A New Organization of Spell Schools

[Caedrus]

Haven't quite filled out everything here yet, but here's the outline I'm looking at for schools in my new system. Note that mages in this system are working on a system more akin to psionics (with a system of preparation kinda like a swordsage that prepares from a spellbook) than vancian spellcasting.

The idea here is to make a more sensible delineation of spells. In 3.5e, you could pretty much describe *anything* as Transmutation or Conjuration. Abjuration didn't really make sense because it was describing a role (protection spells) as a school, even though other schools didn't work like that (and indeed, had their own share of spells that covered such roles). Enchantment got mostly rubbed out by anything mindless, Evocation wasn't meaningfully different from Conjuration on a flavor level, etc. Note that the new model isn't intended to divide up characters amongst strict roles, but they are better at some things than others.

Meet the Mages
I don't like the old schools. They overlapped in completely random ways and some were just way bigger than others in terms of roles and so forth. So here's a new model.

Elementalism

Pyromancer:
"Some people just want to see the world burn"
Pyromancers have the ability to create and manipulate fire.
You deal fire damage and light stuff on fire, deal blunt force damage and knock people around with explosions, and are generally a dangerous offensive monstrosity. You also can get some special effects like being able to rocket jump, discorporate into fire, make smoke, or imbue weapons with fierce inner heat. Due to the fact that most of the status effects from this school are "burning," which stacks with itself (I rewrote "on fire" as a tiered status effect like fear), along with the fact that it's mostly a blasting school, Fire is an effective and relatively simple option for newbies. Tactics often consist of lighting things on fire, then lighting them *more* on fire.

Hydromancer:
"What does water have to do with cold? Wouldn't it make more sense for the guy with control over temperatures, the pyromancer, to be able to freeze things by draining all the heat energy from the air?"
"Shut up, Steve."
Hydromancers manipulate water, and also can make stuff cold, just because that's traditionally stuff Waterbenders and the like do, regardless of what Steve says.
Water allows you to deal use ice to deal cold damage, freeze stuff, create barriers, or ice the ground to make it slippery (the new grease is a Hydromancer spell). It also allows you to manipulate water to create mist, fog clouds, violently dehydrate people (horrid wilting), purify bodies and cleanse status effects, or push people around with water pressure. You also get extra effects like being able to walk on water, breathe underwater, etc. Hydromancers are often good battlefield controllers, using things like ice storms and clouds to hamper mobility.

Aeromancer:
"Hey, who are you calling an airhead?"
Aeromancers can control air and wind, and manipulate atmospheric pressure to use lightning.
Aeromancy allows you to fly around by manipulating air currents, create sonic shouts, whisper on the wind, zap people with lightning, create hurricane force winds to move people around or deflect projectiles, and so forth. These casters have excellent mobility and good blasting power, and are generally good at knocking people around the map. While hydromancers often control by impeding movement, Aeromancers often control by moving you where they want you.

Geomancer:
"Rocks fall, you die."
Geomancers have control over earth and metals.
Geomancers are heavyweight casters. They armor themselves in stoneskin, stomp the ground to create difficult terrain in the area, use gravity spells to knockdown fliers (which is good, because they lose a lot of their powers if they're not in contact with the ground, kinda like Stone Dragon adepts in 3e), turn rock to mud, create walls of stone, petrify people, or lash out with stone spikes. Geomancers make solid tanks, boasting strong defensive powers and effective ability to limit enemy options. They don't get around the map as well as other elementalists, though.

Mesmerism

Enchanter:
"When I snap my fingers, you will bark like a dog."
Enchanters understand how minds work, and what motivates the actions of all things. And not just things with actual brains, because Enchanters totally get psychometry too and can alter the "motivations" and "desires" of objects, or mince the precise workings of magical latticework in their favor (for example, you can change the "simple commands" that a zombie or golem thinks it got from its master. Flavorwise, you are "manipulating the mind of magic," as magic is a pseudosentient force. Same logic for psychometry). Enchanters turn their enemies into allies and "inspire" their own allies in beneficial ways (though your allies might not always appreciate you fucking with their brains, even if it makes them into soldiers who can't feel pain or makes them act like they have the Triforce of Courage or whatever).

Illusionist:
"Now you see it, now you don't."
Where enchanters manipulate motivations, illusionists manipulate perceptions. They manipulate shadows (be they "shadows" of color, sound, or sensation) and make this "shadowstuff" seem real. Really good enchanters can just plain beat you up with "partially real" shadowstuff.

Mysticism

Seer:
"You like Castlevania, don't you?"
You can see stuff other people can't. You get goodies ranging from True Sight and Blindsight and Scry to True Strike and Destiny Dissonance and Read Psychic Impressions. You can gather information, buff, debuff, and even do damage with stuff like "recall agony." You deal with visions of the past, the present, and the future, in yourself and in others.

Thaumaturgist:
"Ah, magic in its purest form: A pure blunt force."
Mopping up the remains of Abjuration after things like "Fire Trap" and "Stoneskin" went off to their respective obvious places, as well as pure force-themed effects and universal spells, is the Thaumaturgist. The Thaumaturgist deals in arcane wards, dispels, and effects like Telekinesis. It's all about manipulating various magical force fields and ley lines just so.

The Dark Arts

Necromancer I (deadites):
"The dead aren't so bad... once you get to know them."

Necromancer II (debuffs & curses):
"Curses!"

(Possibly just one school, haven't figured out how many effects I want would fit in here)

Transmutation

Transmogrifist:
"I'm more than meets the eye."
The Transmogrifist is a master of his own form. You can disguise yourself, melt into a jelly to slip under a doorframe, turn into a bird to fly or scout, or turn into the beast of Darkova and eat people. The Transmogrifist is a buff fighter: He turns his arms into swords and dives into battle! The transmogrifist's various forms have various advantages and disadvantages, and many transmogrifists might be shifting their forms from round to round to try to keep the upper hand. The Transmogrifist can also occasionally transform other people, like Baneful Polymorph or Enlarge Person.

Alchemist/Transmuter:
"By mixing blue and yellow I have created an all-new color! I call it... Blellow!"

Conjuration

Summoner
"Say hello to my little friend"
Your talent is in making creature who actually do have talents show up. They can either be powerful monsters that take your place on the battlefield, requiring you to use your actions to play puppeteer, or they could be less powerful guys who act more like controller speedbumps or GW ritualist spirits or Evard's Black Tentacles. You also can summon stuff to you like your Secret Chest.

Translocator:
*Bamf*
If Summoning brings stuff to you, Translocation brings you to stuff. You can put yourself, and others, exactly where they need to be. Do stuff like Translocation Trick to switch that squishy backliner the rogue just snuck up to with the Defense-specced fighter. Or jump around like Nightcrawler. Or travel the planes. Speed people up with haste or slow them to a crawl with Slow.


_____________________

Effects-- Don't want one guy to have everything:

Das healings: Healing can be done by magical inspiration (Enchanters), Hydromancers (Maybe. Water is the spring of life, etc), Necromancers (masters of life and death energies), and Transmogrifists (Polymorph heals you!). Note that none of these spells are really traditional healing. Healing spells are things like "Trollform." It heals you *because you are now a troll and trolls regenerate.* You can break someone's brain with enchantment so that they won't feel pain, or you can absorb someone else's lifeforce with necromancy, or whatever, but there's no "Cure Light Wounds."

Flight: Flight can be managed by Pyromancers (rockets), Aeromancers (manipulate air currents. These guys are probably the best here), Transmogrifists (turn into a bird), and Thaumaturgists (telekinesis yourself or ride around on a tenser disc). Translocators get by with teleportation instead. Necromancers, Summoners, and Enchanters might be able to make a flying minion carry them.

(insert more categories)

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Build Your Own Beguiler
One idea is that the Wizard is actually, like the Psion of old, many classes in one. Its conceptual space is just so huge, and it obviously has more schools than my new Fighter or Rogue (at least when you're looking at those nice big subschools which are just as big as Fighter or Rogue schools). In this case, you just pick X schools (like 2-3), and those are your schools and everything else is prohibited without further character investment (through feats (for that "Expanded Learning" dabbling), the "extra school" talent, or outright *Multiclassing with Wizard* for a Wizard/Wizard multiclass, since you are actually building a new Beguiler-esque class every time). So you could be, say, a Pyromancer-Seer-Enchanter and be a fire mystic shaman. Or maybe an Enchanter-Illusiionist-something for a Beguiler. Or a Necromancy I-Necromancy II-something for a Necromancer (Yes, I need to rename the damn schools. Or maybe Necromancy should be kicked back to just one school...). On that thought, you might be able to get by with just handing out two schools initially...

But basically, everyone defaults to being a specialist and can sacrifice further character investment in order to spread out as a generalist.

___

So... Questions? Comments? Feedback? Suggestions?

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Actually... it works, or looks like it would.

Comments: Translocator needs to be rolled right into Thaumaturgist. The fact of the matter is that Translocators get some good spells, but they seriously get like 2/level and it makes you sad. Anyone that wants to take Translocator can instead take whatever specialist grants Tree Stride. Haste is probably a New Enchantment spell anyways.

Here is what you need to do, however: give 3 spells per specialist and use those as our base list. Explain to players that they can get 1 other spell that they can justify (this allows for some customization). This will cut down your classes into your base list.

Here is a start:
Pyromancer:
1 - Burning Hands, Lesser Orb of Fire, Produce Flame
2 - Scorching Ray, Combust, Heat Metal *
3 - Fireball, Darkfire, Fire Wings
4 - Flame Strike, Wall of Fire, Orb of Fire
5 - Inferno, Firebrand, Fireburst
6 - Fires of Purity, Fire Seeds, Summoon Large Fire Elemental
7 - Delayed Fireblast, Firestorm, Sunbeam
8 - Incendiary Cloud, *pick 2*
9 - Meteor Swarm, Transmute Rock to Lava, Summon Elder Fire Elemental

In this manner, a pyromancer can choose to summon small fire elementals at lower levels, or go for smoke manipulation, or more maneuverability (Fire Wings), or to the Light Manipulation side. The beguiler gets roughly 3 schools at roughly 5 each. So, using the custom-selected 3 schools and the custom-selected 4 (and probably 1 extra for all of them combined) each you should be covered.

*Flameblade not included because it sucks (Darkfire and Produce Flame cover this gap significantly better)

So a level 1-3 Air/Fire/Summoner has something like:
Lesser Orb of Lightning, Wall of Smoke, Updraft, Arrow Mind*
Burning Hands, Lesser Orb of Fire, Produce Flame, Animate Fire*
Summon Monster 1, Summon Natures Ally 1, Summon Undead 1, Mount*
- Bonus choice - Slow Burn/Raging Flame (2-for-1, because they are the same fucking spell)

And honestly, that feels about right.

Also, your "get a bonus specialty" needs to be something along the lines of Bonus Domain, where they can cherry-pick 1 (of 3) spells off the chosen domain, and their 1-bonus can come from the alternate specialty.

[Psychic Robot]

Wow. That's a pretty darn good system right there. The one thing I don't like is the term "mesmerism," but that's a very tiny nitpick.

[Caedrus]

Lots of stuff

I intend to expand the scope of Translocation and Divination (For example, pretty much all the psionics stuff for Seers is in there), but yeah, I'll have to see how even the available spell counts turn out..

Incidentally, note that I am making up new spells, or altering old ones. I think I hinted at this some implicitly in the first post, but it's worth making clear. So issues like "Flameblade sucks" doesn't really matter. I can just make a new Flameblade that doesn't suck. Actually a good number of spells are changed around, because I've been arranging a lot of things thematically. For example, I always found Fireball rather *thematically* overpowered, in that it creates a really massive fiery explosion (40 feet diameter sphere!) that you can lay down from half a mile away, and rather mechanically inadequate (it doesn't set things on fire OR provide an explosive force). I rewrote it as a significantly more powerful but also higher level spell. Also, the spells all scale in a way somewhat similar to psionics, so the spell levels are organized in a psionics-esque way. That is to say, you have things with the narrowest and simplest thematic properties on the bottom (like "single target energy ray." Like Scorching Ray before it scales to multi-rays) and are getting things like area effects higher up. And things like Polar Ray are really just a scaled up Ray of Frost. Therefore, as you're going up in levels, it's not just a question of numbers or scaling caps going up, you're actually looking at differences in the *kinds of stories* you can tell ("I can fight armies by snapping my fingers" is reserved for someone higher levels than it was in 3.5e), and you can figure out the differences more easily than you could in 3.5e where you totally could have 5th level players wipe out a battalion with a fireball but be unable to knock a house down with explosives.

Also, with response to your further comments, note that you actually are picking a limited number of spells, as opposed to getting all spells on a list. I just meant "build your own Beguiler" in the sense that you are making a character that is picking spells from only a few schools. The goal here is more versatility in build, but not so much versatility in play as many old casters. Though: I was actually looking at putting about 4 spells per subschool in each "Spell Level" (there are still 9, plus cantrips).

In this manner, a pyromancer can choose to summon small fire elementals at lower levels, or go for smoke manipulation, or more maneuverability (Fire Wings), or to the Light Manipulation side.

Definitely! I like it.

Actually... it works, or looks like it would.

Wow. That's a pretty darn good system right there. The one thing I don't like is the term "mesmerism," but that's a very tiny nitpick.

Thanks! I'm not actually too comfortable with the naming schemes myself, truth be told. If you have any suggestions for names, feel free to offer them.

Incidentally, if you want to see more of the stuff for my new system, just follow the link in my sig. All the stuff that I've moved public is on the Game Theory forum.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

You can make up your own, and it will work well. Coincidentally, I think Fire Wings is your jetpack spell...

Also, you should probably just not have level 0 spells, instead opting for a domain choice. Something along the lines of:

Air - you have mastery of air and can make up to a swift gust of wind as a standard action in any direction (this has no numerical effect, but may be used to steer sailing vessels, provide fresh air in a tunnel, disperse noxious fumes, chase away storm clouds, etc.).

Fire - you have mastery of fire and can control the direction of a fire as a standard action (a fire directed inward for a decent time period will burn itself out)

Enchantment - you make take a standard action to give someone a -2 penalty to skill checks and saving throws. This effect ends at the end of your next turn.

Geomancer - The rocks yield to your touch, you gain a climb speed of 10 when climbing on rocks.

Seer - You may take a standard action to grant up to your class level on your next die roll.

Thamaturgist - you make take a standard action to blast someone with arcane force damage. This always hits (including the Ethereal plane, as Magic Missile), and does damage equal to your character level. You may take AoOs with this.

Necromancer I (deadites) - you gain a touch attack that does your character level in negative energy damage (heals undead). You may make AoOs with this.

Necromancer II (debuffs & curses) - you may take a standard action to make a target shaken (no save, Mind affecting).

Transmogrifist - as a standard action, you can grant yourself or willing subject +4 to any base stat for 1 round/level.

Alchemist/Transmuter - All potions have +200% (3x) their normal duration (maximum 1 day) if they have a duration, or +50% numerical effect if they do not.

Summoner - By taking twice the normal casting time on a summoning, you may grant creature(s) +1/2 your level on all base stats.

Translocator - You may teleport 10' as a swift action.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Side note: if you can't come up with 3/level, then it is probably a good "extra" choice. Prismatic, for instance, is an excellent optional, but terrible primary. Optional choices probably shouldn't get the ability, either (you don't for Arcane Disciple and similar).

[Caedrus]

Also, you should probably just not have level 0 spells, instead opting for a domain choice.

Why not have both? You can pick cantrips, but they're basically at-will.

Incidentally, since we're talking about cantrips, here's the old ones and where I would put them:

Thaumaturgy:
-Mage Hand (Open/Close is subsumed by this)
-Arcane Mark
-Prestidigitation
-Resistance

Pyromancy:
-Flare (Dazzles)
-Cinder (Burning Talent, from my old cantrips thread)
-Light

Hydromancy
-Ray of Frost
-Create Water
-Purify Food and Drink (alternatively, in Alchemy)

Aeromancy
-Dancing Lights (Wild Spark, from my old cantrips thread)
-Message (Whispering Wind)
-Something kinda like Mage Hand

Geomancy
-Acid Splash
-Caltrops (you make little spikes on the ground, instead of actually summoning cantrips)

Enchantment
-Disrupt Undead
-Daze (or Distract)

Necromancy
-Touch of Fatigue
-Achromic Touch (another one of mine)

Divination
-Detect Magic
-Detect Poison
-Read Magic
-Know Direction

Illusion
-Ghost Sound
-Merill's Paintbrush (another one of mine)

Transmutation
-Mending
-Amanuesis
-Purify Food and Drink (alternatively, in Hydromancy)

Summoning
-

___

Of course, might make up some new ones, alter old ones, combine them, etc...

[SunTzuWarmaster]

You will actually be able to give a Pryomancer all of the spells on that list and not significantly add to his versatility in play.

Although a Pyromancer or Summoner will have a number of different ways to set people on fire or summon monsters, they will still be fairly inept at the challenges that they face. There is no real reason to give a player a list like the created above and tell them "well, you selected Produce Flame, so you can't get Flame Blade".

Saying "Summon Natures Ally, Summon Monster 1, Summon Undead" choose 1 makes very little difference. They can have all of them and still suck at the challenge at hand (still have no long term flight, still cannot scale wall, still cannot sneak into building, still cannot charm the king). Your versatility is severely limited compared to old casters by having 3-4 themes. Having 3 spells in the same theme to choose from doesn't really add much tactical versatility (especially to non-theme-constrained casters).

[Caedrus]

You will actually be able to give a Pryomancer all of the spells on that list and not significantly add to his versatility in play.

Maybe. But the idea is to give people a lot of control over the exact flavor of their characters. If people want to actually spread out and cover 10 of the schools, *they can do that* with various tools, they just won't be getting all of the spells on that list. The balancing factor here is that by grabbing 10 schools, they won't be taking the talents and such that up the power of a single school's spells, and thus will be taking a hit to straight power in order to gain such versatility.

I've been messing around with this for a while now, and this way just seems smoother. One of my goals is to kind of give players comparable versatility to nearly a classless system, while still maintaining the pros of the class system. One issue is that if you give people a lot of concurrent abilities from a single choice (like "Fire School") then you're actually losing versatility and customization in build and diversification of concepts. If you have a system where all pyromancers get the same stuff, all the Firebenders in the world all have the exact same fire powers when they're at the same level, and I don't want that. Moreover, having people pick spells means that it's much easier to just add new powers into the game whenever you feel like it, and stuff doesn't get incredibly more cumbersome from supplementing the system. If you have an "all powers from the school" setup, adding new powers to the school boosts the power of a school (see "Clerics get Broken With Supplements") OR you have to have a system of "expanded knowledge" to get the supplemental spells, which just puts an unnecessary tax on ideas that people came up with *later* in development of the system.

___

Also: you get a lot of spells known. If you're putting all your spells known into firebending, you're not actually too worried about whether you have to pick between produce flame and flame blade. You can get both. If you get only 2 spells per level (like in 3e) you already are getting every fire spell (at 4 spells per level) by just investing those all into fire spells. The deal with the Wizard is that they have tons of spells known, but they only can have a limited number (around 8, following the "chunking" design idea) readied at any given time, and that there are a ton of spells if you choose to diversify out into other schools. In fact, I've not entirely removed the ability to just put more spells in your spellbook.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Also, you should probably just not have level 0 spells, instead opting for a domain choice. Something along the lines of:

Air - you have mastery of air and can make up to a swift gust of wind as a standard action in any direction (this has no numerical effect, but may be used to steer sailing vessels, provide fresh air in a tunnel, disperse noxious fumes, chase away storm clouds, etc.).

Fire - you have mastery of fire and can control the direction of a fire as a standard action (a fire directed inward for a decent time period will burn itself out)

Enchantment - you make take a standard action to give someone a -2 penalty to skill checks and saving throws. This effect ends at the end of your next turn.

Geomancer - The rocks yield to your touch, you gain a climb speed of 10 when climbing on rocks.

Necromancer II (debuffs & curses) - you may take a standard action to make a target shaken (no save, Mind affecting).

Transmogrifist - as a standard action, you can grant yourself or willing subject +4 to any base stat for 1 round/level.

Thamaturgist - you make take a standard action to blast someone with arcane force damage. This always hits (including the Ethereal plane, as Magic Missile), and does damage equal to your character level. You may take AoOs with this.

Necromancer I (deadites) - you gain a touch attack that does your character level in negative energy damage (heals undead). You may make AoOs with this.

Translocator - You may teleport 10' as a swift action.

Nice. You could switch enchantment and hexing, but that's a good lineup.

Summoner - By taking twice the normal casting time on a summoning, you may grant creature(s) +1/2 your level on all base stats.

This probably shouldn't exist, as summoning spells should be balanced to be used only by summoners.

Seer - You may take a standard action to grant up to your class level on your next die roll.

A bonus equal to your level will probably be overpowered out of combat in a balanced system.

[TarkisFlux]

So, you're doing an "everybody builds their own class list" setup... You've already said that you're not going to do a cast anything on the list setup, so what sort of casting paradigm are you considering with these cut down lists?

Also, are you planning on keeping the arcane/divine division? It doesn't look like it, but it'd be nice to know.

[Caedrus]

So, you're doing an "everybody builds their own class list" setup

Not exactly. Just that you get to pick a small number of schools to have access to originally. It's like Specialists in 3e, but more.

Also, are you planning on keeping the arcane/divine division?

Kind of. I am planning on making a cleric class as well as a wizard class. But the Cleric isn't particularly more different from the Wizard than the Sorcerer is (which I'm also making). The point of different classes in this system is not role differentiation so much as having a different playstyle and casting system, as well as thematic differences. So: Not everything is on the same systsem like 4e. Instead, it's like 3.5e in that a wizard plays different than a psion plays different than a warblade plays different than a crusader, not just because of different lists of powers but because their casting systems (way of using their powers) are different. However, the rules between these things are still being designed to be compatible for synergistic multiclassing. Clerics are going to be kinda like Binders. While Wizards prepare spells from a spellbook (albeit not in the old vancian way, as I've explained), Clerics make pacts with and embody outside powers, be it shamanistic spirits, demons, some god, or whatever. Sorcerers have a sort of "arcane charge / resonance" combo system. Bards are going to be something like an expansion of Eela6's Seeker of the Song, with a rhythmic combat flow.

The system I laid out here is just for the Wizzies.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

A bonus equal to your level will probably be overpowered out of combat in a balanced system.

Actually, that was the point. The idea was that the Seer would be as good (slightly worse) as a focused character at things that took a great amount of time (alchemy, research, lockpicking without pressure, etc.), but that in any realtime situation they would take too long.

Perhaps a 1 minute time lag? Or do you suggest something different altogether?

[CatharzGodfoot]

A bonus equal to your level will probably be overpowered out of combat in a balanced system.

Actually, that was the point. The idea was that the Seer would be as good (slightly worse) as a focused character at things that took a great amount of time (alchemy, research, lockpicking without pressure, etc.), but that in any realtime situation they would take too long.

Perhaps a 1 minute time lag? Or do you suggest something different altogether?

The seer can already do pretty much everything (buff, direct damage/SoDs, social interaction, and divinations). Letting them do anything so long as they have a round or a minute to prepare isn't excessive by current 3e rules, but is probably too much for any system that is remotely balanced.

[Username17]

Thanks! I'm not actually too comfortable with the naming schemes myself, truth be told. If you have any suggestions for names, feel free to offer them.

Better names for mind magic abound. Glamour, Domination, Mentalism, Chicanery, Beguilement, Stevery, Witching.

Saying "Summon Natures Ally, Summon Monster 1, Summon Undead" choose 1 makes very little difference. They can have all of them and still suck at the challenge at hand (still have no long term flight, still cannot scale wall, still cannot sneak into building, still cannot charm the king). Your versatility is severely limited compared to old casters by having 3-4 themes. Having 3 spells in the same theme to choose from doesn't really add much tactical versatility (especially to non-theme-constrained casters)

If we're doing D&D stuff, the conjurers have the same problem that conjurers in D&D always have: they suck until they are too good. As they advance, they get a bigger army that lasts longer and is made of monsters that are individually more versatile and powerful. Right about the time you upgrade from level 8 (several rounds per day of Lantern Archoning, which I point out would probably be over powered at 2nd or 3rd level!) to level 9 (several fucking Djinn at your beck and call dropping walls of stone here and there while your demon girlfriend charmlocks everyone stuck in pillaries so that your army of monstrosity always increases in size...) the game pretty much goes right off a cliff.

Conjuring probably wants to be done more like the old Pokemaster and not like a spellcaster at all.

-Username17

[Lago PARANOIA]

4E summoning was one of the very few things the edition got right.

Mind, it's not perfect by any means and the introduction of several ways to make it overpowered again (such as making druid companions not use up anyones' actions) is creating the old situation again.

But yeah, Pokemaster. Summoning should be a combination of throwing down several tokens with small but weak effects (sort of like buff/curse zones, but summoning-flavored and moveable) and having a Pokemon you have to sacrifice actions to use.

[ckafrica]

For summoning couldn't you go more down the psionic ectoplasmic creatures path, which were generic by level but you could select different powers for each one you summoned. You could create special templates for the different themes (such as elemental or undead etc....) but generally just being always level appropriate.

I'm not sure how good a job they did in the EPH but conceptually I think it might be what we want as it eliminates dumpster diving

[Murtak]

The idea here is to make a more sensible delineation of spells. In 3.5e, you could pretty much describe *anything* as Transmutation or Conjuration.

[snip]

So... Questions? Comments? Feedback? Suggestions?

How is your writeup any different from the problems with old Transmutation/Conjuration? I can describe next to anything as a fire/cold/illusion effect. If you want to redo spell schools do it right - write up the mechanics for each school first and then assign spells according to these mechanics, even if that means altering flavor text.

[Username17]

How is your writeup any different from the problems with old Transmutation/Conjuration? I can describe next to anything as a fire/cold/illusion effect. If you want to redo spell schools do it right - write up the mechanics for each school first and then assign spells according to these mechanics, even if that means altering flavor text.

Indeed. Without a strong metaphysical basis firmly fixed in your campaign world, elemental assignments are completely meaningless. You could arrange them pretty much however you felt like.

Why would a spell be "water?" Can I use it to calm emotions with a spell called something like "serene water?" How about do exactly the opposite with a spell called "raging torrent?" Or how about an instant death spell called "turn to goo" or "liquefy flesh?" Can I just up and summon a water elemental? How about animating some lake water? Scrying with a scrying pool? How about I dispel enchantments with "cleansing rain?"

Schools with special effects based limits will never work in an open spell list system, because you can make any spell have the same mechanics but have a different special effect. How many spells properly belong in Divination or Conjuration or Evocation but are instead in Necromancy because they happen to be spooky?

My serious suggestion is to line up all the effects you want in the game, then put them into completely arbitrary groups that are roughly game balanced and tactically interesting. Then you can give them elemental special effects or some other unifying schticks such that they will seem to belong together in your system. But to start, the categories should have place holder names so that you don't prejudice yourself and end up making one shitty or overpowered for supposedly thematic reasons. I suggest using the following placeholder names:

• Stevery
• Nancymancy
• Karlocation
• Sarament
• Gregging
• Dianation
• Johnassory

And yes, I am dead serious.

-Username17

[Caedrus]

Indeed. Without a strong metaphysical basis firmly fixed in your campaign world, elemental assignments are completely meaningless. You could arrange them pretty much however you felt like.

I have a metaphysical basis, and it's summarized in the post. What do you think I need to elaborate on, specifically?

Why would a spell be "water?" Can I use it to calm emotions with a spell called something like "serene water?" How about do exactly the opposite with a spell called "raging torrent?" Or how about an instant death spell called "turn to goo" or "liquefy flesh?"

No. You can't transmute stuff like flesh into water, and you can't do mind control. That wouldn't fall in the boundaries of what I described in the first post.

Can I just up and summon a water elemental?

I'm debating that. Maybe, since you're creating a being of pure animate water, and that kinda fits with the definition I gave. In that case, Summoning wouldn't get it (as summoning sticks mostly to grabbing all those fiendish and celestial sorts with summon monster).

How about animating some lake water?

Yes, that would fall within the boundaries of what I described in the first post.

Scrying with a scrying pool?

No. That wouldn't fall in the boundaries of what I described in the first post.

How about I dispel enchantments with "cleansing rain?"

No. That wouldn't fall in the boundaries of what I described in the first post.

In all the things I answered "no" to, you're not really creating or moving around water, or using cold, and that's what I described the school as doing. Transforming stuff into water, spell effects that merely use water as a focus or something, or calming people's emotions is straight out. I really have no idea how you got the idea from my first post that "anything with the word water in the name or in the description goes here," because that's not what's being done at all.

My serious suggestion is to line up all the effects you want in the game, then put them into completely arbitrary groups that are roughly game balanced and tactically interesting.

That was the general notion of what I was doing, Frank. I looked at all the D&D effects, and some stuff I wanted to add, and split it up, and arranged for rough tactical schticks (which I pointed at in the first post). Still need to finalize lists of stuff, but there you have it. The key difference, though, is that it's not arbitrary. I tried to line up those effects with consistent metaphysical themes that align with things people seem to want to play, or that I see in setups in media.

[Murtak]

Indeed. Without a strong metaphysical basis firmly fixed in your campaign world, elemental assignments are completely meaningless. You could arrange them pretty much however you felt like.

I have a metaphysical basis, and it's summarized in the post. What do you think I need to elaborate on, specifically?

You got rid of some of the issues but mainly your schools read like flavor text to me. Frank suggests culling the entire spell list down to effects you like and then grouping those into schools, based on whatever criteria are handy.

If you want to, say, keep elemental schools you could do what I did for my groups confrontation rewrite: assign purely mechanical categories and then assign spells to those. Example:
Fire: Direct Damage, Strength Boosts
Earth: Battlefield Shaping, AC Boosts
Water: Summoning, Attack Boosts
Air: Movement, Temporary Hit Points

And then Bull's Strength is a fire spell while Summon Monster is a Water spell.

Both approaches should work. With Frank's approach you have the advantage of not retroactively having to invent/cull spells to get similar numbers (or at least not much will be needed) while my approach lets you decide the categories in advance.

[Mr. Bane]

There was this old game I was playing where the devs and I were talking about taking about the differing aspects seen in the Elementals.

Earth = Safe haven, defending, stubborn, encompassing, rising, basic, stabilizing.

or

Earth = Dark, brooding, slow moving, spying, deep, powerful, large, dirty, unclean.

These are two different view points, one is clearly an aspect of good and one is clearly an aspect of evil. Here's another example:

Fire = Burning, raging, destructive, fast, searing, purging.

or

Fire = Clear, lighting, invigorating, warming, bright, pride.

Either way, with my Fantasy rewrite of FATE I am very interested in this thread.

[Mr. Bane]

Continued thinking:

Elements (In my opinion) should be the core of magic schools instead of extra schools themselves. Each Element has a Light, Dark, and Neutral side. The Dark side perverts the light. For instance, the Dark side of Earth is Reusing. Now, this might not be real clear until you realize that in the natural order of things you come from earth, walk the earth, then die in the earth. The perversion of this (if you haven't already figured out) is Necromancy. The denial of returning to the Earth. Fire on the other hand cleans the land to allow new things to grow (Healing spells) while destruction removes without cause (Fireball, etc).

Elements As Core

Earth
:: Dark ::
[*] Reusing
:: Neutral ::
[*] Watching
:: Light ::
[*] Creating

Fire
:: Dark ::
[*] Destroying
:: Neutral ::
[*] Altering
:: Light ::
[*] Cleaning

Air
:: Dark ::
[*] Weakening
:: Neutral ::
[*] Moving
:: Light ::
[*] Strengthening

Water
:: Dark ::
[*] Interrupting
:: Neutral ::
[*] Neutralizing
:: Light ::
[*] Focusing

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Mr. Bane: http://www.geocities.com/televisioncity ... ntlike.wav

[Mr. Bane]

Totem doesn't like that, what is it? At least use "No Thanks" bear.

[Crissa]

I think that the schools should depend upon culture. They're arbitrary divisions, not really backed up by world mechanics in any meaningful way.

Nor do I understand the reason for 'Fire' mages or 'Ice' mages.

-Crissa