Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

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Josh_Kablack
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Josh_Kablack »

Also completely describes Alexander the Great. :bored:

rapanui at [unixtime wrote:1106875291[/unixtime]]
* Has only sympathetic flaws; Mary Sues may be paraplegic, or dangerously naïve, but are very rarely selfish or petty-minded


Selfish, probably? Petty-minded? Most assuredly Not. Perhaps meglomaniac, but the "conquered to spread democracy and civilization" sort of meglomania.


* Can do no wrong. Or, if she does do anything wrong, has strong justification for it.


Unifying the known world counts as strong justification for years of warfare.


* Unique abilities


Solved the Gordian Knot when nobody else could, conquered the known world before dying young, etc.


* Distinctive physical features (odd-coloured eyes, birthmarks, scars etc)


a translation of Plutarch wrote:
Alexander the son of Philip is reported to have possessed a natural beauty: his hair was wavy and fair.


Seems distinctive to me, although scholars are still arguing about his hair color (wait, isn't changing hair/eye color another trait of Mary Sues?)


* Unusual pet (especially, 'one only she could tame')

Bucephalos was untamable before Alexander.


* Deliberately exotic name

I think sticking "The Great" on the end makes it deliberately exotic.


* Name based on that of her author

Irrelevant to historical character


* Cultural/racial background very different from her peers (often adopted out of her culture)


Does having a foreign princess and cultist for a mother count? What about one that fell out of favor with the father and was exiled later in life?

If not, how about claiming to be the son of Zeus, and having his mother back it up? What about then also having an Egyptian high priest assert that he's the son of Amon-Ra?


* 21st-century attitudes in a setting where these are unheard-of


from http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch11.htm wrote:
Aristotle had advised Alexander to turn those non-Greeks he defeated into slaves, but Alexander had begun a policy of winning their respect and cooperation.


same wrote:
He hoped to create a new loyalty across the lands he had conquered and a new feeling among his subjects that they belonged to a world outside their home town.


Those seem pretty 21st century to me.


* Close relationship with a major canonical character (long-lost brother, etc)


Tutored by Aristotle.


* Centrally involved in every part of the story


Um, if by "story" you mean the history of the ancient world in the 4th century BC, then yes.


* Invokes powers impossible in the canon


Conquered the known world by the age of 32, defeated armies much bigger than his, ranks as one of the greatest military geniuses of all time, etc.

What a fucking hack.






"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by RandomCasualty »

:lmao:
nice one Josh.
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by rapanui »

"Selfish, probably? Petty-minded? Most assuredly Not. Perhaps meglomaniac, but the "conquered to spread democracy and civilization" sort of meglomania."

He was a facist. He gets points for having Aristotle as a mentor, but frankly, he doesn't sound like someone I would admire or emulate.

"Unifying the known world counts as strong justification for years of warfare."

Tell that to the dead. Oh wait... they're dead.

"Solved the Gordian Knot when nobody else could, conquered the known world before dying young, etc."

Add CHEATER to his list of flaws.

"Seems distinctive to me, although scholars are still arguing about his hair color (wait, isn't changing hair/eye color another trait of Mary Sues?)"

Uh... right. Basically, we're talking something incredibly distinctive. Purple eyes, kinda shit...

"Bucephalos was untamable before Alexander."

Get me a primary source for that one. These are the exagerations typical to military 'heroes' that i don't buy for one second.

"If not, how about claiming to be the son of Zeus, and having his mother back it up? What about then also having an Egyptian high priest assert that he's the son of Amon-Ra?"

Add INSANITY to his list of flaws.

"Those seem pretty 21st century to me."

I'll accept this point. Somewhat. He actually needed more soldiers and trying for sympathy in conquered lands never hurts. All to fuel his ego. His motherfvcking ego.

"Conquered the known world by the age of 32, defeated armies much bigger than his, ranks as one of the greatest military geniuses of all time, etc."

He perfected the use of the Greek phalanx. I am not impressed.

Use Napoleon instead. At least with him you can get an extra point for using small height as a defining characteristic.

I wipe my ass on great military 'heroes' and spit on their graves.
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Josh_Kablack »

rapanui at [unixtime wrote:1106945588[/unixtime]]

"Bucephalos was untamable before Alexander."

Get me a primary source for that one.


Plutarch. Take it or leave it.


The point is, that there are historical characters who possess all (or at least most) of the traits which supposedly make Mary Sues so annoying and unrealistic.


"But transportation issues are social-justice issues. The toll of bad transit policies and worse infrastructure—trains and buses that don’t run well and badly serve low-income neighborhoods, vehicular traffic that pollutes the environment and endangers the lives of cyclists and pedestrians—is borne disproportionately by black and brown communities."
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

rapanui at [unixtime wrote:1106945588[/unixtime]]
I wipe my ass on great military 'heroes' and spit on their graves.


And guess what?

People will still be talking about them long after you and I have died and faded into obscurity.

So instead of spitting and wiping, why not make something of your life, instead of bitching about people more famous than you because they're more famous than you?
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Nawnawnaw. You guys want the picture perfect example of a Mary Sue? I need point you no further than, well... the main character of any given story written by David "Davey-Kins" Gonterman*.The most glaring of these examples is "Davey Crockett" the protagonist of the Sonic the Hedgehog** fanfic Blood and Metal. I am given to understand that Crockett is not really his last name, but that he adopted the name after deciding that the world had need of people with the sort of pioneer attitude that Crockett represented to him (I don't know his real name. Whenever I try to read B&M, my brain seizes up. And I have actually a really good tolerance for cheezy fanfiction). Crockett was a hero of some sort who, shortly after fulfilling his heroic deed, had his arm shot off by an generically-"Down With Whitey" angry black man. After that point, the arm was replaced by a cybernetic prostesis and he is drawn into a world where he would become a beloved revolutionary. And to make matters worse, I'm given to understand that in later installments, the mary-sue-ism is enhanced by the fact that all the prominant characters either flock adoringly to his leadership, or are made into less likeable characters for it (Sonic himself, I believe, becomes a raging alcoholic. How's that for off-character writing?). It wouldn't surprise me if Davey was personally and single-handedly responsible for the downfall of all the major villians in the world. He is alternatly misunderstood and adored, he's a conduit for the author's philosophies and viewpoints, and he's ultimatly undefeatable.

Add on top of that that the writing is bad. I mean really bad. I mean you-paid-nothing-but-you-still-feel-cheated bad. To give you an idea of just how brain-meltingly, sanity-crackingly bad it it, here's how Blood and Metal begins.

[url=http://www.commuterbarnacle.com/gonterman/sthbam1.txt wrote:Blood And Metal[/url]]Zone One--Act One:

The glass tube slides down around the Roboticizer, with a
young human without a left arm seated inside. A gas mask giving nitrous oxide is strapped over his face. When the tube snaps into place, a heads-up display gives a readout over the glass:

Subject: Davey Crockett
Operation: Replace Left Arm
Est. Robotization: 12%
Ready to Proceed--Press Any Key.


A fox dressed in a military dress and wearing a crown stands before Davey, carrying a hand-held touch screen. "It appears that you haven't woke up from your . . . accident, in over a month, Dave," the squirrel says. "It appears that you don't want to wake up, do you? Can't say that I blame you, after what happened with that Piasa Bird. You saved your city, only to be shot at for thanks! And over something your ancestors did to boot! I can see why you don't want to return to your world, my friend, but maybe I can entice you with something more." He gave the Roboticizer the go-ahead.


Mary-Sues go far deeper than any simple power-fantasy. They aren't anything to applaud. They're the rotted fruit of small, insecure minds who need someone to tell them that they're valuable, that their ridiculed ideas and beliefs are right after all, that their percieved struggles won't be in vain, and that somewhere out there is a place where everyone understands their angst and all the people of their preferred gender want them, and all the other people want to BE them, even if the person telling this is an imaginary character specifically designed for the sole purpouse of stroking their mind-cock.

-Desdan


*It's worth mentioning that this site is actually set up as a place to marvel at one of the people with the biggest and least justified ego in fandom. It's not set up to venerate Gonterman in any way shape or form. Basically it's there so people can look at him and say "Geezy-Creezy, what a fuck-up." Arguably unfair, but that's the internet for you. Pretty much everyone I've ever talked to agrees that Davey-Kins brought it on himself. None of the Fandoms he ostensibly belongs to will have him, including the Furries. Oh, and he gave himself that nickname.

**Yeah yeah. But fanfiction itself is rediculous by nature. I will say this, most StH fanfiction is based not on the video games, but on one of several cartoon shows, or the long-running comic book put out by Archie Comics.
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by User3 »

Obviously Michael Moorcock understood the "Mary Sue."

This is The Stone Thing by Michael Moorcock, copyright 1975.

It is worth the read ;)


> The Stone Thing
>
>
> A Tale of Strange Parts
>
> Out of the dark places; out of the howling mists; out of the lands without sun;
out of Ghonorea came tall Catharz, with the moody sword Oakslayer in his right hand, the cursed spear Bloodlicker in his left hand, the evil bow Deathsinger on his back together with his quiver full of fearful rune-fletched arrows, Heartseeker, Goregreedy, Soulsnatcher, Orphanmaker, Eyeblinder, Sorrowsower, Beanslicer, and several others.
> Where his right eye should have been there was a jewel of slumbering scarlet whose colour sometimes shifted to smouldering blue, and in the place of his left eye was a many-faceted crystal, which pulsed as if possessed of independent life. Where Catharz had once had a right hand, now a thing of iron, wood and carved amethyst sat upon his stump; nine-fingered, alien, cut by Catharz from the creature who had sliced off his own hand.
> Catharz' left hand was at first merely gauntleted, but when one looked further it could be observed that the gauntlet was in fact a many jointed limb of silver, gold and lapis lazuli, but as Catharz rode by, those who saw him pass remarked not on the murmuring sword in his right hand, not on the whispering spear in his left hand, not on the whining bow upon his back or the grumbling arrows in the quiver; neither did they remark on his right eye of slumbering scarlet, his left eye of pulsing crystal, his nine-fingered right hand, his shining metallic left hand; they saw only the fearful foot of Cwlwwymwn which throbbed in the stirrup at his mount's right flank.
> The foot of the Aching God, Cwlwwymwn Rootripper, whose ambition upon the old and weary earth had been to make widows of all wives;
> Cwlwwymwn the Striker, whose awful feet had trampled whole cities when men had first made cities; Cwlwwymwn of the Last Ones, Last of the Last Ones, who had been driven back to his island domain on the edge of the world, beyond the Western Ice, and who now came limping after Catharz screaming out for vengeance, demanding the return of his foot, sliced from his leg by Oakslayer so that Catharz might walk again and continue upon his doomladen quest, bearing weapons which were not his protection but his burden, seeking consolation for the guilt which ate at his soul since it was he who had been responsible for the death of his younger brother, Forax the Golden, for the death of his neice, Libia Gentleknee, for the living death of his cousin, Wertigo the Unbalanced, seeking the whereabouts of his lost love, Cyphila the Fair, who had been stolen from him by his arch-enemy, the wizard To'me'ko'op'r, most powerful, most evil, most lustful of all the great sorcerors of this magic-clouded world.
> And there were no friends here to give aid to Catharz Godfoot. He must go alone, with shuddering terror before him and groaning guilt behind him, and Cwlwwymwn, screaming, vengeful, limping Cwlwwymwn, following always.
> And Catharz rode on, rarely stopping, scarcely ever dismounting, anxious to claim his own vengeance on the sorceror, and the foot of Cwlwwymwn, Last of the Last Ones, was heavy on him, as well it might be for it was at least eighteen inches longer than his left foot and naked, for he had had to abandon his boot when he had found that it did not fit.
> Now Cwlwwymwn possessed the boot; it was how he had known that Catharz was the mortal who had stolen his green, seventeed-clawed limb, attaching it by fearful sorcery to the flesh of his leg.
> Catharz' left leg was not flesh at all, but of lacquered cork, made for him by the People of the World Beneath the Reefs, when he had aided them in their great fight against the Gods of the Lowest Sea.
> The sun had stained the sky a livid crimson and had sunk below the horizon before Catharz would allow himself a brief rest and it was just before dark that he came in sight of a small stone cottage, sheltered beneath terraces of glistening limestone, where he hoped he might find food, for he was very hungry.
> Knocking upon the door he called out:
> "Greetings, I come in friendship, seeking hospitality, for I am called Catharz the Melancholy, who carries the curse of Cwlwwymwn Rootripper upon him, who has many enemies and no friends, who slew his brother, Forax the Golden, and caused the death of Libia Gentleknee, famous for her beauty, and who seeks his list love Cyphila the Fair, prisoner of the wizard To'me'ko'op'r, and who has a great and terrible doom upon him."
> The door opened and a woman stood there. Her hair was the silver of a spiderweb in the moonlight, her eyes were the deep gold found at the centre of a beehive, her skin had the pale, blushing beauty of the tea-rose. "Welcome, stranger," said she. "Welcome to all that is left of the home of Lanoli, whose father was once the migtiest in these parts."
> And, upon beholding her, Catharz forgot Cyphila the Fair, forgot that Cwlwwymwn Rootripper limped after him still, forgot thet he had slain his brother, his neice, and betrayed his cousin, Wertigo the Unbalanced.
> "You are very beautiful, Lanoli," he said.
> "Ah," said she, "that is what I have learned. But beauty such as mine can only thrive if it is seen and it has been so long since anyone came to these lands."
> "Let me help your beauty thrive," he said.
> Food was forgotten, guilt was forgotten, fear was forgotten as Catharz divested himself of his sword, his spear, his bow and his arrows and walked slowly into the cottage. His gait was a rolling one, for he still bore the burden that was the foot of the Last of the Last Ones, and it took him some little time to pull it through the door, but at length he stood inside and has closed the door behind him and had taken her in his arms and pressed his lips to hers.
> "Oh, Catharz," she breathed. "Catharz!"
> It was not long until they stood naked before one another. Her eyes traveled over his body and it was plain that the eyes of scarlet and crystal were lovely to her, that she admired his sliver hand and his nine-fingered hand, that even the great foot of Cwlwwymwn was beautiful in her sight.
> But the her eyes, shy until now, fell upon that which lay between his legs, and those eyes widened a little, and she blushed. Her lovely lips framed a question, but he moved forward as swiftly as he could and embraced her again.
> "How?" she murmured. "How, Catharz?"
> "It is a long tale and a bloody one," he whispered, "of rivalry and revenge, but suffice it to say that it ended in my father, Xympwell the Cruel, taking a terible vengeance upon me. I fled from his court into the wastes of Grxiwynn, raving mad, and it was there that the tribesmen of Velox found me and took me to the wise Man of Oorps in the mountains beyond Katatonia. He nursed me and carved that for me. It took him two years, and all through those years I remained raving, living off dust and dew and roots, as he lived. The engravings had mystical significance, the runes contain the sum of his great wisdom, the tiny pictures show all there is to show about physical love. Is it not beautiful? More beautiful that that which it has replaced?"
> Her glance was modest; she nodded slowly.
> "It is indeed, very beautiful," she agreed. And then she looked up at him and he saw that tears glistened in her eyes. "But did it have to be made of sandstone?"
> "There is little else," he explained sadly, "in the mountains beyond Katatonia."
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

:lmao:

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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Username17 »

The thing is... that's the actual text. I had forgotten that. Are you in fact named after the main character of that great literary work?

---

Background: Moorcock wrote prodigiously, and often not well. With the help of some very generous editors and some obsessive fanboys, he eventually gained the power to print literally anything he wrote. So he put together a pile of fan pieces he made in his teens and published them in a collection called Sojan.

They are garbage the likes of which you wouldn't inflict on people you felt sternly about. And Moorcock seems to know it. He prefaced the work with The Stone Thing, a work of either extremely broad handed parody or possibly just the very worst of the crap he put to paper in high school.

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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1107149187[/unixtime]]Are you in fact named after the main character of that great literary work?


I decided to use that username on the WotC boards to remind me how silly fantasy gaming as a hobby can be. And seriously "Catharz Godsfoot," while absurd, still isn't as bad as some of the stuff I've seen on Character Development or Character Optimization (Two arms of whats-his-face, cheesed-out EQ, Fighter/Mage/Thief syndrome, etc.)

Plus, I have an unfortunate tendancy to create characters like Catharz :(
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

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"Greetings, I come in friendship, seeking hospitality, for I am called Catharz the Melancholy, who carries the curse of Cwlwwymwn Rootripper upon him, who has many enemies and no friends, who slew his brother, Forax the Golden, and caused the death of Libia Gentleknee, famous for her beauty, and who seeks his list love Cyphila the Fair, prisoner of the wizard To'me'ko'op'r, and who has a great and terrible doom upon him."


Help me out. Who opens their door to a guy who says this?

After reading the first sentence, I understood that this was overall a steaming pile of elephant dung. I just didn't imagine it could get *worse*.

:bash:
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by MrWaeseL »

Seriously, who names his arrow "Beanslicer"? :wtf:
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by RandomCasualty »

Yeah, ok that is unbelievably awful.
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Maj »

:lmao: :lmao:

I'd probably be inclined to think of the guy as some undead creation of a lich or something... No eyes, no hands, one foot, and a "stone thing."

Holy crap.

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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

OMFG that's hilarious!
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by MrWaeseL »

Wouldn't Gandalf also be a Mary Sue? And the One Ring?
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Boulie_98 »

More like Frodo.
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by Username17 »

Hmmm....

Aristocrat in a changing world? Check.
Learned? Check.
Always the center of attention? Check.
Absolutely pivotal to the continued operation of the world? Check.
Really gay? Check.

Self insertion character for Tolkien? Oh hell yes.

Self-insertion isn't always bad. And you wouldn't call Frodo a Mary Sue - even though Sam is clearly his C. S. Lewis. The writing is good, and that forgives a lot. You only take issue with self-insertioning when it gets in the way - like it does in Pern.

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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by rapanui »

Quoting Josh:
"Plutarch. Take it or leave it."

"My intention is not to write histories, but lives." -Plutarch

Since I am not a historian I cannot assess the validity of claiming Plutarch as a source, so i will give you the benefit of the doubt.

Quoting Josh:
"The point is, that there are historical characters who possess all (or at least most) of the traits which supposedly make Mary Sues so annoying and unrealistic."

Unrealistic... never said that. Just lacking literary merit (hence, the author is a hack). And yes, they are occasionally annoying. Hell, one could even argue that Salvatore's novels have literary merit from some other direction... perhaps as a not too subtle statement on rascism or something. Not that it matters, since he IS a fvcking hack.

At any rate, yes, you made a point: real life people sometimes possess the traits Mary Sues have. However, writing a novel about being an Alexander-like conqueror is very different from actually being one. Which brings me to this:

Count said:
"And guess what?
People will still be talking about them long after you and I have died and faded into obscurity.
So instead of spitting and wiping, why not make something of your life, instead of bitching about people more famous than you because they're more famous than you?"

So quick to judge...

No, I worship great men of science who strive to make the world better through intellect, knowledge, and philosophy rather than by brute force*. Every day I strive to be more like them, and not some brutal war-hungry mercenary. And my intention was never to complain, but to egregiously show my spite for them and those who revere them. If you ever hear me complain, it will be because I have a much weaker mind than what is required to be a truly amazing scientist.




*I acknowledge that brute force is sometimes necessary, but those that are the initial aggressors (like Alexander, more often than not, IIRC) shouldn't be fondly remembered.
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Re: Mary Sue Appreciation Thread

Post by bosssmiley »

FrankTrollman wrote:The Stone Thing[/U], a work of either extremely broad handed parody or possibly just the very worst of the crap he put to paper in high school.

-Username17
"The Stone Thing" was Moorcock consciously parodying the totemic weapon aspects of his own Eternal Champion franchise. At least the man has some self-awareness. :bored:
Source: the introduction to the Sojan the Swordsman collection.

edit: Karl Edward Wagner's Kane: Mary Sue, or not? He has a unique origin, unusual appearance, is privy to secret lore, is hardcore beyond the dreams of mortal men, talks to ancient giants and the God of Death as to equals...
Last edited by bosssmiley on Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Roy »

So, does the ability to revive things that have been dead over 4 years make one a Mary Sue? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Post by ckafrica »

How about being a dick to someone just to hear your own voice? I have my suspicions...
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Post by bosssmiley »

Eh? How did that happen? I'm sure this was an active thread.

*has teh shame*
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Post by Crissa »

Hey, they're all active if you have relevant info. Which you did.

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Post by Cynic »

ckafrica wrote:How about being a dick to someone just to hear your own voice? I have my suspicions...
No, I think that already had a term invented by Frats and probably by the movies. I'm not too sure -- cockmunch.
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