You know what sucks about RPGs' rules?

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:47 pm

Judging__Eagle wrote:2) The DM is playing Monsters or NPCs. The DM is NOT playing characters that they enjoy or will get attached to. Any character that the DM gets attached to must immediately be kidnapped, killed, vanish etc. NO FUCKING EXCEPTIONS EVER.

Bullcrap.

There's nothing inherently wrong with GMPCs or special NPCs or any of the other NPC variants that apparently make players feel small in the pants. Really, there isn't. NPCs exist in the world, and some of them can and will do interesting things.

The problem arises when a dick GM does dick stuff with NPCs. This is a totally separate problem. It can occur even if no NPC lives more than 1 session.

There's nothing wrong with GMPCs or reocurring NPCs - heck, reocurring NPCs make the world more fun and believeable.

The only time that an NPC can be attached to a character is if the character will only help the PCs, and in a "I'm assisting you in acheiveing your goals" sort of way, not "I'm going to save the world now for you guys" sort of way. Combat NPCs that are more powerful than PCs, or spellcasters that are higher level are bad. A healer that is higher level than the PCs is much more acceptable for an NPC.

Agreed.

3) Never fucking shove your story down the player's throats.

Good.

Your story is shit. Your story is shit. Your. Story. Is. Shit.

Do you get me?

Do you fucking get me?

You are a piece of shit writer and you cannot get any of your shitty ideas published. Therefore you should not try to ram down your stupid story down the player's throats. At most, you should present a setting and have the players interact with it, the setting shouldn't force the players around unless the players have actually been doing things for a long time and actually affecting your setting in such a way that something will now seek them out.

Bullcrap, again.

Gaming is shared storytelling. While the GM should not force his story down the players' throats, neither should he lie there like a doormat and exist only to roll the dice for the orcs. He's there to set up the framework of a story for the players to explore and fill out...but without the GM, you've got a lifeless, passive world.

I wonder, is a mystery adventure "railroading"? Because it certainly requires a lot more GM investment than you describe. An adventure where the NPCs have goals and dreams? Where - gasp - things happen even if the PCs aren't there to make them happen?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:53 pm

Talisman, I can sort of see where J_E is coming from.

Detailed NPCs and GMPCs continually run the risk of violating the law of conservation of detail. If the players don't give a care about the detailed background of the vampire princess and want to move on, the DM must choose from eithering making the PCs care (via plot hooks, catching their interest, or blatant railroading), salvage what they can and re-use it for another NPC, or just give up on what they've written altogether.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 11:13 pm

Fair enough - though I do think he overstates his case.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:35 am

If you aren't an anthropomorphic creature that can take on dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands, of different fuzzy animal forms or birds, you aren't one of these people.

Wait, what the fuck? Do I know you?

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:32 am

There are players though that expect and demand to be shoved into a story. Seriously. Unless kicked, shoved and dragged into an adventure they'll do nothing. And they'll tell you to just drag their characters into a story.

Thymos · Post by **Thymos** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:38 pm

I can vouch for Fuchs. I had a group like this and it bugged the hell out of me.

I gave them too many possible plot hooks to search out so they kinda sat there and asked me what they are supposed to do.

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:23 pm

... I like a certain degree of being led by the DM ...

<_<
>_>

... When the DM has a specific series of events or NPCs he wants to use, that is ...

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:52 pm

Roy wrote:
If you aren't an anthropomorphic creature that can take on dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands, of different fuzzy animal forms or birds, you aren't one of these people.
Wait, what the fuck? Do I know you?

It's an inside joke.

Unless you somehow fit into that list of qualifiers?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:53 pm

He's a kitsune.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:03 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:He's a kitsune.

Someone gets it.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:12 pm

Thymos wrote:I can vouch for Fuchs. I had a group like this and it bugged the hell out of me.

I gave them too many possible plot hooks to search out so they kinda sat there and asked me what they are supposed to do.

My own group is... sometimes like this. Which sometimes pisses me off.

My job as DM isn't to have a story premade that I will tell the group; when I want to tell a story, I go and just tell a story, not pretend to play a game when I'm really just storytelling.

The one or two people that have characters with goals are actually my favorite members, since I don't have to lead them by the nose, they have goals and I can then set up adventures for their characters pursue them.

If not, I seriously think up a theme and tell the players to give me a list of d% rolls.

The next X amount of encounters that follow are based off of those rolls.

Of course... I have some limits as to what can show up when the group is in an outer plane, or if I want an Undead or specific type of monster themed area, but the randomness allows me to focus on the game and not wasting my time on BS that won't see gameplay.

... somedays all I need is a bunch of rooms and dice rolls to populate them. The funny thing is that the group does piles more RP with this setup than with the DMs that use "pre-written" WoTC adventures or the WoD GMs that write up the whole adventure in advance.

I actually like to really rub it in their faces about how the time that the Raccoon Druid and the Gargoyle Paladin bought a Celestial Charger Unicorn's freedom from a Dretch Slave-master while they were crossing a city in Hades. The Unicorn ended up following them until it could find its companion (this part I added in, something about a paladin, but the encounter seriously said 1 CR X, and 1 CR Y monster, and I checked what fit in the back of the monster manual).

Or how the Raccoon had a really good time eating stuff that the Nalfeshnee mayor was serving for snacks. The gargoyle decided to not eat the rotting meat and garbage on the stone table.

Sometimes the encounters don't turn into RP, but that's expected, if not the group would engage in no combat, and we can't have that...wait, it would be fine with my group. I was handing out XP based on encounters beaten by any means, even if it meant avoiding something that you noticed (not noticing and avoiding doesn't earn xp though imo). So bribing a devil sheriff gives the same reward as killing him, then having to potentially fight the city guard.

That and I guess I don't like having to fight all the time. It's tedious if it's your only option ever. Of course, when it is the only option, my characters tend to simply not give a shit and kill every single enemy possible. Even the ones that surrender. I hate recurring enemies. I guess I'm an extremist pacisfist/militant? Something along the lines that war is the last option, but if it happens, make sure that you win.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:18 am

Judging__Eagle wrote: ... somedays all I need is a bunch of rooms and dice rolls to populate them.

That sounds dreadfully boring because it's just random. The problem with random generation is that a lot of the time it doesn't really matter what choice you picked because it's all based on dice rolls anyway and it doesn't matter what you do in a random setup because the dice have control, not the PCs.

Now I'm not saying that total planning is good either, but a little planning certainly goes a long way, because you have some idea where the story could go. At least in terms of creating interesting NPCs and such, which leads to better verisimilitude and believability.

As opposed to: "You open the door to the tavern and see..... **rolls dice**, 2 giant boars and a Chaos beast. They are apparently **rolls dice** having drinks... Also, one of the giant boars is a prostitute."

NineInchNall · Post by **NineInchNall** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:11 am

Holy juicy Jesus fuck! I so want to play in that game!

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:29 am

I notice you didn't roll before deciding one of the giant boars was a prostitute.

Fuchs · Post by **Fuchs** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:02 am

I do random rolls a lot while GMing (Well, I let the players roll, usually 1 is "bad", 6 is "good", but they can mess up/change either). It's sort of "random social encounters", but not using a table.

The party runs into a warehouse, chased by guards? Random roll to see if they just crashed a clandestine meeting between the local thieves guild and Rackam the Red, infamous scourge of the seas.

Party fighter goes roaring drunk and hits on a pretty wench? Check to see if it's a disguised succubus, a princess on the run from her fiancé or a thief that is chased by a bounty hunter.

It keeps the game fresh(er) for me if I don't know too much in advance myself.