so I can get my best spells back."

You still may end up with the spell caster trying to go nova at the beginning of the round. But if the DM is smart enough to make encounters happen in waves and then vary when the tough part of the encounter happens it should make the spell caster question when to go nova.

[Username17]

Many spells, such as Greater Magic Weapon and Wall of Stone, have effects that persist far beyond the time frame of any encounter. In short, people will just TFC as many of those spells as they know, and then move on.

Seriously. No magic wand.

-Username17

[Bigode]

Man, I'm not referencing 4E because it uses per-encounter mechanics - despite not being particularly interested in them, I use ToB, for example. I'm referencing 4E because it has absolutely no setting-affecting effect, and that's what you're gonna have to do implement "per-encounter casting". If it wasn't obvious before, how does your definition of encounter limits use of object creation, divination, teleportation, and so on? Hint: unless and until either those are rewritten, or the definition of encounter gets weirdly rewritten into something way harsher than "needs short rest to recharge", much less the non-definitions late 3.x used, it doesn't. As for "every encounter": they already were relevant in every encounter the rules prescripted - wanna prescript more encounters? Maybe just give more slots if actually needed.

[Naszir]

Man, I'm not referencing 4E because it uses per-encounter mechanics - despite not being particularly interested in them, I use ToB, for example. I'm referencing 4E because it has absolutely no setting-affecting effect, and that's what you're gonna have to do implement "per-encounter casting". If it wasn't obvious before, how does your definition of encounter limits use of object creation, divination, teleportation, and so on? Hint: unless and until either those are rewritten, or the definition of encounter gets weirdly rewritten into something way harsher than "needs short rest to recharge", much less the non-definitions late 3.x used, it doesn't. As for "every encounter": they already were relevant in every encounter the rules prescripted - wanna prescript more encounters? Maybe just give more slots if actually needed.

How are they relevant every encounter when people run around screaming "5-minute workday!!!" Hasn't it been here that I've read that if playing a spellcaster players will just unload their best spells in the first round of the first encounter and then call for the party to rest?

[Bigode]

How are they relevant every encounter when people run around screaming "5-minute workday!!!" Hasn't it been here that I've read that if playing a spellcaster players will just unload their best spells in the first round of the first encounter and then call for the party to rest?

They might do that if having the time to spare, but won't actually become underpowered if they don't. And I do think the 5-min workday issue's being wildly exaggerated despite actually existing.

[Kaelik]

How are they relevant every encounter when people run around screaming "5-minute workday!!!" Hasn't it been here that I've read that if playing a spellcaster players will just unload their best spells in the first round of the first encounter and then call for the party to rest?

No, that's if you set the limits differently then they are now, either by reducing spells or adding a stupid fatigue system.

What people actually do, right now, in 3.5. Is they use one of their best spells, and it makes the encounter horrendously easier or ends it. Then they next round, they either use a spell one level lower, or another best spell, then the encounter is over.

Since a level 13 Wizard has 4-5 7th level spells, he can easily use one per encounter, and then mop up with 6th level spells which are also sort of level appropriate, thanks to Sorcerers.

So if he faces four CR 13 encounters that day, he deals with them only using 6-7th level slots. Seriously, just that. And he doesn't run out at all.

5 minute work day is what happens to incompetent casters, and casters under arbitrary fatigue systems.

[Naszir]

Time to look at E6 and ban meta-magic feats then.

[baduin]

True20 uses a fatigue system. As usually for True20, it is interesting, but far from perfect.

[Bigode]

Ban free metamagic and the high adjustments (for no reason other than people being actually unable to use them) - there's no particular reason AFAICT to ban (paid for) Silent/Still spell, for example. But yeah, while True20 has lots of flaws, you'd have embraced D&D magic's flaws too, so at least True20 likely gets you way closer to the mark.

[Talisman]

This is an idea I've hd for a while; I'm going to throw it out so you can all tell me how bad it is*.

I'm thinking of this for spontaneous casters only, to model the "more magic but fewer spells known" thing which doesn't actually work by RAW. Essentially, whenever a sorcerer casts spells, he can regain them with a short rest (say, 5 minutes) - except for the highest-level spell slot expended.

For example, a sorcerer casts two 3rd and a 2nd-level spell. He rests for 5 minutes are regains the 2nd and one of the 3rd-level slots, but he can't regain the last 3rd-level slot until he has 8 hours of sleep.

Later that day, he encounters a minor threat he doesn't want to waste the big guns on. He uses three 1st-level slots on it. With 5 minutes of rest, he then regains two of those slots.

And so on. Using this system may involve paring down the number of spells per day a sorcerer gets (since they'll effectively be "spells per encounter"), but this is the basic concept.


*If you do so, I would appreciate hearing why it's bad as well.

[Username17]

So wait, the more you spam between five minute rests, the more you get back with a five minute rest?

Hello TFC! Medium length buffs for the win!

-Username17

[Murtak]

No matter what you do, you can not fix DnD spellcasting without adjusting at least some spells individually, simply because spells of the same spell level vary wildly in power. Any global adjustment that makes Polymorph playable will render Shout into an ability that is actually detrimental to yourself and any system that makes Meteor Swarm a good pick will destroy your setting if a player ever decides to pick up Gate.

So, given that you will have to work over the entire spell list anyways - if you want a relatively simple task try this:
- Some spells are plain broken. Get rid of them.
- Balance everything else with cast times. 2 standard actions, 3 actions, whatever it takes. Anything that is not balanceable with more actions to cast is probably something you never want to see in game anyways.