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[Lago PARANOIA]

You know what, the 'how you got into D&D' is an interesting enough story that I don't want it being lost in the flames.

So I'm starting a separate thread.

[Quantumboost]

Not a meaningful distinction. Unless you're trying to tell me Efreeti binding didn't exist, there was already a such thing as infinite wishes long before you can actually cast Wish on your own, and it was introduced in 3.0 since before that, even if you could get one Wish was the fuck you lololol spell so you didn't care.

So basically, by "inferior in every way", you mean "inferior in every way that I personally care about".

Except that the change to wish actually *is* meaningful. It means that instead of "I can bind X Efreeti per day and get X*15,000 gp per day or a total of +X bonuses to my stats, capped out at +5 per stat", it's "I bind one Efreet and get all the magic items I want ever, thus winning the game".

Chain-binding Efreet in 3.0 isn't as much of a big deal, it's just another way to expose the "Gold = Power" problem - you still have to get many small pieces of wealth and combine them into a bigger piece of wealth to trade for a powerful item. It's the same underlying problem as spamming fabricate or just having a job, but faster.

More Wishes is a problem in and of itself, regardless of the wealth-gold conversion, which means that 3.5 is *not* strictly better than 3.0.

Which was what was to be demonstrated.

[Roy]

Fail. It's an Infinite Loop. By definition, it doesn't get better than that. Having another, identical Infinite Loop is meaningless. Either way, you auto win.

[Quantumboost]

Fail. It's an Infinite Loop. By definition, it doesn't get better than that. Having another, identical Infinite Loop is meaningless. Either way, you auto win.

Or:

Fail. It's a crash bug. By definition, it doesn't get worse than that. Having another, identical crash bug is meaningless. Either way, you crash.

Illogic detected and demonstrated.

For the purpose of *fixing* the infinite loops, it very much does matter if you have more than one, even superficially similar ones, so long as the underlying cause is different. You can fix the infinite-wealth-via-chain-binding by decoupling wealth from power. The same goes for infinite-wealth-via-fabricate and infinite-wealth-via-farming-as-an-elf. They're the same underlying issue and are fixed by the same change.

You *can't* fix the More Wishes loop with wealth-power decoupling. It's the result of one single spell-like wish giving you the ability to get a single arbitrarily powerful item. It means that you can wish for any magic item right out of the box, including a Ring of Infinite Divinely Quickened Wishes (and hence infinite Crafted Contingencies and infinite other magic items, leading directly to The Wish).

The fix is to return wish to the 3.0 version, which means that 3.5 is worse off for its "fix" to wish. Hence, not strictly better. Hence, my point.

Both are fixed in Tome, so in practice for us here it's a moot point, but this is about 3.0 vs. 3.5.

[Korwin]

Spell DC stacking got better (less powerful) with 3.5.

[Psychic Robot]

Wish loops don't really count because nobody (save for .1% of the D&D population) will use or allow them. Haste granting extra spells was far more of a problem than something that the majority of DMs will ban.

[RandomCasualty2]

Wish loops don't really count because nobody (save for .1% of the D&D population) will use or allow them. Haste granting extra spells was far more of a problem than something that the majority of DMs will ban.

Not to mention that most campaigns won't even go high enough for wish to become a factor.

[Username17]

Haste actions were available cheap as bonuses on shields, and stacked very nicely with full attacks because in 3.0 there were partial charges to use with haste actions. Haste wasn't a problem in 3.0 and 3.5 wasn't a fix.

Add to the travesty of the weapon sizing fiasco, the cover fubar, and the charge revision shit, and 3.5 was a substantial roll back. Hell, warriors were flat better off under 3.0 rules.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Haste actions were available cheap as bonuses on shields, and stacked very nicely with full attacks because in 3.0 there were partial charges to use with haste actions. Haste wasn't a problem in 3.0 and 3.5 wasn't a fix.

It was a problem because it was a must take spell and was ridiculously powerful compared to any other 3rd level spell.

I mean hell, even if haste were a 7th or 9th level spell, people would still take it. It was just that good. You just couldn't compete at all without haste. For casters, it was literally double the offensive power, and it kept scaling up, because your spells always got better. 3.0 haste was just plain obscene in terms of power.

3.5 did what it should have done with haste. Make it a fighter buff and that's it.

As far as fighters being better off in 3.0, they really weren't. Casters benefited more from haste than they ever did. And while the improved crit stacking with keen was nice in 3.0 most groups never even got that far, since you had to be level 9 to get improved crit, and by then 3.0 casters were dual casting 4th and 5th level spells. Power attack in 3.0 was pretty horrible, since you didn't get the x2 with a two handed weapon. Not to mention casters got a bunch of perks like +2 DC spell focus and empowerable Fox's Cunning. 3.0 was a terrible edition to be a warrior of any kind in. You just got kicked in the balls left and right.

[IGTN]

If you upped the levels on the Invisibility line of spells and their counters (See Invisible, True Seeing, and the like, and nerfed monster Blindsight/Tremorsense/etc.), people would still take them.

3.0 Haste said "now that you're level 5, the game is different," and then continued to change it gradually until you could cast is every fight, and raising the level would just postpone the changes. The spell scales indefinitely, since it scales with the value of your actions, and those get more valuable indefinitely by definition (in D&D. A system where high-level characters get more actions, but individual actions have the same, or similar, value at all levels is possible). Postponing the game change to level 13, or level 17, or whenever doesn't change that.

If Invisibility and See Invisible were 5th level spells, Invisibility Sphere & Purge were 6th level, Improved Invisibility was 7th level, and True Seeing was 9th level, and monster senses were adjusted accordingly, people would still cast those spells.

If See Invisible, Invisibility Purge, and True Seeing were moved up on their own, people would still cast them.

This is because they're game-changer spells, and their level is just a gatekeeper. Raising the level delays the game-changer, but it never becomes too expensive.

[RandomCasualty2]

3.0 Haste said "now that you're level 5, the game is different," and then continued to change it gradually until you could cast is every fight, and raising the level would just postpone the changes.

Well really, it should have been some kind of capstone ability if at all, because it turned a game that was already super deadly into something ridiculously deadly.

Honestly, I don't think the spell should even exist. Geometrically scaling spells, along with extra spells per round is just bad game design. Unless you put some kind of control on what spells can be cast, that's bad. Giving people a 3rd level spell and a 1st level spell per round may work, but just blatantly doubling their number of spells per round is insane.

The power leap between level 4 and level 5 was absurd.

If See Invisible, Invisibility Purge, and True Seeing were moved up on their own, people would still cast them.

This is because they're game-changer spells, and their level is just a gatekeeper. Raising the level delays the game-changer, but it never becomes too expensive.

There are plenty of reasons not to take the aforementioned spells though. If you don't' expect to run into invisible monsters, you probably would rather just have more generic defense or offense spells rather than anti-invisibility. See invisibility isn't a stock spell that you see on every casters prepared spells since the first level they get it. Really it's a spell slot that they may dump on the spell when they're mostly using 3rd and 4th level for offense. People don't go running to grab see invis and invisibility purge, or even true seeing as their must take spell. Such spells may in fact be totally useless in the quest.

3.0 haste was literally on every caster's list of prepared spells all the time. It was an absolute must take and it helped you in all battles. Therefore literally everyone took it.

Haste wasn't a spell like identify that did a specific purpose and you needed it for that purpose. It wasn't a specialty spell of any kind. It was a general purpose "pwn your enemies" ownage spell that was horribly overpowered. I mean damn, it doubled your offensive power at the cost of only a 3rd level slot with no drawbacks to casting it. You even got the extra action on the same round you cast it, so you didn't actually lose anything.

Arguably it could be used as one of those ridiculous capstone abilities at 20th level where you expect the game to end soon, but to do that earlier is like the game designers taking a lit stick of dynamite and shoving it up your ass.

To this day, I can't believe people actually defend 3.0 haste.

[Username17]

It was a problem because it was a must take spell and was ridiculously powerful compared to any other 3rd level spell.

I've seen this argument again and again, and it's bullshit. It has always been bullshit.

At fifth level you don't have enough spell slots to make dumping a haste to burn through them faster a good deal. At 11th level you do, but you also have access to 6th level spells so you're just going to Mass Haste the party instead. At that point the fact that it's nominally a Wizard spell isn't even super important. So there's a sweet spot at about 8th or 9th level when the Wizard briefly spends a couple battles a day going full battle spam. And you know what? So what?!

You know who was a better spellcaster? The Wizard who invested in a lot of Webs and Stinking Clouds and cast a battle spell every other round or so while his allies peppered enemies with arrows. That Wizard was more effective than the guy who threw two death spells a turn. High velocity spellcasting wasn't unbalanced, because it wasn't even what you wanted to do in most cases. The people who got fucked by removing haste actions are warriors, because they had their partial charge action taken away and their attacks don't normally cost anything meaningful. So higher action density always benefits a swordsman, while a Wizard actually does have an optimal spells/round rate that is very frequently less than 1 already.

3.5 Haste was not a Wizard Nerf. It was a Warrior Nerf.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Frank got the main thing, but this

3.0 haste was literally on every caster's list of prepared spells all the time. It was an absolute must take and it helped you in all battles. Therefore literally everyone took it.

is also not a valid argument. Everyone in the game takes Cloaks of Resistance. Actually everyone, not just people who cast spells. Does that make them broken? No, it makes them necessary.

D&D 3.x is fundamentally a 'you must be this high' system. In 3.0, at some point some people needed a Haste effect to be that high, just like they needed a Cloak of Resistance with an appropriate numeral attached.

[RandomCasualty2]

You know who was a better spellcaster? The Wizard who invested in a lot of Webs and Stinking Clouds and cast a battle spell every other round or so while his allies peppered enemies with arrows.

And the haste wizard can do that shit too, only twice as fast.

Pretty much the only time you don't want to burn more spells is if your one spell can win an encounter and you don't need anymore.

But at that point, seriously who gives a fuck. You're saying haste wasn't broken because wizards could already win an encounter in one spell? Sadly this is true of some encounters, but that doesn't suddenly mean that fighters are doing well. If the fight is over in 1 round, then the fighter doesn't have anything meaningful to contribute anyway.

And really, if the battles are that easy, you might as well just let the fighter handle that one anyway and save your spells for when you need to go nova. Nobody is saying you drop a haste on a couple of 1st level orcs. You save it for when you need it.

The problem is that the only time you dont' want to use haste is in a trivial fight. But in that case, you wouldn't be dumping a 3rd level slot anyway, so who gives a fuck.

D&D 3.x is fundamentally a 'you must be this high' system. In 3.0, at some point some people needed a Haste effect to be that high, just like they needed a Cloak of Resistance with an appropriate numeral attached.

Well, true, but people don't immediately go for a cloak of resistance of the highest bonus they can find to dump all their money. So while the CoR is a nice addition to a character, it's not the one thing people are willing to dump all their swag on because it's so awesome they absolutely must have the best one they can afford at each level.

But that's how haste worked. You took it over everything else. You got it ASAP. Honestly I'd probably by a headband of int or a magic sword over a cloak of resistance. Yeah you want the CoR, but it's not top priority.

[Username17]

You know who was a better spellcaster? The Wizard who invested in a lot of Webs and Stinking Clouds and cast a battle spell every other round or so while his allies peppered enemies with arrows.

And the haste wizard can do that shit too, only twice as fast.

So what?

What do you get out of throwing down Webs twice as fast?

Pretty much the only time you don't want to burn more spells is if your one spell can win an encounter and you don't need anymore.

But at that point, seriously who gives a fuck. You're saying haste wasn't broken because wizards could already win an encounter in one spell?

No. I'm saying that battlefield control doesn't really do anything "more" until the enemies have taken their moves to the edge of whatever the last control spell was. You talking about the glories of casting Webs twice as fast means that you serious do not get it. You cast a second web when, and only when the enemy gets to the edge of the current web. And that can take several turns. Casting an extra web before then is just spending extra spell slots to give the enemy more cover.

But that's how haste worked. You took it over everything else.

Even if that was true, which it isn't, it doesn't mean anything. A Cleric would give up all their equipment for a holy symbol. He doesn't have to, but he totally would if that was the choice. If you found that people were willing to spend high value resources for Haste (which is silly, but whatever), then all that means is that Haste is too expensive. Things which are mandatory like spellbooks, divine foci, and rations, should be practically free.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

So what?

What do you get out of throwing down Webs twice as fast?

Web multiple enemy groups, or ready a web spell to reweb someone who breaks out.

Even if that was true, which it isn't, it doesn't mean anything. A Cleric would give up all their equipment for a holy symbol. He doesn't have to, but he totally would if that was the choice. If you found that people were willing to spend high value resources for Haste (which is silly, but whatever), then all that means is that Haste is too expensive. Things which are mandatory like spellbooks, divine foci, and rations, should be practically free.

Well then why not just give everyone 2 standard actions then? I mean, if you're going to make it mandatory, then just give it to everyone.

I might not have as much of a problem if the game was based on having 2 actions, but it wasn't. Spellcaster power increases dramatically at each spell level anyway, and having some arbitrary point where it actually doubles in addition to its normal increase is bad for the game.

I mean seriously, take a level 4 wizard NPC and a level 5 wizard NPC. The difference in power level is fucking huge. Are you saying that's good game design? You're smarter than that.

Good game design doesn't include huge ass power discrepancies like that for no reason. If the concept of the game was to hand out two standard actions, that'd be fine. But it wasn't. Seriously, they expected haste to be a spell like any other, not one that the entire game would be built around, otherwise they'd have made spellcaster power drop off quite a bit at higher level spells, expecting people to cast two spells per round.

[Username17]

I mean seriously, take a level 4 wizard NPC and a level 5 wizard NPC. The difference in power level is fucking huge. Are you saying that's good game design? You're smarter than that.

What the fuck?

They have 3 level 3 spells. Are you seriously going to tell me that it's even worth considering spending one of them just to spend the other two over the next two rounds? They could just cast both their other level 3 spells over the same period and leave their third level 3 spell for something else. Haste actions are good and all, but they seriously are not all that. If you're casting the spell at level 5 it's because you're a dumbass in the vast majority of cases.

Spellcaster power increases dramatically at each spell level anyway, and having some arbitrary point where it actually doubles in addition to its normal increase is bad for the game.

Do Quicken Rods break the game? Yes or No?

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

They have 3 level 3 spells. Are you seriously going to tell me that it's even worth considering spending one of them just to spend the other two over the next two rounds?

As an NPC wizard? Fuck yeah. This is rocket fucking tag. You're not going to last long enough to actually cast all your spells one round at a time. You may live 3 rounds if you're very lucky.

Having a quick delivery system to blow your load is worthwhile.

Do Quicken Rods break the game? Yes or No?

Well, No. But remember that you could stack quicken rods with haste and quicken rods have a cap of how high a level spell you can use with them. So you have to spend more resources to quicken high level spells than low level ones. Haste doesn't have that. It's a 3rd level slot no matter what. Even if you want a 9th level spell.

[Crissa]

Quicken rods make the game annoying, not really better.

While fighters might've been better off under 3.0 and 3.0 Haste, that by no means meant 3.0 Haste was how you want it.

-Crissa

[Orion]

Note that even granting that 3.0 haste makes wizards twice as effective, it frequently made the warriors in our 3.0 game up to seven times as effective.

One of our Best combat characters was a Ratling Sohei/Rogue who ended up the campaign wiht a full attack which looked like: Scimitar X 3 (BAB) Dagger (TWF) Bite (ratling) Flurry of Blows (sohei) = 6 attacks.

Assuming he starts the round out of melee, because he killed his last opponent and we're fighting important enemies, ie casters, he can use his partial charge (which is sure to get him to an enemy thanks to more liberal 3.0 charge rules and 3.0 fly) to make one attack, then unload a full attack for 6 more, making a total of 7 attacks pretty much every round.

If he didn't have haste, he would be stuck charging for one attack.

[Murtak]

Assuming he starts the round out of melee, because he killed his last opponent and we're fighting important enemies, ie casters, he can use his partial charge (which is sure to get him to an enemy thanks to more liberal 3.0 charge rules and 3.0 fly) to make one attack, then unload a full attack for 6 more, making a total of 7 attacks pretty much every round.

If he didn't have haste, he would be stuck charging for one attack.

Seconded. Wizards can cast more spells and will eventually cast Haste every battle. In my campaigns this usually happened around level 10, when 3rd level slots finally aren't needed for the "I win" spells. Meanwhile the fighter types actually got their full attacks, which usually was a save or die effect too, just based on AC / miss chance. One that doesn't cost additional spell slots, which takes additional enemy actions to negate and which actually paints that big bull's eye on someone else for a change. So even if you end up casting Haste every battle, you should be casting it on your fighters.

[hogarth]

New Pathfinder preview up (the paladin):
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lacs

[Roy]

That's so terrible so as to not even evoke much comment. Seriously, how can you be so gimped as to only do 8-15, with terrible accuracy at level 13 and call that remotely worth a shit? And that's without using the Turtle Fail weapon. It's also without using the Sundertard abilities that for whatever incomprehensible reason that abortion of a character is using. All the usual issues with Sundertardation aside, they CAN'T even break their own stuff. The damage is too low. And when you can't even properly fuck yourself over with a character, you know that character is fucked over.

So instead I'm going to start discussing a different sort of Fail.

I seen this game recently. It basically starts with you getting snatched up, power tripping douchebag style and locked in a little cage box, minus all of your equipment. Just hurk durk lulz, you're captured no save now go explore the dungeon or something. Now, here's the thing. This was set in Eberron, where there's a lot less of that sort of wankery. And far more to the point, the PCs are level 20.

Now if you are anything at all like me, and even if you aren't you are asking yourself 'What the fuck would make someone do that?', 'Why the fuck would anyone think that would work at all even if someone actually did pull a mega wanker like that?', and perhaps most importantly, 'What the fuck?'

The author seems absolutely mystified as to the answer to these questions.

The fate that awaits those taken prisoners is a mystery that you don't want to uncover. But if you want to avoid sharing it, you need to find a way out.

Perhaps the level entry was a typographical error, and he meant to write '2', or perhaps even '0' because if he actually did mean '20' he is affronting the collective intelligence of everyone that reads that post.

Ok, so here's the lowdown. This is a 3.5 game, but I want to use some Pathfinder updates.

Oh, ok. That explains everything.

[Username17]

As an NPC wizard? Fuck yeah. This is rocket fucking tag. You're not going to last long enough to actually cast all your spells one round at a time. You may live 3 rounds if you're very lucky.

Having a quick delivery system to blow your load is worthwhile.

Look, you're nuts. I'll go slowly:

Without Haste:

• Round 1: Cast a third level spell.
• Round 2: Cast your second third level spell.
• Round 3: Cast your final third level spell.

With Haste:

• Round 1: Cast Haste, cast a second third level spell.
• Round 2: Cast your last third level spell, cast a second level spell.
• Round 3: Cast a second level spell, cast your third second level spell.

Without haste you fucking cast more third level spells in one fight because you seriously don't even have enough 3rd level spells to be ahead on that metric on any round of combat when you are hasted. The guy with no Haste is frankly ahead on the first round of combat because he casts one of three different offensive spells instead of one of 2. And he's ahead on the second round of combat because he's casting one of two remaining offensive spells instead of his last one.

In two rounds of blasting, Haste lets you trade having less 3rd level spell options in exchange for unloading an extra 2nd level spell on round 2. In three rounds of blasting it allows you to trade out a thirds level spell that you don't get for burning through three 2nd level spells. This is an incredibly shitty deal for a PC wizard, and frankly it's not even a good deal for an NPC wizard in most instances since they would have been better off burning their 2nd level slots low on pre-battle buffs and then blasting away the whole fight with 3rd level spells.

The fact that you think this is even approaching a no-brainer means that you are sriously clueless.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty2]

Without haste you fucking cast more third level spells in one fight because you seriously don't even have enough 3rd level spells to be ahead on that metric on any round of combat when you are hasted.

The flaw with your thinking is that you're assuming you always last at least 3 rounds. 3 rounds is the maximum you're going to last, and that's if you're very lucky. You've got to figure the average is more like 2, and sometimes 1. Even if you only last 1 round, getting the haste boost to AC is basically free and worth doing. And lets not forget that 3.0 haste granted a +4 to AC.

But shit man, this is 3.0, rocket launcher central, 3 rounds is a best case scenario.