Octopus Rules Question

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:44 am

Referring to the baseline octopus, they only have two attacks; bite and 'arms'. The damage dealt by the arms is 0, but they have improved grapple to use their bite attack on the opponent.

The question is what happens to the damage of the 'arms' attack when you increase their size. Does it stay at 0 and remain as a single group attack?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:58 am

It seems like it would increase, or so the Giant Octopus would have you believe.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/octopusGiant.htm

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:14 am

Welcome to EBD in 3.x, when "octopus" and "big octopus" use entirely different rules. RAW, it stays a single attack, and dunno whether it stays at 0, or 0's the step before 1, which's before 1d2, I guess (thus, it wouldn't normally grow to 1d4 in 2 categories, BTW).

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:34 am

They listed it as 0, rather than just saying it doesn't deal damage. That implies (though I can't show you anything saying this is a fact) that it goes up a step - to 1 if you boost it one size, then 1d2, 1d3, 1d4 etc.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:38 am

And you know what the most annoying part about all this is? I was asking this to better understand the effects of applying the Titanic Creature template to it, because I'm trying to find the lowest CR monster that could break down city wall (5' reinforced stone, likely DC 50) with an actual strength check rather than raw damage, only to discover that the Titanic Creature template doesn't actually boost the damage of any natural attack except bite/gore/slam/claw.

Insult to injury is the fact that an titanic octopus (or even crocodile) remains too weak.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:45 am

I think technically the tentacle attack is a form of slam

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:07 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:I think technically the tentacle attack is a form of slam

Nope, slam attacks are the only kind of slam. Tentacles get a separate entry on the list of common natural attacks, too.

The Lunatic Fringe · Post by **The Lunatic Fringe** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:10 pm

Can the octopus use its ink cloud above water? I see no specific restriction?

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:41 pm

virgileso wrote:And you know what the most annoying part about all this is? I was asking this to better understand the effects of applying the Titanic Creature template to it, because I'm trying to find the lowest CR monster that could break down city wall (5' reinforced stone, likely DC 50) with an actual strength check rather than raw damage, only to discover that the Titanic Creature template doesn't actually boost the damage of any natural attack except bite/gore/slam/claw.

Insult to injury is the fact that an titanic octopus (or even crocodile) remains too weak.

Given that we're talking Str 88 here (with the tarrasque having only 45), I ... guess the problem's the DC.

Narcissus wrote:Can the octopus use its ink cloud above water? I see no specific restriction?

By RAW, yes. But since when do octopuses fight above water at all?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:47 pm

You do get a size bonus to strength checks to break something (+4 per category above large), so it's not required to be that high.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:47 pm

Actually, size bonuses apply. Just being Colossal is +16. Which means all you need is a Str of 58 (+24 modifier) and taking 10. You can reduce this via charging before the smash (+2), wearing Armbands of Might (+2), and so forth.

Juggernauting a DC 50 wall has been easily done by PC races, so it shouldn't be an issue for a monster.

Damn ninjas.

The Lunatic Fringe · Post by **The Lunatic Fringe** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:51 pm

Bigode wrote:
Narcissus wrote:Can the octopus use its ink cloud above water? I see no specific restriction?
By RAW, yes. But since when do octopuses fight above water at all?

Well, I also think that the ink cloud is permanant, which means that you can get an octopus familiar, and do some sort of crazy thing with non-dispellable 10' by 10' by 10' cubes of total concealment (having given the octopus a way to exist out of water).

I don't know if this is useful or not, but it seems like something that one could abuse.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:28 pm

Size to breaking yeah, but not charging, unless it's omitted from the SRD (or a Rules Compendium stealth change).

Narcissus wrote:Well, I also think that the ink cloud is permanent, which means that you can get an octopus familiar, and do some sort of crazy thing with non-dispellable 10' by 10' by 10' cubes of total concealment (having given the octopus a way to exist out of water).

I don't know if this is useful or not, but it seems like something that one could abuse.

Who needs fog spells?

The Lunatic Fringe · Post by **The Lunatic Fringe** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:45 pm

Bigode wrote:
Narcissus wrote:Well, I also think that the ink cloud is permanent, which means that you can get an octopus familiar, and do some sort of crazy thing with non-dispellable 10' by 10' by 10' cubes of total concealment (having given the octopus a way to exist out of water).

I don't know if this is useful or not, but it seems like something that one could abuse.
Who needs fog spells?

That's what I was thinking...though I don't know if the rolling head is laughing at me or WOTC.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:55 pm

Narcissus wrote:That's what I was thinking...though I don't know if the rolling head is laughing at me or WOTC.

It means "congratulations for finding something retarded".

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:55 pm

Narcissus wrote:
Bigode wrote:
Narcissus wrote:Well, I also think that the ink cloud is permanent, which means that you can get an octopus familiar, and do some sort of crazy thing with non-dispellable 10' by 10' by 10' cubes of total concealment (having given the octopus a way to exist out of water).

I don't know if this is useful or not, but it seems like something that one could abuse.
Who needs fog spells?
That's what I was thinking...though I don't know if the rolling head is laughing at me or WOTC.

All of the above?

The Lunatic Fringe · Post by **The Lunatic Fringe** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:56 pm

Roy wrote:
Narcissus wrote:
Bigode wrote: Who needs fog spells?
That's what I was thinking...though I don't know if the rolling head is laughing at me or WOTC.
All of the above?

Aw...and just when Bigode was making me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:46 pm

Thanks, Roy; this "make a man warm" thing doesn't suit me.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:46 pm

Bigode wrote:Thanks, Roy; this "make a man warm" thing doesn't suit me.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:00 pm

well, here's a question, is there any compelling reason for tentacles to not be slams?

Or pecks bites?

Or stings gores?

I mean, c'mon, there are four basic natural attacks, but so many creatures tack on random shit.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:08 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:well, here's a question, is there any compelling reason for tentacles to not be slams?

Or pecks bites?

Or stings gores?

I mean, c'mon, there are four basic natural attacks, but so many creatures tack on random shit.

Tentacles can deal cutting damage while slams can't, and pecks already are bites.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:12 pm

Bigode wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:well, here's a question, is there any compelling reason for tentacles to not be slams?

Or pecks bites?

Or stings gores?

I mean, c'mon, there are four basic natural attacks, but so many creatures tack on random shit.
Tentacles can deal cutting damage while slams can't, and pecks already are bites.

wouldn't it just be easier to say that a given creature's slams can do slashing?

and I think I might have been thinking of "Talon" attacks...

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:15 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:wouldn't it just be easier to say that a given creature's slams can do slashing?

Possibly, especially given that tentacles as-is need the specifying anyway ...