Roleplaying in the 41st Millennium

[Elennsar]

Hello. New here, though I've been reading various threads for a while.

I'm wondering. What system could be used (more or less as is), or made, to fit a game of roleplaying a moderately combat heavy (this is Warhammer, after all) game in the 41st Milleninium.

Thinking of it being roughly high end Guard level. More or less what humasn on Earth can do (if often on the extremes, such as the guy who won two Victoria Crosses), but basically within the limits of humanity.

Inquisition based...go out and seek out things to do Inquisitoral things and do them. Hopefully with room for other things, but that may need different rules.

Chaos Space Marines might fall if you are very, very lucky or the Emperor is with you (gooooooood luck with that one), but they're very, very scary opponents and bigger, tougher, stronger, and faster than you.

Don't want to emphasis the "grim and dark" too far...the Imperium's survival is at least partially due to relatively ordinary humans, but it is a bleak setting. And relying on "heroes win", or even "heroes survive" is a terrible idea.

Not sure of anything concrete beyond that, at the moment. Questions if asked will be answered if possible.

[Cielingcat]

What about Dark Heresy?

[ubernoob]

What about Dark Heresy?

I'm pretty sure I played that game. Pretty lethal in the session I was in (died 3 times because I didn't really know how the rules worked).

[Elennsar]

Dark Heresy has a couple problems that annoy me.

1) Its too lethal. One shot kills as "you can die easily from one good hit" don't bother me, but I'd like more room to survive getting hurt.

2) Percentile dice. Somehow, that bothers me as a mechanic. I'd like to hear the feedback of those who have studied this more than I have on how they work so far as representing chance and skill and such, however.

3) Starting characters don't get many skills. Which means they roll pretty much everything with a 20% chance (not counting difficulty modifiers) at best.

4) The whole "1-4: 2 Fate Points. 5-8: 2 Fate Points. 9-10: 3 fate points." (and similar) kind of crap in chargen. Having random chance influence character power like that is very undesirable.

[Judging__Eagle]

Koumei's played it, so we'll wait for our resident "internet girl" to weigh in with her opinion. She had some good things to say about it, and she's all about GrimDark.

Even though she says that she weighs very little.

[which of course means that they must be a 300 lb neckbeard, lulz]

[Crissa]

She probably weighs less than I do.

And I weigh less than Frank.

And none of us are particularly portly...

-Crissa

[ubernoob]

She probably weighs less than I do.

And I weigh less than Frank.

And none of us are particularly portly...

-Crissa

Frank weights nearly double what I do, so there's a solid chance that I weigh less than all of you.

[Koumei]

Because I got addicted to energy drinks lately, I have a bit of a gut. If I can get my back and foot fixed, I'll tackle that by taking up Judo and Bushin Taijutsu. Then I'll not only be fit and healthy again, but I'll also be able to suddenly apply a triangle choke out of nowhere!

Anyway, now that the main topic (me) has been covered, I'll move onto the other thing.

GrimDark Heresy is indeed pretty damn lethal. They say the Adepta Sororitas career is more powerful than the others, and people look at it and say "I don't see how". Check out the armour the bolter bitches start with. That makes a nice difference in survival. And Nobleborn Priests have money coming out of their ears, so can afford good protection. Hell, they can probably hire people to get shot for them.

So that's a problem. I'm not entirely sure how you'd houserule that issue - just handing extra starting Wounds may or may not address this, or could also punt it over the other side where people don't care when giant rats try to bite their legs off.

---

Skills are also a bit sad to begin with, in many cases. That being said, remember that they assume normal conditions, and normal conditions is "Dim, flickering lights, and you're being shot at, and it's raining mud. Also, you're suffering stomach cramps from those mushrooms you ate last night."

So at least you don't usually have to go "Oh wait, but I need to add X and Y penalties because we're not in a brightly lit training room!"

Not that I don't prefer the d20 way of handling things, but it isn't too much of a problem. It works well enough if you don't go adding penalties for much.

---

Autofire will kill you. Hard. Be sad whenever someone switches a gun to autofire. Wet yourself if they whip out an assault cannon or vulcan heavy bolter basically any heavy weapon or anything from the IQ handbook.

---

It'd be supercool if Wounds and Faith/Fate could be just set at creation and not rolled randomly, and likewise, it'd be nice if there was a point-buy option. You have 9 stats, the average of 2d10 is 11, +1 because they gave you a reroll is a nice smooth 100 - a fairly conservative number for the benefit of being able to point-buy. I've known many to say 120-130 though. Whatever.

---

However, let's say you don't want to modify DH and want to use something else. Obvious choices are:

*Inquisitor (not bad. But seriously don't use Spess Merehns, you'll regret it. I've seen one completely regenerate a melta-bomb to the crotch in just 3 rounds.)

*Necromunda could actually work for this. I'm not sure how well, but it's worth considering. And I'm going to take this moment to say the House Esher minis I ordered look so awesome.

*Make something else up. Keep your design goals in mind, try to make sure it can't stop being what it's supposed to be, and that every player can do something useful most/all of the time.

[erik]

She probably weighs less than I do.

And I weigh less than Frank.

And none of us are particularly portly...

-Crissa

Frank weights nearly double what I do, so there's a solid chance that I weigh less than all of you.

Quadriplegic amputee counts as cheating. Get to the back of the line.

[ubernoob]

She probably weighs less than I do.

And I weigh less than Frank.

And none of us are particularly portly...

-Crissa

Frank weights nearly double what I do, so there's a solid chance that I weigh less than all of you.

Quadriplegic amputee counts as cheating. Get to the back of the line.

I'm just that twiggy. Skin & Bone as they say. Srsly, one of my good friends in HS nicknamed me "Twiggy"

Sidenote: Every girl I've dated has weighed more than me and those girls would be considered skinny by most standards.

[angelfromanotherpin]

What system could be used (more or less as is), or made, to fit a game of roleplaying a moderately combat heavy (this is Warhammer, after all) game in the 41st Milleninium.

GURPS'll work, but you'd need both core books and Ultra-tech, which might be too much outlay for one game - so only do that if you'd be interested in more GURPS later.

Otherwise, I do all my Warhammer gaming in With Great Power..., but that's kind of an acquired taste.

[Elennsar]

My problem with modifying DH is that I'm not familiar enough with it (or design at all, but that's seperate) to feel comfortable adjusting it.

GURPS is highly tempting (do own the core books and can get ultratech thanks to a friend), but point totals are a problem. 200 points is not Larger than Life Hero. It is pretty close to "Hey, pretty skilled knight."

Of course, this assumes that a 14 is "good", but not "great". Even so...you'd probably need 300-400 points to represent someone with a lot of abilities.

That's a guess, of course.

Necromunda...not familiar enough, don't own it.

So...that leaves modifying DH, making something up (helllppp), or GURPS (hellllppp, but not as bad.)

Thanks for the comments, all.

And what is With Great Power...?

[Koumei]

Friends have outright called me anorexic in the past. I imagine that once I stop being a lazy bitch and get some proper exercise, I'll spring back into being very thin and underweight, unless the martial arts puts some muscle on me. Anyway...

making something up (helllppp)

If you think I can put something together in under a week, gimme' a Hell Yeah.

[Leress]

If you think I can put something together in under a week, gimme' a Hell Yeah.

Hell Yeah!!!

[Ravengm]

2) Percentile dice. Somehow, that bothers me as a mechanic. I'd like to hear the feedback of those who have studied this more than I have on how they work so far as representing chance and skill and such, however.

Percentile dice can be exactly the same as a d20. Just make it so that nothing can give a bonus that's not in 5% increments, and you've made basically the same die.

[Elennsar]

That's not the problem. Its the "roll percentile dice and roll ____ relative to skill."

So, you roll 0-9 for the tens place and 0-9 for the ones place.

And you get 43. Or 34. Or something. Its weird.

Rolling a d20...if I'm rolling Xd under skill, I'll stick with GURPS.

[Username17]

We had a decent discussion about making your own 40k game Here.

I don't have experience with Dark Heresy. Inquisitor was never finished and deeply unsatisfying. It looks like they were about half-way through making the game, hit some snags, and then just published rather than even attempting to solve any problems. It's like GW is literally fucking you in your eye socket while you're reading it. It's actually why I never picked up and read a copy of Dark Heresy.

-Username17

[Koumei]

I forgot how incomplete Inquisitor was. All I really remember is that it has a lot of charts and stuff, there are many different things you can buy (I'm a fan of weapon mods and special ammo types. I cannot explain why), and the battle with the Space Marine.

Incidentally, you could also use the Maid rules, with the master being the Inquisitor and the "maids" all being the acolytes. But the system is more than a little simplistic, and doesn't work for GrimDark.

So, this game is called Inquisitorial Stormtroopers for now. The group of PCs, being the helpers of the Inquisitor, can be called a Cell.

So, let's say you have a cell of six people.
*Acolyte: this trainee Inquisitor has a lot of special knowledges and expensive equipment. Chances are they also can either interrogate really well or are a good leader.

*Assassin: from the officio assassanorum no less. So either they are decent with a pistol, amazing with a sniper rifle and good at hiding, or they are a drug-fuelled close-combat/short range maniac, or they are a master of stealth and social skills and are fairly good in close combat. The anti-psyker wouldn't work in a party, due to causing nausea, fear and headaches to his teammates.

*Commissar: this could also be a priest or maybe even a pious member of nobility. They know stuff, they have good quality gear, they have leadership abilities and can channel faith.

*Psyker: The powers will vary for this character. They might pick hypnosis and "become stupid for a moment" powers, or they might have an energy forcefield and lightning fists. Or maybe they make shit explode, or can turn invisible and climb walls. The character shouldn't be able to do all of these, but they should have the choice at creation.

*Tech-Priest: built-in weapons and armour. The ability to repair and maintain equipment, set-up mines and turrets, use heavy weapons and of course, talk with machinery. All good. Also, the built-in bio-systems make this character a master at surviving.

*Soldier/Arbiter: A trained medic, also with scouting abilities and basic stealth training. Probably good at setting up ambushes and knowing where enemies are likely to be hiding. Oh, and they have some good weapons they know how to use. Whereas the Acolyte has a special electric rack for dragging information out of people, this guy might just use the ginger beer trick.

What if we only have three players?
*So, one cell has the Acolyte, tech-priest and assassin. The other cell has the commissar, psyker and soldier. That means that both groups have access to some degree of leadership and/or interrogation skills, as well as knowledges about a few things. Both groups have people specialised in fighting, and everyone can at least carry their own weight in a fight. They also each have some ability of either healing, or maintaining their gear (including patching armour up), or getting past other challenges.

See? It's pretty easy so far.

[bosssmiley]

Dark Heresy
Mutant Chronicles
Fading Suns
SLA Industries
HOL

All work as a basis for GRIMDARK scifi settings.

[angelfromanotherpin]

And what is With Great Power...?

WGP is a weirdo indie-style rpg designed to simulate Stan Lee's silver age superhero stories. However, it can easily be re-skinned into other genres. It pretty strictly enforces a story arc where the PCs get their butts handed to them in the first two acts, then make a comeback in the third. It's really difficult (but possible) for the PCs to actually lose the story arc, so the question is what they'll lose in the process. I've used it for pulp-style Cthulhu, Warhammer Fantasy, Warhammer 40K, and an Alien one-shot. I'm a big fan.

On the other hand, it is a weirdo indie-style rpg that doesn't have any of the usual attribute scores or skill lists, or tactical stuff, which I know is a deal-breaker for a lot of people.

[Elennsar]

As a detail nut, not my taste. Interesting set up to play, maybe. But not something I'd want to use more than I could avoid it.

As for: Mutant Chronicles
Fading Suns
SLA Industries
HOL

Don't know any of these in any meaningful detail.

And as stated, I'd like something with a little less emphasis on "grimdark". Yes, this is a grim and dark setting. However, I'd like the PCs to be able to make a difference, not fail miserably on simple stuff because even if you're amazing good and attempting something at the lowest difficulty level, you're likely to have a chance of failure.

60% + 30% (task difficulty) = you fail 10% of the time on anything you're asked for a roll on. Ew, Dark Heresy makers, ew.

If "normal" (no modifiers) is really "muddy, bloody, etc, etc.", I'd at least like tasks that are simple to be routine without having to overrule the system's "roll for this".

At least it isn't as bad as Decipher's LotR game, which deserves its own thread to mock in regards to health levels and etc. Seperate discussion, however.

So the question I have at the moment...classes? And if yes, how many levels?

It sounds like we have distinct ability sets here, which probably means that an Acolyte has a list of only-for-you and a Commissar has its own list etc.

[Koumei]

The trick about not having the PCs fail and die all the time is that it's not even a requirement for GrimDark: GrimDark is over the top. On purpose. So, you give the feeling that whatever world they're on is pretty shitty. Hive worlds are awesome for this, because they're giant slums nailed together, with ankle-high toxic/radioactive sludge, knee-high rubbish and unhealthy smog layers so thick that the easiest way to clear them is with a flamer.

Oh, and occasionally there's rain. And it's black, and sizzles against the skin. Also, most people are either diseased and malnourished, or they're mutants and hardened criminals.

You can of course scale any of those factors back. Hell, you could even have a hive world that is clean, in theory. But it'd still feel oppressive, with enormous buildings, not much walking space, and many posters and statues reminding everyone to worship the Emperor.

There are also the Deathworlds, of course, which basically work like very old computer games: anything can kill you if you touch it. There seriously are giant fly traps that eat people, and spiders do travel in packs (with scouts and heavy support), and yes, there are drop bears.

---

Anyway, there probably would be distinct ability sets, with a little bit of overlap here and there. So class-based is likely the way to go, even if it's a flexible class-based thing where you have a number of abilities to choose from (Dark Heresy) as opposed to "Now you get this" (d20).

Let's look at a quick basic mission for what kinds of abilities they have:
The group has been asked to go to the mines and put an end to the rebellion of the mutant miners. Also, they need to figure out who is actually stirring them up and put a stop to it.

So, chances are they decide "We'll grab a few miners and question them." or "Miners are stupid. The leaders would have to be there at all times, so let's just go there now." Upon arrival, they find a barricade. Yes, there are a couple of people with shotguns behind said barricade.

Perhaps the psyker can use TK or fire to destroy it, or can hypnotise the guards while the others work on it. The tech-priest can probably set up a melta-bomb or otherwise tear it apart quickly. A commissar or acolyte would probably have to try intimidating the guards into backing down, or providing some other kind of support. The soldier whips out a heavy bolter and the barricade (made of wood and crappy metal) ceases to exist. The assassin either picks off the guards from behind the barricade, with only tiny gaps to shoot through (Vindicare), convinces them she's one of them, gets behind, then kills them (Callidus) or charges and seriously rips a hole through it, before opening a can o' whuppass on the guards (Eversor).

To a greater or lesser degree, anyone can *probably* do something here. The only issue is that if *everyone* tries something, they could get in each other's way. Still, no-one is left saying "I can't do anything, I skip my turn".

Once in there, it turns out to be a dimly lit maze. There might be giant rats, and there will be miners. These miners are mutants, and specifically are big, strong and stupid. Their hides are like leather, too. Basically, they're ogryn. I have full confidence in everyone being able to fight - we've more or less established that. Bonus points in that some members can also grant bonuses to others/penalise enemies, or help heal after the fight, or whatever.

Questioning a mutant shouldn't be particularly hard, and basically they get "The priests are leading us!" And that's all the mutants know.

(Side quest: they can go kick down the doors in the nearest cathedral and shout at priests there, only to find out they have nothing to do with it.)

Hey, look at that, someone sabotaged the mine shaft. The lift doesn't work from the top - you have to activate it from the bottom. So, what do they do? The more athletic members can just climb down, using the cable or the walls, and from there pull the lever. Maybe the psyker can levitate down, maybe not. A tech-priest could seriously fix the lift from the top. An Eversor assassin leaps down, breaks a bone without noticing and pulls the lever, shouting "WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!" as he does it.

Eventually, they'll find a deacon of Khorne, well armed, preaching to a large group of miners. The cell is not noticed at this point, so what do they do?
-A good sharpshooter (soldier, Vindicare, perhaps a tech-priest or commissar) could try sniping him. Success throws the miners into a panic and they can more easily be convinced to surrender.

-Vindicare uses a good disguise, slinks up behind the deacon and "Fatality". Or uses the neural shredder on the already not-too-bright miners, switching them off. This makes the ensuing fight easier by a good measure.

-Eversor leaps into them, takes down half and, if the party doesn't provide support in a hard battle, is killed and explodes. No miners are left, the priest is then easy to kill.

-Use heavy weapons, gun down the miners. Some will survive and charge, hand-to-hand ensues. It works, but there are injuries sustained.

-The deacon's mind is switched off by the psyker and the commissar steps up and uses his own zeal and words to sway the miners back to the righteous cause of humanity.

-The arbiter shocks the deacon into passing out (with a shock weapon, that is.) or the acolyte uses a mancatcher to grab him. Bonus points for saying "You're fucking nicked, my son." In the brief moment before the miners riot, the commissar speaks up and sways at least half of them. The miners fight each other, the party backs their side, easy.

---

So basically, at every stage, everyone can do something. We want to give a wide enough selection of skills and abilities for this, but it's not too hard.

After this, they get rewarded. All injuries are treated, any severe injuries might result in limbs being replaced by cybernetics. Let them buy some awesome new gear, maybe have a little R&R as well. Mostly, any upgrades are going to be in equipment, and maybe improving the breadth of their skills - the psyker learns a new power, the tech-priest can now do a different techy thing (or figures out how to use the combat mechadendrites as precision tools), the soldier learns a new weapon trick (such as using a heavy flamer to destroy terrain and light the ground on fire to hinder foes), the commissar maybe gains a new faith power or command ability, the acolyte might gain a psychic power...

Small stuff. They shouldn't actually become outright more powerful, just more skilled, and with better equipment. This means that you can even set solid difficulty levels for their tasks - if you don't have numbers improving with levels, then the numbers can stay the same, so the difficulties can mostly stay the same.

---

Does this look good so far? I can shut up* if you like, but this not only helps for making a system from scratch, but also helps to highlight important points and could show that X system is perfect.

*Despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Elennsar]

So far, it looks pretty solid.

Couple of comments.

The problem is that there's "struggle" and then there's "why are you delusional enough to think acting will make a difference"?

Warhammer (in some overrepeated texts, like the "THERE IS ONLY WAR!" overemphasises the latter to the point where you wonder how you wonder how there's an Imperium at all.

As for characters and power: I'm not sure it would necessarily be a bad thing for characters to get more powerful, but it ought to be on the same general range.

So if the best possible bonus you can get at level 1 is +20, you might be able to get +30, but not +40.

As for classes: I'd sort of prefer to make a seperation between commissars and those who speak fiery words to stir men and those who can call upon ACTS OF GAWD.

Mind, given what we know of the Emperor, actually beinable to call on Him (as in actual my-faith-is-a-power) is probably rare enough and found in odd enough places that there's no reason it would be a class ability.

On the whole, good stuff. Everyone is useful in a fight, some people are specialized at combat, and most people can pull some trick to make things easier for the cell (or harder for the enemy, which works out as a different form of "easier for the cell").

Those who can't don't need tricks.

One thing I'd like to squeeze in is some sort of Rogue Trader/Desperado (to use Inquisitor's terms)...but I'm not sure how to do it.

[angelfromanotherpin]

If you can get a hold of it, it's really worth reading the original inspirations for WH40K before running a game set there. Judge Dredd, ABC Warrior, and particularly Nemesis the Warlock.

[Koumei]

Those things can most certainly be accommodated. The rogue trader has cool gear, and is likely an agile fighter with various dirty tricks. The rogue trader is the guy who decides to settle things with a good old fashioned "Queensbury rules" bareknuckle boxing match... only to slip brass knuckles into a pocket, and to slide an iron plate down the front of his shirt.

Also he has stuff to bribe people with, bribery being an actual ability. There's probably a custom weapon, too.

The commissar can focus on being a good fighter with command abilities and can whip people into a frenzy (literally or figuratively), and perhaps having actual faith powers can either be left out, be a special ability they can choose, or maybe allow for members of the Adepta Sororitas - but starting without the superior gear (see: power armour). So, an Adepta trainee or a member of the Order Dialogus (knowledge, mechanics and diplomacy) or Hospitaler (really good medical abilities, can also use various poison weapons) could use faith powers.

For the right feel, I suppose the trick is to think small. For instance, if they succeed with the mine thing, actually have the place stabilise, as the (raw material) was fuelling (important industry), so with the place now functioning properly, crime lowers a bit and exports continue. The place is objectively better than it was. Mention how this has allowed them to send more weapons/troops over to the battle on (planet).

Then the next mission or two can also result in benefits to the battle on (planet), and at the end, either mention that the battle was won, the world reclaimed, and X billion lives saved, or say that the battle is in such a condition that all it needs for victory is for the team to infiltrate X and cripple the enemy command. The enemy fleet is stalled/has to go home, and an Imperial sector is safe for long enough to rebuild and toughen their defences.

So make their successes have consequences that carry on and help, in small ways that add up, the overall goal.

So, for a system, do you personally like levels? That's really what matters here, because it can work with or without them.

Likewise, what kind of scale do you want the dice rolls to be on? d20+modifiers against target, 2d10+modifiers against target, d100+modifiers against target, modified rolls, 7d4-modifiers against target+2d12, looked up on a chart that can further be modified by X?

Because it sounds like you're going to be running this. So it's important that you like the way it works, as well as that it does what it's supposed to.