Help in Creating a Character for a D&D 3.5 Game

[Rathe]

Hello all, I’m back to ask for your advice again.

I’ve joined a gaming group, well rejoined as I’d left for close to a year because of life and travel and the DM has changed. Anyhow, so I asked what kind of character they needed and the answer came back “more damage and tanking” because they are all dying too much. The party is composed of a wizard/construct creator type, rogue/cleric, monk, ranger and NPC cleric.

The game is a 30 point buy, I'll be starting at level 11, PHB races only set in the Forgotten Realms and I’ve been restricted to no wizard, druid, beguiler or any thief type (the first numbers character rogue/guild thief/swashbuckler I made was promptly shot down because they are all Lawful Good and it “wouldn’t fit”). Oh, and if you choose a prestige class, you can be no further than part way thru it, because they want to see you role-play it out.

Speaking of which, you have to be of good alignment and be non-chaotic, worship Helm (Law, Plan, Prot, Str). In fact, they will be giving me random equipment to start and 15k of gold and I’ll have to make do from there (+ 1 Mithral BP, +2 Heavy Mace, +2 Gauntlets Ogre Power, +2 Wisdom Necklace, Pearl of Power (Level 2), +2 Ring of Prot. They are also requiring me to buy certain feats (as noted below). One good thing is that they like knowledge’s; so we get 2 free skill points per level for knowledge’s and they are all class skills.

As for resources, I’m restricted mainly to Core, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium and some of the complete series (sparingly); they don’t want too much “strange and wacky stuff”. Feats have to be individually approved and there are no DMM shenanigans.

So, with those restrictions in mind I decided on the following character:

LN Dwarven Cleric 8 / Ordained Champion 3
Str 14, Dex 10, Con:16, Int: 10, Wis: 16 +2; Cha 10

1 - C1) Feat: Power Attack; C1[Domains (Planning, Protection), Turning]
3 - C3) Feat (Knowledge Devotion)
4 - C4) Stat Increase (Wisdom +1)
6 - C5/OC1) Feat (Touch of Healing*); OC[Domain (War), lose caster level]**
8 - C6/OC2) Stat Increase (Wisdom +1); OC[Feat (Diehard); Turn -> Smite]
9 - C7/OC2) Feat (Holy Warrior)
10 – C7/OC3) OC[Channel Spell, Diving Bulwark]
11 – C8/OC3)
12 - C8/OC4) Feat(Awesome Smite)
*denotes a required feat
**I convinced the DM to allow me to ignore the Weapon Focus Feat…well, actually trade it out the minute I get it for another feat, but whatever.

Please note that because of OC, I can also exchange a domain for a fighter bonus feat, would that be of any use?

Anyhow, I’ve built this guy according to the meatshield guidelines, but mainly I’m looking at buffing myself in the morning with G.Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment, get a animated shield that I can buff too, Karma Beads to help with the morning buffing and try to make up for it with cleric spells. Really want a Nightstick and a Reliquary Holy Symbol...I'm able to get the Wizard to craft me a +2 Belt of Magnificence as long as I supply the xp and money.

(Heck I'm almost tempted to play a Psychic Warrior/Warmind but I do love the casting)

Any suggestions for me?

[CatharzGodfoot]

I'm sure you've already thought about this, but the standard suggestion is don't dilute your spellcasting. Whether it be cleric or psychic warrior, you're generally better off with the higher bonuses/better spells/more spells.

[Username17]

Why does "tanking and damage" mean actually hitting things with a stick? Wouldn't you be better off being a Druid and dropping a Wall of Thorns every battle? Or a Wizard and opening up all engagements with a Web?

In D&D, "tanking" is done by preventing enemies from getting attacks, not by having shiny armor.

-Username17

[Rathe]

Thank you for responding, I understand it is a pretty wacky request and especially with the number of constraints...believe me, I know.

@CatharzGodfoot
- In this instance I'd be losing 2 caster levels...likely going straight cleric for the rest (unless I can get a 1 level dip into prestige paladin). I don't want to lose them, but can't see how to be the fighty type they expect without it. OC gives me a bunch of fighty things (and is supposed to be good), but I've never actually played a true fighter type before and don't know how to judge too well.

@ FrankTrollman
- I totally agree with you, but as you can see the specifically forbid me from playing stuff like that (because I've done it before). They really aren't that open to "outside the box" thinking, so I'm going to have to take it slow as is. (probably why they're getting killed so often, even with a NPC pocket healer) Figure that I'll eventually open battles with Doomtide and then smack whatever is around with some Walls of Good to hem foes in.

[CatharzGodfoot]

What exactly do you mean by "the fighty type"? Clerics get heavy armor and shields. You're using a heavy mace (why not the more badass morningstar?), so it doesn't seem like the weapon selection is a problem.

[Rathe]

"Fighty type" - Someone who attacks with a weapon to deal lots of damage and has quite a bit of armour.
Honestly, I'd prefer to be just a caster, but the first thing they asked when I made up a character is "How much does he hit for?". I figured that the smite, spell storage, BAB and Bastard Sword from the OC might make up for the lost caster levels.
Do you think I would be better off forgetting it altogether and just going Cleric 11?

[Roy]

Lols, how cute. The noobs think AC and HP matter.

[Rathe]

I guess what I'm really asking is if there any way for me to choose feats and/or spells that will allow me to smack things with a stick to do damage (which is what they all expect and want to see), without feeling small in the pants and wanting to just switch back to being a pure caster that I typically play?

If there is anything at all you can think of (without DMM) please let me know because I'm at a loss on how to compete with encounters as a fighty type.

[Kaelik]

Frankly, they are dumb and you should tell them so.

Let me guess, the Monk and Rogue keep getting the crap beat out of them, and the ranger if he's melee and the Wizard if he's dumb.

I've played a level 11 game once, we had a guy who crafted Constructs.

He had a huge Dire Lion Pouncing construct that did over 300 damage on a charge, had AC in the low 40s and had easily the most HP.

And you know what, no one attacked him.

The Rogue is upset because whenever he goes into melee he gets raped? More tanking isn't going to help. The problem is that for some reason monsters don't stand around next to the toughest melee fighter thwaking on him, they go bitch the rogue.

Tell the construct guy to make a construct to tank, and tell everyone that no matter how high your AC the enemies aren't going to attack you.

FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK I hate that shit.

Play a Wizard. Cast EBT/Solid Fog, tank better then any beatstick.

[Username17]

My suggestion is to be a straight Cleric, grab a lesser quicken rod, and buff yourself up with Spikes and GMW ahead of time. Then open up every battle by quick buffing yourself with crap like Divine Favor. But while you are buffing up, throw down big ridiculous battlefield control spells like Doomtide and Wall of Stone. Hopefully they will eventually figure out that you running in and swinging a Cudgel of relatively big damage is so much less effective than you laying the area denial smack on an entire enemy contingent that you can gradually phase out bothering to buff yourself up at all.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

First of all, take the Strength domain rather than Protection. Although it would be more of a boost at lower levels, enlarge person is pretty awesome. It no longer stacks with righteous might, but it's a lot cheaper. The free action strength boost is effectively a smite with more general utility that applies to both of your attacks in a round.

Wall of stone and plane shift are generally more effective, but the cleric buffs are still better than what a few fighter-like levels will get you.

In a level, you'll see the benefit of having a CL of 12 in terms of the bonuses you'l get from buffs. Stack up all the long-duration buffs that you can. GMW and magic vestment both last 11 hours. Assuming that your mace isn't locked in, you could change it to +1 spell storing (and put a blindness or bestow curse in before every combat), or even make it defending for a minor AC boost when you're buffing.

[Roy]

Defending on a main weapon is Turtle Fail. Throw it on some bullshit spikes, and make the GMW Chained.

[Rathe]

Thank you for your suggestions, I guess you really can't supplement casting with beat-stick tactics.
I think that I'll try the buff myself up, manipulate the battlefield to my liking followed by tapping them on the head strategy.
Hopefully, the wizard will smarten up and create a nice construct so it can baff people on the head.
As for the ranger, monk (who by the way doesn't do anything...just buffs himself up with combat expertise) and rogue (who started taking cleric levels)...they can either take advantage of the dazed, held & stuck opponents or not.

[Roy]

Sounds like they're all suffering from Turtle Fail. And making a beatstick actually work basically requires a caster heavy party throwing lots of group buffs around. Also, lots of item crafting, that those other than the caster can pay for, thus allowing the beatstick to get significantly more than WBL worth of gear, and thus the amount of gear they need to have.

Then you get hilarious moments where the level 14 cohort with relevant saves around 30 and > 200 HP bitchslaps a geared up Balor (who isn't really level 20, but hey) into the wall three times to knock off around 80% of its health. And if the last attack had rolled 1 higher, or the crit confirmed, Balor dies by Murder Pinball + Hulk Smash.

But without all that, you get the beatstick Dominated and made to flail for piddly shit at his party, or just ignored. Whichever.

So basically, simplest way is to show them that negating enemies is like 'tanking' except it actually works.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Pull the standard bullshit.

Straight Cleric.

Large Shield, Magic Vestement
Full Plate Armor of <nobody cares>, Magic Vestement
+1 Weapon of <every energy type>, Greater Magic Weapon
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quickening (bullshit buff yourself every round, Bless, Prayer, Bull Strength, Enlarge Person, whatever, blow your slots)
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extending

Holy Warrior feat. You take this at level 9 because it is awesome. It gives you a free +5 to damage in exchange for not casting your highest level spell (you don't anyways because you have Touch of Healing).

You start off each combat with an Quickened Enlarge Person, a Divine Power, and a move action to stand in the way and get AoOs with your kickass reach.

At level 12, you are attacking at:
level+STR+4(weapon)+4(strength enhancements) = 12+2+4+4=+22/+17/+12
for
<weapon>+STR+4+4+6 = 16 damage + however many enhancements you stack on that weapon (3d6?) = 26.5

Next round you quicken a Bulls Strength (+2atk/dmg), a Divine Favor (+3atk/dmg), a Prayer (everyone gets +2atk/dmg, effectively), or a Summon Monster 3 (trade down and give everyone flanking for 1+ rounds).

You AC is also above average to start (no rings or amulets), at:
10+10(max dex plate)+4(magic vestment)+2(shield)+4(magic Vestment) = 30

With an amulet and a ring, this jumps up to 34 (which is enough to make monsters miss about 1/2 of the time)
----

Summary, you reliably do something like 50 damage/round (that third attack doesn't count) with 30 AC as a large creature, strength buffed (started at 14), at full BAB, with some leftover caster levels. It takes you roughly 3 rounds to kill a CR 12 monster with raw damage (Spell storing FTW!), which likely makes you the best in the party at dealing damage (this makes me sad). Additionally, you can marginally buff up everyone in the party in a given round (Prayer or Summon Monster 3 for the flanking/sneak attack). You should be in the way a lot, and can soak a decent number of hits.

Side Note - your players specify an awful lot. a Wand of Lesser Vigor is pretty much better than Healing Touch. Also, specify your God and equipment for you, wtf?

Side Note: Ordained Champion is a trap. At level 12, your 2 level drop in CL is worth EXACTLY +2 dmg/attack, and +2 AC, and highest level spells. I haven't seen where Ordained Champion can reliably return +2 dmg/attack and +2 AC, to say nothing of the other benefits. You can only cast 1 quickened spell/round, and a Lesser Rod of Quickening takes care of the more than OC gives you.

Also, see if you can get your DM to make Touch of Healing an attack action, rather than a Standard Action. This way you can just give yourself Fast Healing <highest level spell> instead of making a whiff on the 3rd attack, after you are down to half hp.

Also, you prepare Slay Living and Plane Shift daily. You then play the guessing game of "is this a Fort or Will Monster". If you guess right, they die.

[Username17]

One casting of Spikes on a god damn stick is better for all day as kicking than that pathetic mace. Just sell it or leave it on a shelf. You're an 11th level Cleric, you seriously just poop better weapons than that 6th level piece of shit.

-Username17

[CatharzGodfoot]

One casting of Spikes on a god damn stick is better for all day as kicking than that pathetic mace. Just sell it or leave it on a shelf. You're an 11th level Cleric, you seriously just poop better weapons than that 6th level piece of shit.

-Username17

Sounds painful, but I guess that's why the cleric has all those 'cure' spells.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Wow. Add Brambles (+6 dmg) or Spikes (double Threat range, +2 damage) to my list of buffs to Quicken.

Problem with Spikes, however, is that it has a 1 round/level duration.

For the record, you look WAY BELOW your Wealth by level:
http://www.msen.com/~muffin/ADD/Chars/w ... level.html suggests 66000

you have:
15K in gold
1000+4000=5000 +1 Mithral BP
8000 +2 Heavy Mace
4000 +2 Gauntlets Ogre Power
4000 +2 Wisdom Necklace
4000 Pearl of Power (Level 2)
8000 +2 Ring of Prot
----
48000 in wealth

(18K, or 27% behind the wealth curve)

Here is what you want:
35K Lesser Rod of Quickening (it is worth it to take Craft Rod for this)
3K Lesser Rod of Extending (extends your armor and shield bonuses)
8K +2 Ring of Protection
1.5K Full Plate
20 Heavy Steel Shield
--------
47.52 K (this is your current wealth limit, meaning you can trade all your shit for this shit)

You have 18.5 in Wealth by Level remaining
Here are some decent options:
8K +2 amulet of Natural Armor
18K +1 Holy Weapon (+3 total) because it deals bullshit damage
OR 8K Spell Storing (Light of Venya 6d6, Slashing Darkness 5d8)
11K Rod of Extending (for GMW)
11K Belt of Battle (extra actions, sign me up!)
2.5K Ring of sustenance (2 hours/day of sleep is nice)

I would have to go with the Belt of Battle and the Spell Storing Weapon.

[Roy]

If you took Craft Rod, you'd have another 19k though since those rods would only cost 19k. I'd take the Extend Rod for 5.5k (crafting ftw) and I dunno, a Karma Bead or something. And the ring. That should all fit. Assuming you can craft those items at this level. For some reason, metamagic rods are a bullshit level 17 to craft, even if it's something like Lesser Extend you would use at level 4-5. It's worth taking Craft Wondrous Item for this (though you'd also use it for other stuff, like all the +x to y stat items). Only problem with this approach is no Wis item, but you should be fine until you can get 2k, 8k, or 18k for that.

[Rathe]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for the advice in creating/playing this character. Since you assisted making him I figured to tell you about how he was received.

To start off, I finally discovered why there were so many restrictions; apparently I was taking over the NPC Buff/Heat-bot and therefore would have to wait until I was back in town to adjust my skills and feats, as otherwise he wouldn't fit into the storyline. For the record his feat & skill selection was: Power Attack, Touch of Healing, Ranged Healing, Spontaneous Domain (protection) & Combat Casting with skills in Concentration, Heal, Siegecraft, Spot & Religion. Oh did I mention they'd selected his spells too? Why do you even memorize healing spells?

A bit more info on the party; 11 Wizard/Effigy Master with no construct (because he's been short on cash), 11 Monk/Ranger/Tattooed Monk (grappler with enchanted spiked gauntlets) & a 11 Rogue/Cleric/Shadowbane Stalker (who focuses on not getting hit, to the expense of all other actions - burns spells for AC bonus?)

So the game starts off with a fight/ambush by 13 regular ogres, with reinforcements 2 rounds later by 2 Ogre Barb6, 4 Ogre Warlk6, 2 Ogre Magi Sorc6 & 2 Ogre Clr6 who surprised us because they were all invisible. So the monk and wiz were captured, the rogue escaped by flight and I was killed by the two fully power attacking barbarians in the surprise round. Henceforth they then raised all their dead with class levels & reincarnated me as a dwarf which was cool, but resulted in me losing a level.

So we're stripped naked and hog-tied, to be taken for bounty or something. The ranger eventually rescues us (but not our stuff) with the help of a druid and being able to burrow. We attempted to follow their tracks after buffing up, with the rogue sharing leather armour & a torch, but nothing else of his gear because "he doesn't trust us enough". This, by the way, included wizard wands/scrolls that the wizzy could use, especially since he was entirely out of spells and without spell book.

Here's a positive! I got to use spikes from the CDiv - pg181, which gives them a 1hr/level duration...the DM got shouted down by the others when he wanted to ban it because it was written in an approved book, I didn't say a thing.

So we were ambushed following the tracks and when I say we, I mean the wizard (with no spells left or equipment) and myself, because apparently the other two hide when they are freakin tracking...and suck at detection rolls (+8 mods?) So out pops 2 Ogre Barbarians, 2 Ogre Warlocks & 1 Ogre Magi Sorcerer with the Wizzy and I fortunately succeeding on listen checks, so there was no surprise round for them. Decided to play beat-stick & took out a Barb in 4 rounds, first round to drop a doomtide on both barbs and a lock, moving into it (saving) to gain concealment, while casting quick march so the wizard could run away; the next round to cast righteous might and the third/fourth to smack him with a couple of power attacks. Divine Powered and moved onto the next Ogre, helped in killing him when Ogre Magi cast Cone of Cold at us. The other two (monk, rogue) manage to drop a warlock, then the monk grabs his Hewards Haversack off the corpse and starts checking the contents and gear up for the next 2-3 rounds. The Ogre Magi ran, rogue pursued, OM went invisible and evaded pursuit. The last warlock & I faced off he went invisible, I purged it, exchanged blows with him flying off at full speed & invising...damn.

Here he is right now:
Dwarf Cleric 10 - S:14; D:12; C:16; W:18; I:10; Ch:10
*crappy feats that I can't train out*
Leather Armour + Magic Vestment
No shield
Torch + Gr. Magic Weapon + Spikes
Gr. Spell Resistance
BAB: 8+2(str)+2(gmw)=10/5
AC: 10+4+1=15 (no shield)
DMG: 1d2+2+10+2=1d2+14

Overall he was met by mixed reactions, as he seems a might bit overpowered with his buffs. They were worried that I'd now be their primary damage dealer and healer...too many roles/responsibilities, but they want to wait a session or two before they (see DM) go and 'nerf' anything.


Few things:
1) How do I protect against those stupid warlock touch attacks.
2) Sure-fire way to track down those ogres and our stuff. I'm thinking Scry (with ogre blood from the one who got away) + locate object when near.
3) How to avoid those blooming Invis ambushes.
4) Do you think it wise that I "loan" 10k+ gp to the wizard to craft a fighting effigy thing? I figure that he could craft me a bunch of wonderous stuff at 1/2 cost it'd be worth it to work with him. (if I get the $$ back)
5) Oh and lastly, do I gain any movement speed when my size category changes?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, as the wizard refuses to go back until we get his spellbook (which he didn't trap or have recall spells cast on it...or a secret page spare (which they feel is broken)) and I'd like some $$$ without doing things that would put them outside their comfort zone. Oh yeah and the DM feels we haven't succeded at the encounter thus far because we ran away, so no xp for anything yet.
Thanks!

[Roy]

Here's a fine suggestion. Get the fuck out. Power tripping douchebag is power tripping.

Seriously, what level is that encounter? And why would anyone think that's ok to pitch at such a gimp group? I think it's like... 6 level 9 creatures, 2 level 6 creatures, and I forget what level Ogre Mages are. Suffice it to say the encounter level is much higher than 11.

I could see it if you had more than one solid character there.

[Kaelik]

Not to mention they ban secret page and then the DM goes out of his way to steal all their equipment, especially the Wizard's spellbook.

The Dm doesn't understand WBL, doesn't understand CR, doesn't understand that D&D is about the players, not about a bunch of people running through a fixed storyline.

What the Hell, are you playing Dragonlance or some shit? And why did you guys let the Ogres raise dead you, you can just not do it and make new characters.

[TOZ]

[CatharzGodfoot]

Here's a fine suggestion. Get the fuck out. Power tripping douchebag is power tripping.

Some people game with their friends, or have to choose from a limited local selection. Sometimes having a game to play in is superior to not gaming at all.

[TOZ]

And sometimes, you're just wasting your time. But yeah, I can see that. I stuck with a bad DM for months because, despite the completely adversarial style, I actually felt I was earning the measly 50 or 100 XPs a night. So if you're managing to enjoy it, stick with it. But make sure you're actually enjoying it and not suffering for the sake of the game.