Single-use Items

[Roy]

That's not how Haste boots work.

And chances are you will get enough gold fodder to upgrade your +1 cloak to +2 before you actually find a +2 cloak and so forth.

Catharz: DMG. You just craft it and pay the difference in craft costs. So going from a +1 sword to a +1 vicious sword is 6k market price, so you pay 3k and 240 XP and you have your sword.

[Username17]

And chances are you will get enough gold fodder to upgrade your +1 cloak to +2 before you actually find a +2 cloak and so forth.

This is absolutely false. Or rather, it's true but so specifically and deceptively written that it might as well be a lie.

Yes, you will probably get the 3 grand in gold needed to get your cloak upgraded before you find a +2 cloak. But that isn't the only "permanent" item you are juggling. You've also got a stat booster, a weapon, and a suit of armor. Pretty much minimally. Chances are you have more than that.

And your chances of getting enough gold to upgrade each of those things before you find a bigger bonus for one of them is as close to zero as makes no odds.

-Username17

[Roy]

And chances are you will get enough gold fodder to upgrade your +1 cloak to +2 before you actually find a +2 cloak and so forth.

This is absolutely false. Or rather, it's true but so specifically and deceptively written that it might as well be a lie.

Yes, you will probably get the 3 grand in gold needed to get your cloak upgraded before you find a +2 cloak. But that isn't the only "permanent" item you are juggling. You've also got a stat booster, a weapon, and a suit of armor. Pretty much minimally. Chances are you have more than that.

And your chances of getting enough gold to upgrade each of those things before you find a bigger bonus for one of them is as close to zero as makes no odds.

-Username17

Except for that part about NPCs getting a quarter or a third as much cash as you, which means their wealth is spread thinner. And if it doesn't have triple standard, this is worse. So you're getting a lot of gold fodder, in the form of downgrades or things that are no better or worse than what you already have.

[Koumei]

Pfft, everyone knows humanoid NPC foes spend all their money on potions that they, using their precognitive powers, consume six seconds before running into you. Power boost!

(And kind DMs give clones of those potions as treasure despite the NPC consuming them. Unkind ones just sit there and laugh at how clever they are - for the next trick, when you DM for an evil party, give the dragon Vow of Poverty without the players murdering you)

[Fuchs]

Ah... I remember when one time the party had a disastrous run in with a bunch of slavers, and got captured, back in 2E, and discovered that their enemies, the surviving ones, had drunk all the party's healing potions that the party had not used in the fight the PCs had lost.

[hogarth]

In reality, purchasing permanent items of almost any kind is the trap, and the relatively good deal is getting wands. Weird but true. And that's before we take into account the fact that DMs are literally encouraged to hand out more treasure to parties who use more potions.

-Username17

I agree completely, although you still should choose the right tool for the right job. If you have a wand that you'll use less than 15 times, scrolls are cheaper, and if you have a wand that you'll use less than 7 times, potions are cheaper. And potions/scrolls are "pay as you go" as opposed to requiring a large up-front investment.

(Of course, partially charged wands blow everything away, if your DM allows you to buy those.)

[Username17]

Why would I ever buy a magic weapon when I can get a wand of caster level 20 Greater Magic Weapon for 900 gold per charge? Seriously, for the next 3 or 4 levels a party of 4 can run around with +5 weapons every adventuring day using just the trade-in value of +3 equipment.

Now what usually actually happens is that people with expendables fall into videogame thinking, where they "save" their stuff and don't use it. Then it's just like taking wealth and turning it into nothing by not using it until you're too high level to care. But if you do what you're "supposed to" and just charge ahead using expendables to rack up huge piles of excess loot that you spend on more expendables, it does work. It gets you through the levels much faster actually.

Except for that part about NPCs getting a quarter or a third as much cash as you, which means their wealth is spread thinner. And if it doesn't have triple standard, this is worse. So you're getting a lot of gold fodder, in the form of downgrades or things that are no better or worse than what you already have.

I know you don't actually use the official treasure guidelines, like at all. But when you're making pronouncements about what the rules say, you should use them. The rules say that an average 5th level encounter should have a 1 in 3 chance of having a d3 minor magic items.

That's basically 9 minor minor magic items that you find during 5th level. And during the same time you pick up an average of 328 gp worth of actual coins per battle, so about 4362 gold for the entire party. Enough money in short to upgrade one item on one character from +1 to +2. Everything else you own is either trade ins or stuff you find.

Now, of minor magic items, roughly half of them are +2 equivalents. So you find like 4. And you can make like 2 or 3 with the money you make from breaking down the total crap you don't care about and actual money. So no. You do not have a better chance of upgrading your shit by paying for it than by finding better stuff. Playing by the book - which I understand that you don't do - found stuff that is superior to your stuff outnumbers upgrades you can buy by about 50%.

-Username17

[Amra]

Why would I ever buy a magic weapon when I can get a wand of caster level 20 Greater Magic Weapon for 900 gold per charge? Seriously, for the next 3 or 4 levels a party of 4 can run around with +5 weapons every adventuring day using just the trade-in value of +3 equipment.

And in many ways, those weapons you just enchanted with a wand are actually better than their permanent equivalents, because they're less likely to fall prey to targeted dispel magics. Sure, you've got to blow another charge of the wand if the spell gets removed, but so what?

Also, you're not going to cry if your sword or whatever gets broken 'cos it's just a masterwork sword when all's said and done and you can just cast Mending and be back where you started. It's all good.

[Kaelik]

Also, you're not going to cry if your sword or whatever gets broken 'cos it's just a masterwork sword when all's said and done and you can just cast Mending and be back where you started. It's all good.

Actually, it's not even a masterwork. You can GMW a freaking regular sword. So yeah, you can just throw those things around like candy if you don't need to pass material DR that day.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Catharz: DMG. You just craft it and pay the difference in craft costs. So going from a +1 sword to a +1 vicious sword is 6k market price, so you pay 3k and 240 XP and you have your sword.

Ah, found it. Page 288. Actually, it looks like swords are pretty much the only cost effective thing to upgrade. Any slotted item (armor, stat boosters, etc) adds an extra 50% price hike when you upgrade it.

[hogarth]

Catharz: DMG. You just craft it and pay the difference in craft costs. So going from a +1 sword to a +1 vicious sword is 6k market price, so you pay 3k and 240 XP and you have your sword.

Ah, found it. Page 288. Actually, it looks like swords are pretty much the only cost effective thing to upgrade. Any slotted item (armor, stat boosters, etc) adds an extra 50% price hike when you upgrade it.

Note that in the Magic Item Compendium, they added rules for adding abilities to certain items (stat boosters, cloaks of resistance, etc.) without a surcharge.

[Roy]

Catharz: DMG. You just craft it and pay the difference in craft costs. So going from a +1 sword to a +1 vicious sword is 6k market price, so you pay 3k and 240 XP and you have your sword.

Ah, found it. Page 288. Actually, it looks like swords are pretty much the only cost effective thing to upgrade. Any slotted item (armor, stat boosters, etc) adds an extra 50% price hike when you upgrade it.

You're thinking of what happens when you add different properties. Like boots of speed and flight. Then you get a markup. But you don't with arms and armor. Unless you use MIC rules, then standard properties are ignored for mark up purposes (so you actually use things that aren't +x to y stat).

So a +6 Con +6 Wis amulet is 72,000 gold, exactly as much as these two items cost. Throw on a non standard property that costs 3k and it's now 75,000. Add on another and now you hit the mark up bits.

As for base enhancements, you don't buy those anyways. You load up on special properties and use GMW and Magic Vestment and so forth. And you don't buy wands for that because you can just set a low level spell slot and 14k on fire and pop a lesser chain rod charge to throw it on everyone every day. Which means you come out ahead on day 4... and this is without counting whatever you do with the OTHER two chain rod charges.

Also, either no one is going to hit your gear with dispels, or someone will hit all your gear with the same dispel via chain. And if the latter happens you're fucked, GMW or no GMW.

[CatharzGodfoot]

You're thinking of what happens when you add different properties. Like boots of speed and flight. Then you get a markup. But you don't with arms and armor. Unless you use MIC rules, then standard properties are ignored for mark up purposes (so you actually use things that aren't +x to y stat).

The example right there in the book of adding "additional properties" is upgrading a +1 sword to +2 vorpal.

[Roy]

You're thinking of what happens when you add different properties. Like boots of speed and flight. Then you get a markup. But you don't with arms and armor. Unless you use MIC rules, then standard properties are ignored for mark up purposes (so you actually use things that aren't +x to y stat).

The example right there in the book of adding "additional properties" is upgrading a +1 sword to +2 vorpal.

Which then says specifically there is no mark up on the next line.

And then it says mark ups do apply to items worn on the body, with the example given being deflection AC + invisibility (which MIC fixes later).

[CatharzGodfoot]

The example right there in the book of adding "additional properties" is upgrading a +1 sword to +2 vorpal.

Which then says specifically there is no mark up on the next line.

Which is because weapons don't occupy item slots.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

My next campaign I'm totally going to try for the 900 GP/charge +5 GMW Weapons Chained for the party with a Rod of Chaining if we make it to that high of a level.

The idea of having a +5 Holy (+2d6 against evil) Psychokinetic (+1d4 Force, hits ghosts, bypasses DR) Screaming (everyone loves +1d6 sonic damage) weapons is somehow amusing. You read that right... +5 Chained Holy Screaming Psychos.

I expect a DM banhammer to fall.

edit: cat post | sed -i s/"Sacred"/"Holy/